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#2236888 - 02/24/14 04:25 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 725
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
After spending an entire weekend with guitarists that are not satisfied with the status quo on what sounds in tune or not in recording sessions, I really think the piano tuning "bullies" that want only ET and flat trebles will find what they did in these times mocked as being "period tuning" in the future. A reason to want to buy new recordings that actually have the piano sounding appealing to the listener!


Having read a little research on inharmonicity in guitar strings, guitarists have their own issues trying to get everything in tune when stuck with frets (usually fretted in ET, though not necessarily taking into account the changes in iH when they choose different wrapped strings). I can see why a guitarist would practice on a fretless guitar. They would presumably learn to hear some 'better' quality of intervals, which would allow them to slightly warp the fretted pitch on the fly.

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#2236945 - 02/24/14 05:56 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: prout
Hi Alfredo,

I used the phrase 'pure octaves' without being clear. Sorry. I do not know yet what makes a 'pure octave', other than to say when I hear it, I like it, though, as rxd pointed out using students, I can hear it as in tune one moment and flat the next, depending on how I choose to hear it. Whether it is wide, or narrow with regard to a given partial, I cannot say.

With regard to the 'Trout', I was not concerned with how those upper octaves fit with the rest of the piano (heresy I know), only that they be it tune with themselves, whatever that means.

I am not in a position to judge the merits of stretching the upper treble to add brilliance and projection to the back row for a piano used as a solo instrument for a concerto. As a listener to a chamber recital of solo piano, I would not want brilliance in the upper end, I would want balance for a listener only metres away.

To all, please forgive these ramblings, I do not mean to offend.




Hi Prout,

I tend to believe what you say, your sense of "in tune", your hearing beats, your music practice and artistic experience, your general knowledge on instruments and their "problems", although... I know nothing about you... you "do not mean to offend".

I started playing guitar when I was five and gave concerts later on, perhaps that's why I cannot share some comments about playing guitar fretless. Yes, the board_fret "division" is not the optimum and I would have some ideas... Have you yourself ever played a fretless instrument?

On your own piano, do you have a personal/trusty pro piano technician?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2236965 - 02/24/14 06:31 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: prout
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
After spending an entire weekend with guitarists that are not satisfied with the status quo on what sounds in tune or not in recording sessions, I really think the piano tuning "bullies" that want only ET and flat trebles will find what they did in these times mocked as being "period tuning" in the future. A reason to want to buy new recordings that actually have the piano sounding appealing to the listener!


Having read a little research on inharmonicity in guitar strings, guitarists have their own issues trying to get everything in tune when stuck with frets (usually fretted in ET, though not necessarily taking into account the changes in iH when they choose different wrapped strings). I can see why a guitarist would practice on a fretless guitar. They would presumably learn to hear some 'better' quality of intervals, which would allow them to slightly warp the fretted pitch on the fly.


Hi Bill,

You wrote: ..."I really think the piano tuning "bullies" that want only ET and flat trebles will find what they did in these times mocked as being "period tuning" in the future. A reason to want to buy new recordings that actually have the piano sounding appealing to the listener!"

Should I believe you have a Time mismatch? Cannot you hear that what you are doing in 'these time' is being heard as "period tuning"? What is it, Bill, that obscures your view onto evolution?

Hi Prout,

You wrote: ..."I can see why a guitarist would practice on a fretless guitar. They would presumably learn to hear some 'better' quality of intervals, which would allow them to slightly warp the fretted pitch on the fly."...

Hmmm..., Yes, perhaps if that was demonstrated I would not think that that is nonsense.

Adjusting pitch on the fly (IMO) it is a false idea, a cliché, and perhaps a cheap_and _easy source of pride. And I think that you can understand that only if you have spent thousand of hours for refining intonation. Please note, nothing to do with pitch bending or tone emphasis, which I understand and appreciate, when it is the case.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2236973 - 02/24/14 06:48 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: alfredo capurso]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 725
k
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: prout
Hi Alfredo,

I used the phrase 'pure octaves' without being clear. Sorry. I do not know yet what makes a 'pure octave', other than to say when I hear it, I like it, though, as rxd pointed out using students, I can hear it as in tune one moment and flat the next, depending on how I choose to hear it. Whether it is wide, or narrow with regard to a given partial, I cannot say.

With regard to the 'Trout', I was not concerned with how those upper octaves fit with the rest of the piano (heresy I know), only that they be it tune with themselves, whatever that means.

I am not in a position to judge the merits of stretching the upper treble to add brilliance and projection to the back row for a piano used as a solo instrument for a concerto. As a listener to a chamber recital of solo piano, I would not want brilliance in the upper end, I would want balance for a listener only metres away.

