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#2230948 - 02/13/14 12:37 PM Should I buy the floor model?
erynofwales Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 18
Loc: California, USA
I'm in the process of buying a new DP. Yesterday, I went to a Kawai dealer near my place and tried out a few pianos. The salesman showed me the Kawai CA95 and CA65. They weren't originally on my list since they were a bit out of my price range, but I fell in love...

The guy offered to give me a "good deal" on the floor model CA65 he had. Instead of $3500, he offered me $2700 with a rebate for the shipping costs. He said it had only been out for three weeks, and showed me the shipping invoice to prove it. From my cursory look-over, the piano seemed to be in good condition. No major bumps or scrapes that I could see, and it didn't seem overly worn or used.

So question for you all: is this a good deal? I don't really have a sense of what might be problematic with floor model pianos, digital or acoustic. I'm a little hesitant to buy floor models of anything just 'cause I like having new things. But don't we all... O:)

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#2230959 - 02/13/14 12:52 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3900
Loc: North Carolina
Floor models are common among the high-end digital pianos. A few things though ...

1. The "rebate for shipping costs" ... that's a puzzler. What is that?

2. Is it in perfect condition? Check it out thoroughly. And be sure to confirm the warranty. A piano that has not been sold is considered new, and warranted.

3. Is the price right? The $3500 new is just an offer, not a price. The $2700 floor model is just an offer, not a price.
In this case I think $2700 is not so good for a floor model.
Here's what others have paid for a new CA65, as seen in the Prices Paid thread:
Dec 2012 . . . $2600
Mar 2013 . . . $2800
Jan 2013 . . . $2865
Aug 2012 . . . $2995 (incl tax)
Nov 2013 . . . $3000 (incl tax)

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#2230964 - 02/13/14 01:12 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
Pete14 Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 288
Floor models can be a great deal; especially when purchased at dealers, for these places are usually empty; in other words floor models don't get played on a constant basis; as would be the case of a Guitar-Center-type-store; where floor models are constantly being played by all sorts of people. As far as the asking price goes, too high. He's basically charging you for a new piano. Keep in mind that MSRP's for these type of instruments are usually -intentionally- inflated so as to make it look like you're getting a substantial discount.

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#2230968 - 02/13/14 01:16 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
evamar Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 554
Loc: Spanish living in UK
Originally Posted By: erynofwales
I'm in the process of buying a new DP. Yesterday, I went to a Kawai dealer near my place and tried out a few pianos. The salesman showed me the Kawai CA95 and CA65. They weren't originally on my list since they were a bit out of my price range, but I fell in love...

The guy offered to give me a "good deal" on the floor model CA65 he had. Instead of $3500, he offered me $2700 with a rebate for the shipping costs. He said it had only been out for three weeks, and showed me the shipping invoice to prove it. From my cursory look-over, the piano seemed to be in good condition. No major bumps or scrapes that I could see, and it didn't seem overly worn or used.

So question for you all: is this a good deal? I don't really have a sense of what might be problematic with floor model pianos, digital or acoustic. I'm a little hesitant to buy floor models of anything just 'cause I like having new things. But don't we all... O:)


jajaa... I know exactly what you mean! I tried them and really wanted them! laugh

3 weeks is nothing, I would check every single key and feature, and of course check the actual serial number against the invoice.

Kawai's price in their website is around $3,500 (2,100), and even over $4,000 in some online dealers!. Seems a bit more expensive than here in the UK (1,900 with free extras, tax and delivery). For once something is cheaper here!!!!

In any case, as others have mentioned, the price tag is just an offer, you can always negotiate a bit! I did, and got a good deal.




Edited by evamar (02/13/14 01:23 PM)
_________________________
Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted



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#2230971 - 02/13/14 01:19 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 563
Loc: UK
You have to wonder why... why would he have a model on show for only 3 weeks and then want to sell it?

The shipping note is more likely to be for the brand new one he has in the storeroom, rather than the one on display, which was returned by a customer a year and a half ago and has been on display ever since.

Even if he swears that it's only been on the floor for 3 weeks, that doesn't mean it hasn't been on another shop floor somewhere else for some time before that. It doesn't make much sense to put a brand new item on the shop floor, to become B-stock, when they could put one that's already B-stock there.

