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#2231131 - 02/13/14 06:04 PM Electronic piano tuning
Lchauvin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/09/14
Posts: 10
Are electronic pianos/organs tuned to ET..or what?

Lance

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#2231147 - 02/13/14 06:44 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
carol j Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 4
Loc: stanton, california
Electric pianos should already be set at A=440. Considering the organ is also a C instrument, I would imagine the same goes for them as well.

Honestly dont know what you mean by ET
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#2231152 - 02/13/14 07:13 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

I know that the new Rogers electric organs have a built in control that varies the temp automatically each time the instrument is played. This is the give the sound a more pipe organ effect.

Electronic instruments of one sort or another would be tuned to A440 which is the international ISO 16. That is all that is important.
This is mainstream, appeals to the majority of the purchasing public, and would result in the widest market share capture.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2231176 - 02/13/14 08:15 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
Tim Sullivan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 70
Loc: Muskoka, Ontario
A lot of electronic pianos allow you to chose different temperaments. Some even allow you to make your own. The only problem is that the unisons often sound a little off and unevenly so, like a sloppy tuning.
Tim
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I'm a piano tech and dealer in Central Ontario.
www.huntsvillepiano.ca

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#2231221 - 02/13/14 10:37 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Tim Sullivan]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1473
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Unisons out on a digital piano! So much for "never needs tuning". It should be "always needs tuning and can't be!". Or you could say they "can't hold a tune".
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2231226 - 02/13/14 11:05 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6138
Loc: Rochester MN
Lchauvin,

You might get more complete answers in the Digital Forum. Available features, such as selectable temperament, are discussed in depth in that forum.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2231328 - 02/14/14 05:39 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2331
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I've sampled several different brands of digital pianos with my ETD and can verify that the default temperament is indeed ET....in fact, the fundamental is more close to clinical perfect ET than most acoustic pianos end up after tuning. Of the Yamaha and Kawai DP's I've checked, they were all adjustable on the pitch and were within 1 cent on A440 default.

The spectrum of partials (overtones)on DP's is quite incomplete on the ones I have sampled. There are partials on the ladder which are missing and the natural inharmonicity found on higher partials is not programmed as severe, or at all in some cases, compared to accoustic pianos. One can play some very wide intervals which would bring out some beating coincident partials on an accoustic, and on the DP's that beating is often not there. On the more prevelant intervals like M3rds, Fifths etc..the beat rates can be very precise with small anomolies which tuners compensate for being non existant.

Because these modern DP's have no actual strings, there is no "unison" per se. I did not detect any wavers or beats on single notes on the ones I checked so I cannot comment if all DP's are like this, but I assume they are since I think it would be costly, impractical and unneccesary to design and impliment a sound which would otherwise be cleaned up or removed on an accoustic piano by a tuner.

The sound which culminates from all this is very clean and selective tone structure of partials is often percieved by knowledgeable listeners as unnatural, too perfect and somewhat thin. Changes is the spectrum due to amplitude variation (when the DP reacts to touch sensitivity) is also very predictable, very linear and offers less dynamics than most accoustic pianos. High end DP's seem to have this covered better an will have more sampled "steps" to give increased dynamics effects.

There is a programmed "stretch" on these DP's out at the extents of the keyboard but they do not correspond or tie in well with coincident partials from lower/higher octaves....they are very linear and sort of nestle into a spot that creates a bit of equally spaced tension. This conservative approach will leave a bass that often lacks any depth or any realistic complex structure on its spectrum. Very wide intervals with higher notes often will not produce comparative tone structure to an accoustic piano...its like the sounds are there but they refuse to work with each other harmonically.


Edited by Emmery (02/14/14 06:03 AM)
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#2231371 - 02/14/14 08:33 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Emmery]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3006
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
This conservative approach will leave a bass that often lacks any depth or any realistic complex structure on its spectrum.


This is the first time I've seen anyone listen with trained ears to a DP. Very interesting.