To all, please forgive these ramblings, I do not mean to offend.




Hi Prout,

I tend to believe what you say, your sense of "in tune", your hearing beats, your music practice and artistic experience, your general knowledge on instruments and their "problems", although... I know nothing about you... you "do not mean to offend".

I started playing guitar when I was five and gave concerts later on, perhaps that's why I cannot share some comments about playing guitar fretless. Yes, the board_fret "division" is not the optimum and I would have some ideas... Have you yourself ever played a fretless instrument?

On your own piano, do you have a personal/trusty pro piano technician?

Regards, a.c.
.


Hi Alfredo,

I have never, sadly played an un fretted or a fretted (clavichord excepted) instrument, and I accept your knowledge and experience regarding the guitar.

Yes, I have a trusty piano tuner/technician. He plays cello as well, and is about to arrive at my home to rehearse.

Cheers

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#2236977 - 02/24/14 06:58 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Thank you for your reply, Prout, enjoy your rehearse.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2237540 - 02/25/14 05:00 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi All,

I think it is simply amazing how we can hear intervals by size, and how we are able to play "in tune" beyond any border, and any cultural heritage.

I am sure you will enjoy listening to these young, fabulous talents. I would only like to add that fretless (bow) instruments too have their constraints, four notes corresponding to four free strings which are tuned at a very precise pitch, so defining the (one) "pitch family" (fixed scale) relation. On this, you will understand than only one note (A4 or any other), once it is fixed, it is enough to define the 'pitch family' and the correct size (or... what it should be) for all intervals.

Mengla Huang (China)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc6MWufS1tM

Sayaka Shoji (Japan)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAkw_Wi4yIo

If possible, here after, things get more difficult... If you like, let me know your idea, what would happen with a fretless guitar?

Ning Feng (China)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBuBfLsf4xI

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2237577 - 02/25/14 06:14 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

It will have to be next life, perhaps a pianist, perhaps a violinist, still have to make up my mind. :-)

Have a good night.

MAXIM VENGEROV (Siberia)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luL1T1WQC2k
_________________________
alfredo

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#2237587 - 02/25/14 06:24 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: alfredo capurso]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1072
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Adjusting pitch on the fly (IMO) it is a false idea, a cliché, and perhaps a cheap_and _easy source of pride. And I think that you can understand that only if you have spent thousand of hours for refining intonation. Please note, nothing to do with pitch bending or tone emphasis, which I understand and appreciate, when it is the case.


Hi Alfredo,

I play trumpet professionally. We have slides on our valves that we push in and out depending on what note we are playing in what chord/key. This is not about pride or a cliche. It's about playing in tune.

Also, adjusting pitch on the fly is imperative if you want to play in tune with other musicians in an orchestra. Of course this is only possible if all the musicians have the same level of intonation skill. Otherwise, it is fruitless, and disheartening for those with a heightened sense of intonation.

Perhaps I misunderstand your comment?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2237594 - 02/25/14 06:31 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: alfredo capurso]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1072
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

I would only like to add that fretless (bow) instruments too have their constraints, four notes corresponding to four free strings which are tuned at a very precise pitch, so defining the (one) "pitch family" (fixed scale) relation. On this, you will understand than only one note (A4 or any other), once it is fixed, it is enough to define the 'pitch family' and the correct size (or... what it should be) for all intervals.
.


All open strings can be played as higher positions on the lower string, except the lowest string. That is how they get around playing a note that is on an open string, at a different frequency.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2237838 - 02/26/14 08:19 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 725
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

I would only like to add that fretless (bow) instruments too have their constraints, four notes corresponding to four free strings which are tuned at a very precise pitch, so defining the (one) "pitch family" (fixed scale) relation. On this, you will understand than only one note (A4 or any other), once it is fixed, it is enough to define the 'pitch family' and the correct size (or... what it should be) for all intervals.
.


All open strings can be played as higher positions on the lower string, except the lowest string. That is how they get around playing a note that is on an open string, at a different frequency.

And the open string has a different set of partial amplitudes than the stopped string, so sounds quite different.

Top
#2237845 - 02/26/14 08:39 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Alfredo,

I think the "period" we are in now will ultimately prove to be the shortest of all periods, not the ultimate end to the evolution of tuning.

What I have learned recently is that the guitar, with only 6 strings and constructed the way that it usually is, actually prevents sensitive guitarists from ever playing in tune in any key. The solution to the problem is very complex and just as with piano tuning, there is no single solution that works for all circumstances.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2237880 - 02/26/14 10:12 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Mark, Prout, Bill, thank you.