At least you can give it a good inspection though (noting its serial number), if you know what you're looking for. However the kind of discount I'd expect for an ex-display (i.e. second hand) item is likely to be more than what the shop will give. Why sell to a clued-up person at a realistic price when they can find a dupe who'll overpay?
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2230972 - 02/13/14 01:21 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: MacMacMac]
erynofwales Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 18
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
1. The "rebate for shipping costs" ... that's a puzzler. What is that?

He said something about shipping costs to get it to my house. I would pay the cost of shipping, and he'd be able to get a rebate from Kawai for that. Thinking back on it, I'm not sure it's totally clear to me either...

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
2. Is it in perfect condition? Check it out thoroughly. And be sure to confirm the warranty. A piano that has not been sold is considered new, and warranted.

I didn't look really thoroughly, but it seemed to be in pretty good condition. I played it for about 10 minutes. Nothing felt broken or loose. The action of the keys and pedals seemed good. The cabinet felt solid. The buttons and ports all seemed to be in good shape. Are there any other things I should be looking for? He did say it was still covered by the factory warranty.

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
3. Is the price right? The $3500 new is just an offer, not a price. The $2700 floor model is just an offer, not a price.
In this case I think $2700 is not so good for a floor model.
Here's what others have paid for a new CA65, as seen in the Prices Paid thread:
Dec 2012 . . . $2600
Mar 2013 . . . $2800
Jan 2013 . . . $2865
Aug 2012 . . . $2995 (incl tax)
Nov 2013 . . . $3000 (incl tax)

Ah, this is good to keep in mind -- offers vs. prices. And good to have these numbers as a reference. Thanks for pulling these out of that thread. I should take a closer look over there.

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#2230978 - 02/13/14 01:26 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 271
Loc: Virginia, USA
Some music stores only have one or two in boxes and will sell the floor model when they run out. It depends on the store and how much keyboard business they normally get. The local Music City store here is always selling floor models to make room for other items.
_________________________
A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....

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#2230979 - 02/13/14 01:26 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: lolatu]
erynofwales Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 18
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: lolatu
You have to wonder why... why would he have a model on show for only 3 weeks and then want to sell it?

The shipping note is more likely to be for the brand new one he has in the storeroom, rather than the one on display, which was returned by a customer a year and a half ago and has been on display ever since.

Even if he swears that it's only been on the floor for 3 weeks, that doesn't mean it hasn't been on another shop floor somewhere else for some time before that. It doesn't make much sense to put a brand new item on the shop floor, to become B-stock, when they could put one that's already B-stock there.

At least you can give it a good inspection though (noting its serial number), if you know what you're looking for. However the kind of discount I'd expect for an ex-display (i.e. second hand) item is likely to be more than what the shop will give. Why sell to a clued-up person at a realistic price when they can find a dupe who'll overpay?


Good points. Didn't think about the fact that it could have been on *another* shop floor for who knows how long. He did show me the serial on the invoice and on the unit, and they did match. Is there a way to look up serials and find out their manufacture date and such?

When I saw the numbers MacMacMac put up for what people paid for new CA65s, it looks like I'd be overpaying by quite a bit.

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#2231035 - 02/13/14 03:17 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
ADWyatt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 93
I had the same problem as described by the OP when I was considering upgrading from my CN34 to the CA65. I eventually decided to keep my CN34 until I received a much bigger tax refund than I had been expecting, thanks to various write-offs. And so I am again looking seriously to upgrading for the CA65.

The problem is that I think the dealer I'm working with is not giving me the best offer I could get. (I live in an American Midwest state.) After I would trade in my one-year-old CN34 to him, he wants to sell me a floor-demo CA65 for $2,300 difference, which would include tax and shipping. I've told him that I only want a brand-new model, unopened and shipped straight to me by his store, which would then pick up my CN34. He said that he wouldn't agree to that, and so we're at a sticking point which will probably never be resolved.

If I could sell my CN34 for $1,500, which I believe is a reasonable price, I could just order the CA65 straight from Kawai. It would cost me pretty much the same as my dealer is charging, with the advantage that it would be brand new.