My gripe with DPs is they attempt to emulate the acoustic even when it's not useful. In the very low range where the average acoustic gets growly, the DP does too. There is no reason an inexpensive DP couldn't play much lower than all but the finest large grands (and higher without getting tinkly.)
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#2231412 - 02/14/14 09:54 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: TimR]
jmw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/10
Posts: 77
Loc: Girard, KS,
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: Emmery
This conservative approach will leave a bass that often lacks any depth or any realistic complex structure on its spectrum.


This is the first time I've seen anyone listen with trained ears to a DP. Very interesting.

My gripe with DPs is they attempt to emulate the acoustic even when it's not useful. In the very low range where the average acoustic gets growly, the DP does too. There is no reason an inexpensive DP couldn't play much lower than all but the finest large grands (and higher without getting tinkly.)


I use a Roland K series digital grand at my church. I think the limitations to which Tim refers are due to the quality, or lack thereof, of the amplification system.

Our Roland has several tuning options, but the default tuning is Equal. Within that I can choose to have a stretched ET as well. It also offers Kimberger, Werkmeister, Just, 1/4 comma meantone, and others. I'd have to investigate further to be sure, but I don't think I can change any offsets within the various temperaments.

As an aside, this one is unique to me, as it actually has a solid spruce soundboard surrounding the speakers; i.e. you open the lid and see the soundboard instead of strings.

Happy Weekend,
jw
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Music teacher and beginning Tuner

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#2231436 - 02/14/14 10:48 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: TimR]
pyropaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 133
Loc: Montreal
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: Emmery
This conservative approach will leave a bass that often lacks any depth or any realistic complex structure on its spectrum.


This is the first time I've seen anyone listen with trained ears to a DP. Very interesting.

My gripe with DPs is they attempt to emulate the acoustic even when it's not useful. In the very low range where the average acoustic gets growly, the DP does too. There is no reason an inexpensive DP couldn't play much lower than all but the finest large grands (and higher without getting tinkly.)


Most decent digital pianos are sampled from real grand pianos and so exhibit the same inharmonicity and timbre as the piano they were sampled from. Problem is, if you don't like the tone of the original piano they used, you're stuck with it. This is why many people use external sample libraries - then you're free to use whatever you want and are only limited by how much memory your system has. The really good sample libraries sample each not at many different velocities so they don't suffer from the odd shift in timbre that plagues those instruments that use the same samples for several notes. Of course the quality of the tuning is only as good as the instrument they sampled from so it's perfectly possible that the unisons aren't perfect. With pianos that use physical modelling, then unison tuning is usually controllable (and often stretch as well) plus some allow arbitrary tuning of each note.

I have an old Yamaha P120 and it's definitely possible to hear the beats on all the intervals as well as some less than perfect unisons in the upper registers (though part of this is the looping if the sample playback). It is definitely stretched as the ET tuning on the piano preset is sharper in the treble than the organ preset, for example.

Paul.

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#2231462 - 02/14/14 11:55 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: jmw

Our Roland has several tuning options, but the default tuning is Equal. Within that I can choose to have a stretched ET as well. It also offers Kimberger, Werkmeister, Just, 1/4 comma meantone, and others. I'd have to investigate further to be sure, but I don't think I can change any offsets within the various temperaments.


Sorry but those are not tuning options; those are temperament options, of which any could be chosen without complaint from any member of the congregation, as nobody would notice the difference.

The mistake is between tuning to A440 and setting a mathematical temperament in the pitch of A440.

One is completely different than the other.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2231473 - 02/14/14 12:03 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
jmw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/10
Posts: 77
Loc: Girard, KS,
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted By: jmw

Our Roland has several tuning options, but the default tuning is Equal. Within that I can choose to have a stretched ET as well. It also offers Kimberger, Werkmeister, Just, 1/4 comma meantone, and others. I'd have to investigate further to be sure, but I don't think I can change any offsets within the various temperaments.


Sorry but those are not tuning options; those are temperament options, of which any could be chosen without complaint from any member of the congregation, as nobody would notice the difference.