I have to go out again right now, hope to be able to reply later, this evening.

Regards, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2237990 - 02/26/14 02:23 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 725
.


Edited by prout (02/26/14 10:37 PM)

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#2238003 - 02/26/14 03:00 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Adjusting pitch on the fly (IMO) it is a false idea, a cliché, and perhaps a cheap_and _easy source of pride. And I think that you can understand that only if you have spent thousand of hours for refining intonation. Please note, nothing to do with pitch bending or tone emphasis, which I understand and appreciate, when it is the case.


Hi Alfredo,

I play trumpet professionally. We have slides on our valves that we push in and out depending on what note we are playing in what chord/key. This is not about pride or a cliche. It's about playing in tune.

Also, adjusting pitch on the fly is imperative if you want to play in tune with other musicians in an orchestra. Of course this is only possible if all the musicians have the same level of intonation skill. Otherwise, it is fruitless, and disheartening for those with a heightened sense of intonation.

Perhaps I misunderstand your comment?


Hi Mark,

You wrote: ..."I play trumpet professionally. We have slides on our valves that we push in and out depending on what note we are playing in what chord/key. This is not about pride or a cliche. It's about playing in tune."...

I am glad to know that you too are a musician, in fact you seem to know what "playing in tune" means. It was my fault, my comment there is ambiguous, perhaps the subject too is ambiguous and that might be how false ideas and clichés take shape.

So, we do use the slides in order to sound "in tune", because we want improve "intonation", since on a trumpet some notes may not sound correct, as you say depending on the key. It is the same with a saxophone, there too you might need to use your larynx and/or alternative fingering.

..."Also, adjusting pitch on the fly is imperative if you want to play in tune with other musicians in an orchestra. Of course this is only possible if all the musicians have the same level of intonation skill. Otherwise, it is fruitless, and disheartening for those with a heightened sense of intonation."...

I agree, and I said that here, not long ago (although in a different way), if we do not have "the same level of intonation skill", both our slides and any pitch adjusting would be useless.

The false idea, the cliché is that it is believed that some musicians are enabled to adjust pitch on the fly in order to match three or more partials of a complex chord simultaneously, like if for those who can adjust pitch on the fly the problem related to multiple combination of partials did not exist.

Instead, when we play a complex chord, our (and any musician's) target can only be a euphonious "whole". This stays for pianos and all fixed scale instruments as well as for any ensemble where 'pitch' apparently can be adjusted.

For me then, it is simply as you say, "...those with a heightened sense of intonation", want to sound in tune, that's why they happen to adjust pitch on the fly.

Let me know if the above explains my point better.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2238035 - 02/26/14 04:23 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1072
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Yes, quite clear.

Thank you.

I am not familiar with the claim that one can match higher partials at will on a wind instrument. That was on this forum?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2238068 - 02/26/14 05:17 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Thanks Mark, many times I feel insecure with my English.

If you are logged in, you can go to this page (30), where we last started discussing on that:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1351184/30.html

Look for:

#1865206 - March 20, 2012 11:33 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]

Cheers
_________________________
alfredo

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#2238075 - 02/26/14 05:36 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

I would only like to add that fretless (bow) instruments too have their constraints, four notes corresponding to four free strings which are tuned at a very precise pitch, so defining the (one) "pitch family" (fixed scale) relation. On this, you will understand than only one note (A4 or any other), once it is fixed, it is enough to define the 'pitch family' and the correct size (or... what it should be) for all intervals.
.


All open strings can be played as higher positions on the lower string, except the lowest string. That is how they get around playing a note that is on an open string, at a different frequency.


Yes, certainly true, but I do not think they would look for "different frequency"; I tend to relate the 'option' you mention with 'agile fingering'.

In any case, here I would like to insist on one point: one note, be it the lower (you mention) or what ever, one note (i.e. one fixed pitch) is enough to determine the 'pitch family' constraint.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2238108 - 02/26/14 07:01 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7275
Loc: France
<hello

just thinking of that discussion, <i tune a few notes at the beginning of the undamped section, by listening to the nicer quality of the begin of tone, and without any reference.
It worked better than expected.
Then with 2 fingers I damped totally the 12th and 15th below the tune note and perceive a small difference when the (normally dampe ) notes where really stopped by the fingers.

Interesting was the perception of the sympathetic vibration of the damped notes when the fingers where approaching , barely touching the wire, they react clearly despite the dampers.

<<<<tonewise the difference is barely noticed but more sparkle with the notes "free" than without.

<in the end the quality of the ringing in treble shows me that something is wrong on one of those notes below 8th 12th 15th.

verified everytime.