Still, I think I could swing a better deal with an authorized Kawai dealer somewhere in the U.S. of A., so if anyone here can make suggestions in that direction, I would be deeply grateful.

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#2231058 - 02/13/14 04:18 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1955
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: erynofwales
When I saw the numbers MacMacMac put up for what people paid for new CA65s, it looks like I'd be overpaying by quite a bit.


Well, remember one thing ...

The answers you get here about making a deal are likely to represent the best possible price you could possibly imagine because this is, largely, an academic exercise for the posters. They do not have any "skin in the game".

You are the one who will gain or suffer with your decision.

So, if you want a CA-65 you may have to decide if it is worth paying an extra $200 dollars over the "best deal possible" in order to be sitting at your new piano playing music instead of being a hardnosed wheeler dealer wishing you could be playing on your new piano.

That being said ... try to work for a better deal but the only way to really have any leverage is to be willing to walk away with no piano. Are you willing to do that ?

Good Luck
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2231081 - 02/13/14 04:55 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: dmd]
erynofwales Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 18
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: dmd
Originally Posted By: erynofwales
When I saw the numbers MacMacMac put up for what people paid for new CA65s, it looks like I'd be overpaying by quite a bit.


Well, remember one thing ...

The answers you get here about making a deal are likely to represent the best possible price you could possibly imagine because this is, largely, an academic exercise for the posters. They do not have any "skin in the game".

You are the one who will gain or suffer with your decision.

So, if you want a CA-65 you may have to decide if it is worth paying an extra $200 dollars over the "best deal possible" in order to be sitting at your new piano playing music instead of being a hardnosed wheeler dealer wishing you could be playing on your new piano.

That being said ... try to work for a better deal but the only way to really have any leverage is to be willing to walk away with no piano. Are you willing to do that ?


Good point. I'm thinking I'll go back and ask if the dealer would be willing to sell me a new piano at that price, noting that I've spoken with a few people who have paid about that much. I already told him I had a cap of $2500, which... isn't a hard cap, but I'd like to keep it close to that.

In all honestly, I'm pretty terrible at bargaining, and I'd much rather have a piano than not.

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#2231139 - 02/13/14 06:24 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1955
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: erynofwales
Good point. I'm thinking I'll go back and ask if the dealer would be willing to sell me a new piano at that price


Well, you can be pretty sure he will not do that.

Quote:
I already told him I had a cap of $2500, which... isn't a hard cap, but I'd like to keep it close to that.


What I would do is tell him that if he will let it go for the $2500 you will take the floor model. That is the one he wants to sell.

I would not worry about it being damaged. In fact, since it is on the floor, it probably has been played enough to insure there is not anything wrong with it.

I would make that offer and tell him to call you if he can swing it and then go home and forget about it for a week or two. If you don't hear anything then if you want to ... go back and give him the $2700.

Might he sell it in the meantime ? It could happen. Not likely but possible.

If you are not willing to take a chance on losing it, then give him the $2700 and forget about that $200 savings.

Good Luck
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2231169 - 02/13/14 07:51 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3900
Loc: North Carolina
There's no chance of "losing" it because:
1. There nothing to be lost. This is a purchase, not a competition.
2. There's no need to leave without an answer. The dealer will either agree or not, right on the spot.
As for $2700 ... I wouldn't. Not for a floor model.

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#2231214 - 02/13/14 10:09 PM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: dmd]
peeve0717 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/12/13
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By: dmd

What I would do is tell him that if he will let it go for the $2500 you will take the floor model. That is the one he wants to sell.

I would not worry about it being damaged. In fact, since it is on the floor, it probably has been played enough to insure there is not anything wrong with it.


These are both good points.

I bought my CA65 last month for $2600 (before tax), new. Someone else had just bought the floor model I had tried on previous visits, and I know for a fact that he paid more than I did.
Every dealer is different, but he's currently trying to gauge your willingness to pay, as much you're trying to gauge his willingness to drop the price, and he's better off meeting your price than losing a customer.

I think it helped that I returned to the same shop several times to try out the instrument (i was torn between CA65 and CN24/34) before deciding to go so far outside my budget. On my first trip, he was offering much higher quotes and using the inflated retail price as a point of comparison. If you feel comfortable asking to be left to play for a while and decide whether you are willing to spring for the nicer instrument, it might increase the dealer's interest in trying to help you out. It may not take much to move from the category of "mere customer" to "person".