Quite right, of course. Pardon me! I just meant to point out that some digitals can be set to a different temperament than ET.
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#2231475 - 02/14/14 12:05 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6138
Loc: Rochester MN
Why wouldn't a choice of temperament be considered a "tuning option?" After all, any temperament is the choice of interval spacing to create the intonation (tuning) of the piano.

The OP didn't ask about the pitch of A, but of the temperament used on non-acoustic keyboard instruments (thingies).
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2231477 - 02/14/14 12:11 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: jmw

Quite right, of course. Pardon me! I just meant to point out that some digitals can be set to a different temperament than ET.


No problem. This is often a mistake made. Most music we hear today, radio, TV, CDís, records, whatever is all at the international standard frequency of A440.

This is the mainstream frequency used by the majority and was agreed to in ISO 1936 and then later in 1955 with ISO 16.

Once the instrument is at that pitch frequency then a decision is made of which mathematical equation is chosen to best represent the music played.

Again most use the mainstream commonality of Equal Temperament.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2231544 - 02/14/14 01:47 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 796
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I often check the tuning of digital pianos, using standard tuning checks. No matter how expensive the digital piano, they always fail miserably; uneven thirds, inconsistent octaves that have some narrow 2:1's even, always some narrow fourths and wide fifths.

I don't know, but I have a theory that, if a digital piano had a more even tuning, the sound would be lifeless because there is no cross resonance between strings, soundboard, etc.

It's just a theory, but why else would an instrument that has been designed by high priced electro acoustic engineers have such horrible tuning quality?
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Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2231631 - 02/14/14 05:22 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
pyropaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 133
Loc: Montreal
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I often check the tuning of digital pianos, using standard tuning checks. No matter how expensive the digital piano, they always fail miserably; uneven thirds, inconsistent octaves that have some narrow 2:1's even, always some narrow fourths and wide fifths.

I don't know, but I have a theory that, if a digital piano had a more even tuning, the sound would be lifeless because there is no cross resonance between strings, soundboard, etc.

It's just a theory, but why else would an instrument that has been designed by high priced electro acoustic engineers have such horrible tuning quality?


That's not my experience at all. The thirds are progressive and the 4ths / 5ths are pretty good. Not so much the 10ths from the low to high tenor though (not enough stretch I reckon). Decent digitals sample all the cross-resonance anyway as they have samples both pedal-up and pedal-down (and some have half pedal samples too). Things have come a long way in the past few years.

Paul.

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#2231636 - 02/14/14 05:30 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
R_B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 425
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I often check the tuning of digital pianos, using standard tuning checks. No matter how expensive the digital piano, they always fail miserably; uneven thirds, inconsistent octaves that have some narrow 2:1's even, always some narrow fourths and wide fifths.

I don't know, but I have a theory that, if a digital piano had a more even tuning, the sound would be lifeless because there is no cross resonance between strings, soundboard, etc.

It's just a theory, but why else would an instrument that has been designed by high priced electro acoustic engineers have such horrible tuning quality?


Interesting...
I am not qualified to argue, or support what you said.
I would be interested to know if you ever check the tuning of virtual pianos, i.e. "sample players" and modeled piano programs such as Pianoteq.

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#2231831 - 02/15/14 01:38 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
erichlof Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 358
Hi all, I can vouch for tuning accuracy in Pianoteq. Since it is synthesized mathematically, they can plug in any curve, stretch, octave size, temperament, you name it. Their stock ET that comes pre-loaded is right on the money (using aural tuner's interval checks).

I can't say the same for sampled piano software such as Synthogy's American Concert D and Galaxy's Vintage D, because I do not own them or have access to them.

I'm with Mark on finding sub-standard (sometimes bad) tuning on stock DP's. The best to my knowledge is Yamaha's flagship line. The thirds are pretty darn even (taking into account that they 'stretch samples' over a couple of chromatic neighboring keys on some models). I think somewhere Yamaha said that they hired a piano technician to oversee the sampling of the original Yamaha CFIII, and to be ready to touch it up if things go astray during the pounding of all individual 88 notes, times however many velocity layers (ppp to fff) that they advertise per note. That's a lot of recording!