<<<<dont know what it have to do with justness but with more ringing, the justness is probably less in question.

Regards
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2238116 - 02/26/14 07:26 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Olek]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 725
Originally Posted By: Olek
<hello

just thinking of that discussion, <i tune a few notes at the beginning of the undamped section, by listening to the nicer quality of the begin of tone, and without any reference.
It worked better than expected.
Then with 2 fingers I damped totally the 12th and 15th below the tune note and perceive a small difference when the (normally dampe ) notes where really stopped by the fingers.

Interesting was the perception of the sympathetic vibration of the damped notes when the fingers where approaching , barely touching the wire, they react clearly despite the dampers.

<<<<tonewise the difference is barely noticed but more sparkle with the notes "free" than without.

<in the end the quality of the ringing in treble shows me that something is wrong on one of those notes below 8th 12th 15th.

verified everytime.

<<<<dont know what it have to do with justness but with more ringing, the justness is probably less in question.

Regards


Excellent observation. Thank you. I will test this.

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#2238164 - 02/26/14 09:44 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: alfredo capurso]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Adjusting pitch on the fly (IMO) it is a false idea, a cliché, and perhaps a cheap_and _easy source of pride. And I think that you can understand that only if you have spent thousand of hours for refining intonation. Please note, nothing to do with pitch bending or tone emphasis, which I understand and appreciate, when it is the case.


Hi Alfredo,

I play trumpet professionally. We have slides on our valves that we push in and out depending on what note we are playing in what chord/key. This is not about pride or a cliche. It's about playing in tune.

Also, adjusting pitch on the fly is imperative if you want to play in tune with other musicians in an orchestra. Of course this is only possible if all the musicians have the same level of intonation skill. Otherwise, it is fruitless, and disheartening for those with a heightened sense of intonation.

Perhaps I misunderstand your comment?




The false idea, the cliché is that it is believed that some musicians are enabled to adjust pitch on the fly in order to match three or more partials of a complex chord simultaneously, like if for those who can adjust pitch on the fly the problem related to multiple combination of partials did not exist.

.


Since Mark mentioned the trumpet, inharmonicity levels on that instrument are non existent. That is to say that it is harmonic as opposed to inharmonic. This means that the partials are all in true mathematical relationship to each other. This is true of most western musical instruments. The only Inharmonic instruments are, of course, the piano and some higher tensioned string instruments and to a much lesser extent the larger saxophones and the human voice, according to Arthur Benade (Horns, Strings and Harmony, Dover books).

This, inevitably means that all the partials line up in true mathematical proportion. If you line up one partial with a partial of another note, then all the rest of the partials will line up automatically.

It should be noted that some instruments tend to play sharp in the upper octaves unless expertly controled. This is not the same thing as inharmonicity.

All of Arthur Benade's books should be required reading for all musicians and tuners. Fundamentals of musical acoustics is another well written book.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2238180 - 02/26/14 10:36 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: rxd]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 280
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: rxd

Since Mark mentioned the trumpet, inharmonicity levels on that instrument are non existent. That is to say that it is harmonic as opposed to inharmonic. This means that the partials are all in true mathematical relationship to each other. This is true of most western musical instruments. The only Inharmonic instruments are, of course, the piano and some higher tensioned string instruments and to a much lesser extent the larger saxophones and the human voice, according to Arthur Benade (Horns, Strings and Harmony, Dover books)...

The saxophone and the human voice do not have inharmonicity in the same sense that a piano does. What they both have are resonances that not related harmonically. But you cannot excite these resonances into oscillation simultaneously the way a piano string can produce multiple unlocked partials. What happens in a saxophone is that the oscillations alternately jump between several fundamental frequencies, giving an unstable sound. If you manage to play (or sing) a single stable fundamental pitch, you will see a stable periodic waveform on an oscilloscope. That implies the harmonics are locked to the fundamental. When you look at a piano sound on an oscilloscope, you will see an almost-periodic waveform where the higher partials "travel", riding on the fundamental waveform. That is visually what inharmonicity looks like.

In general, the only instruments that can exhibit piano-like inharmonicity are instruments where all the energy is put into the system at once (the hammer striking the string) and then the resonances are free to resonate independently. This includes all struck string instruments, bells, and xylophones. Interestingly, this implies that a violin can exhibit inharmonicity when it is played pizzicato, but not when it is played with a bow.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#2238181 - 02/26/14 10:36 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 725
Hello all,

I wonder if you could listen to some of these arpeggios in Young and tell me your impressions of the octaves. I have my own opinions of the octaves, but would like criticism so I can better understand my perception of intervals. Please be candid. I can take it! It's the only way for me to improve.

