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#2230893 - 02/13/14 10:48 AM Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to.
ShiverMeTimbres Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/14
Posts: 208
This is not blaming the Piano player, I hear it all the time. They take a nice and even song, then decide to drop a lot of flare that just ruins it for me.

Some what of an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tgCpyxJuO8 - The sound is great From 2:35 until 2:42, an then it just seems like they unnecessarily decide to throw in a bunch of unneeded notes (to my ear).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUfgHl68qMI - 1:56->206

I seem to like Music that maintains a steady speed, doesn't have a lot of flare. I tend to enjoy the notes that live in the bottom 2/3rds of a Piano.

Is this just me not liking it when someone is deviating from what I have established of the norm of the piece?

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#2230898 - 02/13/14 10:56 AM Re: Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to. [Re: ShiverMeTimbres]
ShiverMeTimbres Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/14
Posts: 208
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to be condescending. I am as basic as they come.

However, there is a pattern in Music to throw random groups of fast playing of notes, in a piece that spends most of its time not being that way. And it's like nails on a chalkboard to me.

For all I know, it's the original music and not the Piano player doing it, but I really want to know what it's called.


Edited by ShiverMeTimbres (02/13/14 11:00 AM)

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#2230925 - 02/13/14 11:58 AM Re: Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to. [Re: ShiverMeTimbres]
Sand Tiger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 1151
Loc: Southern California
Ornaments in music, runs in voice, are a preference. Some folks prefer a basic, bare bones, perhaps a pure approach. Many others, like the ornaments, the runs, the fills, and vote with their ears (and pocket books).

There are few rights or wrongs in music. Each person might like or dislike different things. Those on the edges, in the small groups, might have a lot of things that they don't like, that the masses do like.
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#2230940 - 02/13/14 12:30 PM Re: Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to. [Re: Sand Tiger]
ShiverMeTimbres Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/14
Posts: 208
That's EXACTLY, what I was wanting to know, thanks smile

Ornaments.

I'm sure there are times when ornaments may contribute to a better sounding piece. Generally to me, it is basically this.

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#2231003 - 02/13/14 02:27 PM Re: Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to. [Re: ShiverMeTimbres]
Pathbreaker Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1184
Loc: Massachusetts
In some music for piano the ornaments are necessary. They will make more sense if you can understand the structure of the piece well enough that you know which notes are fundamental and which are ornamental. I believe almost all instruments are intended to approximate the human voice. The ornaments provide the necessary breathing and liveliness that the piano is otherwise incapable of producing. The style of ornaments and whether or not they feel like natural breathing or sighing depends on the skill and artistry of the performer. Just my general opinion, of course.

This is not to say that plenty of performers or composers have more style than substance. That of course happens plenty often!

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#2231029 - 02/13/14 03:02 PM Re: Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to. [Re: ShiverMeTimbres]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8113
Loc: New York City
If one is going to disagree with doing ornaments, just how far does that go? One could argue that an entire piece is an ornament.
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Polyphonist

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#2231039 - 02/13/14 03:31 PM Re: Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to. [Re: ShiverMeTimbres]
hreichgott Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1541
Loc: western MA, USA
Having listened to those videos, I think what you dislike is random noodling for no musical reason. Can't say I blame you laugh

What do you think of these much more intelligently composed decorative passages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzUGKoMkq4I
(decorative passage starts at 3:54 and is built on everything that came before)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14Ym84u0EQQ
(decorative passage at 0:49 and similar)
_________________________
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Working on:
Beethoven Op. 2 no. 2
I love Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and new music

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#2231064 - 02/13/14 04:25 PM Re: Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to. [Re: hreichgott]
ShiverMeTimbres Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/14
Posts: 208
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Having listened to those videos, I think what you dislike is random noodling for no musical reason. Can't say I blame you laugh

What do you think of these much more intelligently composed decorative passages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzUGKoMkq4I
(decorative passage starts at 3:54 and is built on everything that came before)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14Ym84u0EQQ
(decorative passage at 0:49 and similar)


I listened to Pollini Beethoven Appassionata 2 without watching the screen. You're right, he's building upon it and it actually sounds like it is meant to be a stepping stone in the progression (if I am characterizing that right).

As for Daniil Trifonov - F. Chopin Impromptu in F-sharp major op. 36, 0:49->0:50 I didn't really find added value to the piece, 0:56 started off okay, but what he does with it in 0:57 was making me strain to keep interest.

But I do understand the difference now between Random Noodling and Ornament, but sometimes it seems to blur for me.

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#2231089 - 02/13/14 05:06 PM Re: Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to. [Re: ShiverMeTimbres]
Michael Martinez Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 516
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Having listened to those videos, I think what you dislike is random noodling for no musical reason. Can't say I blame you laugh



Yeah except none of the clips in the OP's vids are random noodling.

Here's an example of truly random noodling without much structure (2:25 - 2:55):

2:25 - 2:55


Edited by Michael Martinez (02/13/14 05:06 PM)
_________________________
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http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2231100 - 02/13/14 05:13 PM Re: Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to. [Re: Michael Martinez]
ShiverMeTimbres Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/14
Posts: 208
Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez
Here's an example of truly random noodling without much structure (2:25 - 2:55)


Wow. 2:34 was my, "Okay, this is enough" mark.


Edited by ShiverMeTimbres (02/13/14 05:14 PM)

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#2231115 - 02/13/14 05:36 PM Re: Help me understand what it is, I'm intolerant to. [Re: ShiverMeTimbres]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8113
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: ShiverMeTimbres
I listened to Pollini Beethoven Appassionata 2 without watching the screen. You're right, he's building upon it and it actually sounds like it is meant to be a stepping stone in the progression (if I am characterizing that right).

As for Daniil Trifonov - F. Chopin Impromptu in F-sharp major op. 36, 0:49->0:50 I didn't really find added value to the piece, 0:56 started off okay, but what he does with it in 0:57 was making me strain to keep interest.

Okay, now I see what the problem is.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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