Coming in behind Yamaha is Roland, Casio, and the rest. Mixed results from those, especially Roland (who supposedly samples different Steinways for each register of your DP!). That's an exercise in futility trying to get that DP in tune with itself!

I would bet that the software sampled pianos that I mentioned above fall into the same category as Roland, Casio, etc., unless they hired a technician to be on site during the sampling like Yamaha did.

The best of both worlds, and possibly the future is hybrid modelling/sampling so they can dial in a note accurately like Pianoteq's synth engine can, AND at the same time have a realistic piano tone when you press a key.

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#2231998 - 02/15/14 11:20 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I have a small desktop keyboard which I bought 30 years ago for $10 in a thrift store. The beat rates starting at C3 are as follows:

Beat frequencies of 3/2 5/4 5/3
C 0: 0.000: -1.1329 4.1829 5.6883
1: 102.350: -0.7580 3.7925 4.5526
D 2: 203.450: -1.5410 4.5334 6.0549
3: 298.850: -0.7470 5.3099 7.5757
E 4: 397.350: 0.7691 8.3529 9.8690
F 5: 498.100: -0.0166 7.5567 10.6388
6: 600.400: -0.0016 6.0674 7.5613
G 7: 696.950: 1.5430 10.6448 9.1065
8: 801.150: -1.5302 7.5506 7.5839
A 9: 899.350: -1.5055 10.6495 10.6527
10: 998.030: -0.7601 12.9182 9.8323
B11: 1102.000: -1.5214 7.5461 10.6065

Note the pure P5 on F and F# and the wide GD P5.

I kind of like the sound of this bizarre temperament, though this requires a very positive attitude.

Even more bizarre temperaments can be found on things like the "singing candles" or birthday cards, you'll hear they are quite out of tune.

The reason is that all tones are made by circuits that modify a single base tone generator (such as a square wave) and these circuits produce rational intervals with simple ratios like 3/2 using less circuits than complicated ones like 9/8 so they find the cheapest way to get an approximate ET. The cheaper the device, the rougher the tuning.

On half-decent sampling keyboards this is no longer an issue nowadays.

Kees

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#2232220 - 02/15/14 06:40 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: pyropaul]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 796
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I often check the tuning of digital pianos, using standard tuning checks. No matter how expensive the digital piano, they always fail miserably; uneven thirds, inconsistent octaves that have some narrow 2:1's even, always some narrow fourths and wide fifths.

I don't know, but I have a theory that, if a digital piano had a more even tuning, the sound would be lifeless because there is no cross resonance between strings, soundboard, etc.

It's just a theory, but why else would an instrument that has been designed by high priced electro acoustic engineers have such horrible tuning quality?


That's not my experience at all. The thirds are progressive and the 4ths / 5ths are pretty good. Not so much the 10ths from the low to high tenor though (not enough stretch I reckon). Decent digitals sample all the cross-resonance anyway as they have samples both pedal-up and pedal-down (and some have half pedal samples too). Things have come a long way in the past few years.

Paul.


True. I've even been fooled at a dealer once.

But the cross resonance is not there. It can't be, because that is an analog thing.

What I'm more interested in is, why do I hear such poor tunings on DP's. Is it that I am too picky or just unlucky.

I think I will take the opportunity to record some DPs I find and post the results. It would be a good excercise to get some confirmation on what I am hearing.

(OK, I read some other posts after mine. So I'm not crazy. I would like to check some modeling software for fun.)


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (02/15/14 06:44 PM)
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www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2232227 - 02/15/14 06:50 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 796
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
As an aside, Chris Leslie and I are working on a tuning game. You can enter your sequence, or play someone else's. The game cycles through the checks and you can tweak each note as you go. Then you get a score.