Regarding dmd's second point: If this shop is anything like the Kawai dealer I visited (low traffic, serious buyers only), a lightly used floor model is arguably as valuable as a new item. It has the same warranty, it has probably only seen the kind of use it is built to handle for many years (as opposed to the beating Guitar Center instruments take), and it doesn't have any of the manufacturing problems that some instruments have right out of the box.


Edited by peeve0717 (02/13/14 10:11 PM)

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#2231292 - 02/14/14 02:54 AM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: peeve0717]
evamar Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 554
Loc: Spanish living in UK
It's a very good piano and for what the OT says he cannot afford it new, we all have our budgets. I'm only considering that it was really used for 3 weeks, as you could check the serial number against the invoice, the good condition of the piano, and that it will have normal Kawai warranty as it wasn't sold to a consumer, but check this point too.

But then peeve said that he got a new one for $2,600 plus tax just a month ago! That would make it closer to the UK price for this model new. However that's an extremely good deal and it would surprise me that can be repeated with the other dealer.

I think he made a good point though, go back to the shop and try both the floor model and the CN34, saying that you are not sure about an used model or a new one. Spend some time playing both.

Really every dealer has his minimum price in his mind, and it's different from one to the other. The new price tag definitely allows for some negotiation, but not so much the used models, it's normally up to 500 less, which the asking price already reflects.

I would offer him something like $2,250, and see where that goes. You already told him that your limit is $2,500, so he can see that you are making an effort. I think that $2,500 including taxes and delivery would be a good deal for you on that used model.

Try that, if it doesn't work straight away then prepare yourself to a bit of a haggle, increments depending on what the total price with tax and delivery actually is.

And remember, the worst thing is that he'll say no, but even then you would still get a very good piano at a price you can afford, so don't worry if you end up paying his price, it's still cheaper than what you would get from him new.

Haggling negotiation skills:










Edited by evamar (02/14/14 03:08 AM)
_________________________
Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted



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#2231341 - 02/14/14 07:03 AM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1863
Loc: Portugal
That's a lovely sketch.

I had a similar experience in a brothel one time in Hamburg. These are not places, the customs of which, I'm overly familiar. I was being shown the sights of the city by our host. The Reeperbahn district is high on the list in the general tourist circuit.

We went in this place and immediately you're surrounded by a throng of attractive girls. Isn't this what life is all about? (I hear you ask). Well, yes and no. But not in these circumstances, I can tell you.

So I decided to keep my head down as if I were in a force 9 gale. The girls must have got rather irritated by this anti-social behaviour and they went to inform the boss. She duly appears making all this fuss, 'Who won't talk to my girls?' she demanded. I'm in the middle of the tumult, rather tied for words (in English, let along German).

In the end, our host who was a record producer smoothed things over with the excuse that 1. I was a musician 2. I was from the North of England...and who knows what other stories. These are important strings to your bow in these kinds of situations, I've found. Consequently, if you're a bus driver from Belgium, say, you have to try a whole lot harder. It's like having a get out of jail free card, being a musician or a Brit.

Anyway, what ever the record producer said was a satisfactory explanation, and we moved on, unharmed but a little shaken.

Moral: It's better to bargain because you can always just walk away if you don't like the way things are going.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2231366 - 02/14/14 08:29 AM Re: Should I buy the floor model? [Re: erynofwales]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12216
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: erynofwales


Good point. I'm thinking I'll go back and ask if the dealer would be willing to sell me a new piano at that price, noting that I've spoken with a few people who have paid about that much. I already told him I had a cap of $2500, which... isn't a hard cap, but I'd like to keep it close to that.

In all honestly, I'm pretty terrible at bargaining, and I'd much rather have a piano than not.


And the sales guy would much rather sell than not, but he does have a minimum he can do. Still, there is no harm in offering less. If he says no, he can't go any lower, then you can continue your search for that piano elsewhere for the price you want to pay (which does not seem unreasonable). Getting a piano takes some time, so be patient.
_________________________
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