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#2238222 - 02/27/14 12:01 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Robert Scott]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Robert Scott
Originally Posted By: rxd

Since Mark mentioned the trumpet, inharmonicity levels on that instrument are non existent. That is to say that it is harmonic as opposed to inharmonic. This means that the partials are all in true mathematical relationship to each other. This is true of most western musical instruments. The only Inharmonic instruments are, of course, the piano and some higher tensioned string instruments and to a much lesser extent the larger saxophones and the human voice, according to Arthur Benade (Horns, Strings and Harmony, Dover books)...

The saxophone and the human voice do not have inharmonicity in the same sense that a piano does. What they both have are resonances that not related harmonically. But you cannot excite these resonances into oscillation simultaneously the way a piano string can produce multiple unlocked partials. What happens in a saxophone is that the oscillations alternately jump between several fundamental frequencies, giving an unstable sound. If you manage to play (or sing) a single stable fundamental pitch, you will see a stable periodic waveform on an oscilloscope. That implies the harmonics are locked to the fundamental. When you look at a piano sound on an oscilloscope, you will see an almost-periodic waveform where the higher partials "travel", riding on the fundamental waveform. That is visually what inharmonicity looks like.

In general, the only instruments that can exhibit piano-like inharmonicity are instruments where all the energy is put into the system at once (the hammer striking the string) and then the resonances are free to resonate independently. This includes all struck string instruments, bells, and xylophones. Interestingly, this implies that a violin can exhibit inharmonicity when it is played pizzicato, but not when it is played with a bow.


Thanks, Robert, I don't have a copy of Benade here but that may be what he essentially mean. He used the word inharmonicity at that point and spoke of non harmonic resonances in another chapter. Are you familiar with that book?

I was about to mention about the difference I had observed between pizz and arco, particularly on the double bass (being also a double bass player) but edited it out as being too anecdotal but you have explained for me my purely empirical experience.
My main point stands, though. That most other western musical instruments do not exhibit anywhere near the inharmonicity that the piano does, of any. Consequently the partials line up more mathematically true and that the partials between two notes can all be lined up in a way that is impossible on the piano.

I just checked the banjo I have here and there is a slight amount of inharmonicity on the b string at least.

There was an article in the PTG magazine in the early seventies by two people in Portland Or. that measured inharmonicity before and after some extensive tone regulation. They published measurable changes. I've forgotten the details but your post lends credence to that study.

I have been conducting some casual studies as I tune various pianos about the 8th partial and it's use in tuning. I get slightly different readings when I pluck the string than when I play it. I sometimes ghost the partial and sometimes touch the string at the 8th partial. I had put this down to the casualness of my observation but there may be something to the style of playing, particularly in view of the fact that the string is struck at the eighth partial node point. Could a heavier strike affect that partial more than others? Intuitively, it seems to me it could. Sometimes the triple octave reads flatter than the double octave.

On the subject pf triple octaves, Starting at Bb6, The triple octave starts to be noisy, getting progressively worse so that at around g7 there is a beat rate of 10-12 per second between g6 and g7 when g6 is tuned as a triple octave from g3. This renders the triple octave unusable in the top octave if a harsh version of what Bill and I were talking about in the Grieg is to be avoided. Far worse than any of the examples he cited.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2238280 - 02/27/14 02:45 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: rxd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Adjusting pitch on the fly (IMO) it is a false idea, a cliché, and perhaps a cheap_and _easy source of pride. And I think that you can understand that only if you have spent thousand of hours for refining intonation. Please note, nothing to do with pitch bending or tone emphasis, which I understand and appreciate, when it is the case.


Hi Alfredo,

I play trumpet professionally. We have slides on our valves that we push in and out depending on what note we are playing in what chord/key. This is not about pride or a cliche. It's about playing in tune.

Also, adjusting pitch on the fly is imperative if you want to play in tune with other musicians in an orchestra. Of course this is only possible if all the musicians have the same level of intonation skill. Otherwise, it is fruitless, and disheartening for those with a heightened sense of intonation.

Perhaps I misunderstand your comment?




The false idea, the cliché is that it is believed that some musicians are enabled to adjust pitch on the fly in order to match three or more partials of a complex chord simultaneously, like if for those who can adjust pitch on the fly the problem related to multiple combination of partials did not exist.

.