One problem we have is the tone generation. Currently using 8 partials modelling different iH. (B values)

I would eventually like to use the tuning produced by a user, to play some midi files so people can compare the sound of one tuning to another, or ET to an HT, for example.

Does anyone know if that is possible? To use a access a sample within a game and tweak it's tuning? We are using Java.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2232243 - 02/15/14 07:37 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
As an aside, Chris Leslie and I are working on a tuning game. You can enter your sequence, or play someone else's. The game cycles through the checks and you can tweak each note as you go. Then you get a score.

One problem we have is the tone generation. Currently using 8 partials modelling different iH. (B values)

I would eventually like to use the tuning produced by a user, to play some midi files so people can compare the sound of one tuning to another, or ET to an HT, for example.

Does anyone know if that is possible? To use a access a sample within a game and tweak it's tuning? We are using Java.


Yes with the Java audio API you can stream MIDI into a sink, add pitchbends as desired, and render the modified MIDI. I wrote such a module to modify MIDI in realtime from a keyboard and change the tuning. But it was over a decade ago and I don't remember the details.

Kees

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#2232245 - 02/15/14 07:43 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: erichlof]
R_B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 425
Originally Posted By: erichlof
Hi all, I can vouch for tuning accuracy in Pianoteq. Since it is synthesized mathematically, they can plug in any curve, stretch, octave size, temperament, you name it. Their stock ET that comes pre-loaded is right on the money (using aural tuner's interval checks).

I can't say the same for sampled piano software such as Synthogy's American Concert D and Galaxy's Vintage D, because I do not own them or have access to them.

I'm with Mark on finding sub-standard (sometimes bad) tuning on stock DP's. The best to my knowledge is Yamaha's flagship line. The thirds are pretty darn even (taking into account that they 'stretch samples' over a couple of chromatic neighboring keys on some models). I think somewhere Yamaha said that they hired a piano technician to oversee the sampling of the original Yamaha CFIII, and to be ready to touch it up if things go astray during the pounding of all individual 88 notes, times however many velocity layers (ppp to fff) that they advertise per note. That's a lot of recording!

Coming in behind Yamaha is Roland, Casio, and the rest. Mixed results from those, especially Roland (who supposedly samples different Steinways for each register of your DP!). That's an exercise in futility trying to get that DP in tune with itself!

I would bet that the software sampled pianos that I mentioned above fall into the same category as Roland, Casio, etc., unless they hired a technician to be on site during the sampling like Yamaha did.

The best of both worlds, and possibly the future is hybrid modelling/sampling so they can dial in a note accurately like Pianoteq's synth engine can, AND at the same time have a realistic piano tone when you press a key.


I guess that begs the question as to how UNrealistic Pianoteq's tone is - or how it might improve with further development, faster processors, etc.

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#2232375 - 02/16/14 01:37 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
erichlof Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 358
Yeah, unfortunately Pianoteq's reproduction of piano tone is not quite there yet. However, their sounds between the notes (sympathetic resonance, damper resonance, soundboard resonance, etc.) are awesome. This is where sampling falls short, because no one has sampled every possible combination of notes, velocity, and pedal position from 88 possible key presses - which is practically infinite. This must be handled with a mathematical model IMO.

But the reproduction of a single piano note is where sampling shines. This is where the infinite possibilities of steel/copper wire vibrating over a wooden soundboard work against Pianoteq - no one has yet modeled mathematically ALL the possible imperfections and interactions of atoms within an acoustic piano system. It's much easier to playback a recording than to try to build the piano's complex tone with sine waves on a computer.

Hence the need IMO for a true hybrid - Pianoteq's math for resonance, and sample library's recordings for accurate tone reproduction. Who knows when these two will truly meet? smile

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#2232457 - 02/16/14 07:48 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: erichlof]
R_B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 425
Originally Posted By: erichlof
Yeah, unfortunately Pianoteq's reproduction of piano tone is not quite there yet. However, their sounds between the notes (sympathetic resonance, damper resonance, soundboard resonance, etc.) are awesome. This is where sampling falls short, because no one has sampled every possible combination of notes, velocity, and pedal position from 88 possible key presses - which is practically infinite. This must be handled with a mathematical model IMO.