Since Mark mentioned the trumpet, inharmonicity levels on that instrument are non existent. That is to say that it is harmonic as opposed to inharmonic. This means that the partials are all in true mathematical relationship to each other. This is true of most western musical instruments. The only Inharmonic instruments are, of course, the piano and some higher tensioned string instruments and to a much lesser extent the larger saxophones and the human voice, according to Arthur Benade (Horns, Strings and Harmony, Dover books).

This, inevitably means that all the partials line up in true mathematical proportion. If you line up one partial with a partial of another note, then all the rest of the partials will line up automatically.

It should be noted that some instruments tend to play sharp in the upper octaves unless expertly controled. This is not the same thing as inharmonicity.

All of Arthur Benade's books should be required reading for all musicians and tuners. Fundamentals of musical acoustics is another well written book.


Hi Brother,

Please, would you tell me what you wanted to say about complex chords and multiple combination of partials? Or perhaps you were on a different point? Perhaps... whether saxophones and trumpets will produce the same pitch when they play the same note simultaneously? In any case, producing the same pitch does not necessarely mean being in tune :-)

Hope we All agree.


Edited by alfredo capurso (02/27/14 06:41 PM)
Edit Reason: corrections
_________________________
alfredo

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#2238438 - 02/27/14 12:23 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Alfredo,

I think the "period" we are in now will ultimately prove to be the shortest of all periods, not the ultimate end to the evolution of tuning.

What I have learned recently is that the guitar, with only 6 strings and constructed the way that it usually is, actually prevents sensitive guitarists from ever playing in tune in any key. The solution to the problem is very complex and just as with piano tuning, there is no single solution that works for all circumstances.


Hi Bill,

You wrote: ..."I think the "period" we are in now will ultimately prove to be the shortest of all periods, not the ultimate end to the evolution of tuning."..

Hmmm... I think we should make a distinction: 'artistic tuning' might be literarily infinite, so it is not possible to come to an end. See the dozens of ways in which the octave has been divided and arranged, from the past centuries to these days, see recent microtonal divisions and other experimentations that have to do with 'tuning'.

Tuning the semitonal division, and tuning it so that the scale sounds euphonious... it is a different ballgame.

The number of semitones (12) is not arbitrary, it is dictated by the third partial, i.e. by the so called circle of fifths.

The problem, indeed, was to combine the first two prime numbers, but now that problem has been solved (believe that) once and for all.

..."The solution to the problem is very complex and just as with piano tuning, there is no single solution that works for all circumstances."...

Yes, you are right, it would depend on "circumstances". But, if the circumstances are minimally depicting a 12-tones scale, a sound 'whole', intonation and the sense of 'in tune' we (tuners and musicians) can share, and the widest 'color' palette defined by rates of beats (intervals beat-frequencies, that we can sense and share as well), then the solution is one (if you prefer, single).

As you say, the solution was complex: we needed to depart from the most ancient axiom, the pure octave; then we needed to look for two 'proportional constants', not just one; and we needed to vision the 'color palette' as beat-curves, chromatic intervals beat curves interweaved together.

I cannot explain why you do not want to know more about that, but... You are doing very well with your tunings and quasi-ET via Marpurg and, personally, I believe that new generations of tuners will be able to do even better.

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (02/27/14 06:38 PM)
Edit Reason: corrections
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2238537 - 02/27/14 02:51 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: alfredo capurso]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 725
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Alfredo,

I think the "period" we are in now will ultimately prove to be the shortest of all periods, not the ultimate end to the evolution of tuning.

What I have learned recently is that the guitar, with only 6 strings and constructed the way that it usually is, actually prevents sensitive guitarists from ever playing in tune in any key. The solution to the problem is very complex and just as with piano tuning, there is no single solution that works for all circumstances.


Hi Bill,

You wrote: ..."I think the "period" we are in now will ultimately prove to be the shortest of all periods, not the ultimate end to the evolution of tuning."..

Hmmm... I think we should make a distinction: 'artistic tuning' might be literarily infinite, so it is not possible to come to an end. See dozens on ways in which the octave has been divided an arranged, from the past centuries to these days, see recent microtonal divisions and other experimentations that have to do with tuning.

Tuning the semitonal division, and tuning it so that the scale sounds euphonious is a different ballgame.

The number of semitones (12) is not arbitrary, it is dictated by the third partial, i.e. by the so called circle of fifths.

The problem, indeed, was to combine the first two prime numbers, but now that has been solved (believe that) once and for all.

..."The solution to the problem is very complex and just as with piano tuning, there is no single solution that works for all circumstances."...

Yes, you are right, it would depend on "circumstances". But, if the circumstances are minimally depicting a 12-tones scale, a sound 'whole', intonation and the sense of 'in tune' we (tuners and musicians) can share, and the widest 'color' palette defined by rates of beats (intervals beat-frequencies, that we can sense and share as well), then the solution is one (if you prefer, single).

As you say, the solution was complex: we needed to depart from the most ancient axiom, the pure octave; then we needed to look for two 'proportional constants', not just one; and we needed to vision the 'color palette' as beat-curves, chromatic intervals beat curves interweaved together.

I cannot explain way you do not want to know more about that, but... You are doing very well with your tunings and quasi-ET via Marpurg and, personally, I believe that new generations of tuners will be able to do even better.

Regards, a.c.
.





Hello Alfredo,

I assume when you speak of moving away from the octave (defined as a 2:1 ratio of frequencies, not partials)in order to create a more euphonious tuning, you are referring to tuning the piano. While I haven't done a thought experiment on tuning an organ with octaves that are not in a 2:1 frequency ratio, it seems superficially to not be a solution, since the partials are, in general, integer relationships.

Top
#2238711 - 02/27/14 07:36 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: prout
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Alfredo,

I think the "period" we are in now will ultimately prove to be the shortest of all periods, not the ultimate end to the evolution of tuning.

What I have learned recently is that the guitar, with only 6 strings and constructed the way that it usually is, actually prevents sensitive guitarists from ever playing in tune in any key. The solution to the problem is very complex and just as with piano tuning, there is no single solution that works for all circumstances.


Hi Bill,

You wrote: ..."I think the "period" we are in now will ultimately prove to be the shortest of all periods, not the ultimate end to the evolution of tuning."..

Hmmm... I think we should make a distinction: 'artistic tuning' might be literarily infinite, so it is not possible to come to an end. See dozens on ways in which the octave has been divided an arranged, from the past centuries to these days, see recent microtonal divisions and other experimentations that have to do with tuning.

Tuning the semitonal division, and tuning it so that the scale sounds euphonious is a different ballgame.

The number of semitones (12) is not arbitrary, it is dictated by the third partial, i.e. by the so called circle of fifths.

The problem, indeed, was to combine the first two prime numbers, but now that has been solved (believe that) once and for all.

..."The solution to the problem is very complex and just as with piano tuning, there is no single solution that works for all circumstances."...

Yes, you are right, it would depend on "circumstances". But, if the circumstances are minimally depicting a 12-tones scale, a sound 'whole', intonation and the sense of 'in tune' we (tuners and musicians) can share, and the widest 'color' palette defined by rates of beats (intervals beat-frequencies, that we can sense and share as well), then the solution is one (if you prefer, single).

As you say, the solution was complex: we needed to depart from the most ancient axiom, the pure octave; then we needed to look for two 'proportional constants', not just one; and we needed to vision the 'color palette' as beat-curves, chromatic intervals beat curves interweaved together.

I cannot explain way you do not want to know more about that, but... You are doing very well with your tunings and quasi-ET via Marpurg and, personally, I believe that new generations of tuners will be able to do even better.

Regards, a.c.
.





Hello Alfredo,

I assume when you speak of moving away from the octave (defined as a 2:1 ratio of frequencies, not partials)in order to create a more euphonious tuning, you are referring to tuning the piano. While I haven't done a thought experiment on tuning an organ with octaves that are not in a 2:1 frequency ratio, it seems superficially to not be a solution, since the partials are, in general, integer relationships.


Hi Prout,

You wrote: ..."I assume when you speak of moving away from the octave (defined as a 2:1 ratio of frequencies, not partials)in order to create a more euphonious tuning, you are referring to tuning the piano."...

Not really, what I wrote above is not referring to 'tuning the piano' only, but tuning in general. I now realize that I was lucky to be enabled to pursue intonation on a piano, but there I went for what sounds in tune, for what sounds right to my ears; yes, that was and is on a piano, but my ear (for what I can say) makes no difference, it could be a voice or an oboe.

..."..While I haven't done a thought experiment on tuning an organ with octaves that are not in a 2:1 frequency ratio, it seems superficially to not be a solution, since the partials are, in general, integer relationships."...

I am not sure I get your point, Prout, which are the partials, which is the integer relationship that should be favored?

Would you like to expand on that?
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2238767 - 02/27/14 10:25 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: alfredo capurso]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 725
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: prout
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Alfredo,

I think the "period" we are in now will ultimately prove to be the shortest of all periods, not the ultimate end to the evolution of tuning.

What I have learned recently is that the guitar, with only 6 strings and constructed the way that it usually is, actually prevents sensitive guitarists from ever playing in tune in any key. The solution to the problem is very complex and just as with piano tuning, there is no single solution that works for all circumstances.


Hi Bill,

You wrote: ..."I think the "period" we are in now will ultimately prove to be the shortest of all periods, not the ultimate end to the evolution of tuning."..

Hmmm... I think we should make a distinction: 'artistic tuning' might be literarily infinite, so it is not possible to come to an end. See dozens on ways in which the octave has been divided an arranged, from the past centuries to these days, see recent microtonal divisions and other experimentations that have to do with tuning.

Tuning the semitonal division, and tuning it so that the scale sounds euphonious is a different ballgame.

The number of semitones (12) is not arbitrary, it is dictated by the third partial, i.e. by the so called circle of fifths.

The problem, indeed, was to combine the first two prime numbers, but now that has been solved (believe that) once and for all.

..."The solution to the problem is very complex and just as with piano tuning, there is no single solution that works for all circumstances."...

Yes, you are right, it would depend on "circumstances". But, if the circumstances are minimally depicting a 12-tones scale, a sound 'whole', intonation and the sense of 'in tune' we (tuners and musicians) can share, and the widest 'color' palette defined by rates of beats (intervals beat-frequencies, that we can sense and share as well), then the solution is one (if you prefer, single).

As you say, the solution was complex: we needed to depart from the most ancient axiom, the pure octave; then we needed to look for two 'proportional constants', not just one; and we needed to vision the 'color palette' as beat-curves, chromatic intervals beat curves interweaved together.

I cannot explain way you do not want to know more about that, but... You are doing very well with your tunings and quasi-ET via Marpurg and, personally, I believe that new generations of tuners will be able to do even better.

Regards, a.c.
.





Hello Alfredo,

I assume when you speak of moving away from the octave (defined as a 2:1 ratio of frequencies, not partials)in order to create a more euphonious tuning, you are referring to tuning the piano. While I haven't done a thought experiment on tuning an organ with octaves that are not in a 2:1 frequency ratio, it seems superficially to not be a solution, since the partials are, in general, integer relationships.


Hi Prout,

You wrote: ..."I assume when you speak of moving away from the octave (defined as a 2:1 ratio of frequencies, not partials)in order to create a more euphonious tuning, you are referring to tuning the piano."...

Not really, what I wrote above is not referring to 'tuning the piano' only, but tuning in general. I now realize that I was lucky to be enabled to pursue intonation on a piano, but there I went for what sounds in tune, for what sounds right to my ears; yes, that was and is on a piano, but my ear (for what I can say) makes no difference, it could be a voice or an oboe.

..."..While I haven't done a thought experiment on tuning an organ with octaves that are not in a 2:1 frequency ratio, it seems superficially to not be a solution, since the partials are, in general, integer relationships."...

I am not sure I get your point, Prout, which are the partials, which is the integer relationship that should be favored?

Would you like to expand on that?
.


Organs lack inharmonicity, so all partials are harmonic. Organ stops ( named by a reference length as 8 foot or normal pitch, 4 foot or twice the frequency, 16 foot or half the frequency, as well as 5 1/3, 2 2/3, 1 3/5 and others which are precise harmonics) are all tuned precisely in harmonic relationships to the octave. Therefore the prime numbers used to tune the pipes for the same note of all ranks are 2,3,5. There is no other choice, otherwise a single note would be hopelessly out of tune with itself when multiple stops are used. The only tuning choice on an organ with a twelve note scale is - Which 12 note temperament?

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#2238840 - 02/28/14 02:58 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Prout,

Right now I can only address you here, you would think there is some iH:

http://isma2010.phys.unsw.edu.au/proceedings/papers/p57.pdf

I have to go in a few minutes, but will be back later.

Cheers, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2238897 - 02/28/14 07:17 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: alfredo capurso]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 280
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi Prout,

Right now I can only address you here, you would think there is some iH:

http://isma2010.phys.unsw.edu.au/proceedings/papers/p57.pdf

I have to go in a few minutes, but will be back later.

Cheers, a.c.

Alfredo, thank you for finding that paper. I see that inharmonicity is mentioned in the paper and characterized for organ pipes. But it is only the inharmonicity of passive resonances. The author was very careful to point that out. These passive resonances are the response of an non-winded pipe to a pulse event, like striking the end of the pipe and observing the ringing frequencies that are briefly present. They can indeed be inharmonic, like a piano. The author mentions these passive resonances because they play a role in amplifying certain harmonics during active oscillation - that is, when they are winded. Thus they affect voicing, which is the chief concern of the author. However nothing in that paper should be taken to mean that active inharmonic partials could ever be present in a continuously sounding pipe. The active oscillations of a winded pipe must always be periodic, with true harmonics.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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