But the reproduction of a single piano note is where sampling shines. This is where the infinite possibilities of steel/copper wire vibrating over a wooden soundboard work against Pianoteq - no one has yet modeled mathematically ALL the possible imperfections and interactions of atoms within an acoustic piano system. It's much easier to playback a recording than to try to build the piano's complex tone with sine waves on a computer.

Hence the need IMO for a true hybrid - Pianoteq's math for resonance, and sample library's recordings for accurate tone reproduction. Who knows when these two will truly meet? smile


I agree that it is EASIER to sample than to model, I don't agree that it is necessary to model interaction at the atomic or even molecular level.
Maybe not even each cm of each string, or each sq cm of the soundboard, but more processing power MIGHT take things closer to that.

Heck, the best builders can't build the next one the same as the last one laugh there is just SO MUCH variability in materials alone, to say nothing of the variability of the processes, some of which are skills based.

It seems a little ODD to want to get closer to any ONE piano than the previous or next piano of the same make/model gets to that ONE piano.
Personally I think the "realism" (for want of a better word) is plenty good enough at the waveform level, it is beyond there that the chain fails - amps, speakers (& their placement), resonant feel back through the keys, etc.
(IMO, etc.)

========================
I wonder if it might be possible to sample and in some way "morph" the samples back into tune, probably by post processing the sample. ???
Something that SEEMS sample recorders should be doing is looking at each sample as it is made and calling for a correction right then and there, maybe tweak a unison here or there ?


Edited by R_B (02/16/14 09:10 AM)

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#2232598 - 02/16/14 01:48 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: R_B]
pyropaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 133
Loc: Montreal
Originally Posted By: R_B

I wonder if it might be possible to sample and in some way "morph" the samples back into tune, probably by post processing the sample. ???
Something that SEEMS sample recorders should be doing is looking at each sample as it is made and calling for a correction right then and there, maybe tweak a unison here or there ?


All sample players were doing this anyway as memory was too expensive to have a sample-per-note (or multiple samples per note). Typically one sample would be used for several notes and then the playback of the sample would be adjusted to give the correct pitch for the note in question. The problem with this is that the timbre sounds wrong the further away in pitch one gets from the actual sampled frequency. Now that memory is so cheap, this isn't an issue as multiple samples per note are used. The pitch is still futzed with, though, as most decent EPs allow for different temperements to be selected.

Of course, modelled instruments like Pianoteq take a different approach and calculate everything according to the settings of the model parameters (which include things like unison "width" and amount of stretch etc.). Though as has been pointed out recently, piano sound is complex enough that it's not currently feasible to produce a model which accounts for everything. The hybrid sampled/modelled approach does sound interesting for the parts of the sound where it's hard to write a suitable model.

Paul.

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#2232759 - 02/16/14 06:57 PM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
R_B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 425
I am out of my depth here, but I question the idea that the actual movement of the strings and wood have to be modeled.

"Black box" representation, this input causes that(/those) output(s).

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#2233035 - 02/17/14 09:38 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: R_B]
prout Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 443
Originally Posted By: R_B
I am out of my depth here, but I question the idea that the actual movement of the strings and wood have to be modeled.

"Black box" representation, this input causes that(/those) output(s).



A paper ( free download), published in April, 2013 titled "Modeling and simulation of a grand piano" by Chabassier and Joly, found it necessary, in order to create a virtual piano, to model every interaction that occurs when a key is struck. To model one second of sound up to 10kHz, using a 300 cpus cluster, took 24 hours.


Edited by prout (02/17/14 09:41 AM)

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#2233066 - 02/17/14 10:35 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: Lchauvin]
erichlof Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 358
Hi prout and RB,
Thanks prout for the reference to that virtual piano modeling paper. I will definitely check that out (I've always been interested in what it would take to completely model the tone of the piano, with all its parts, idiosyncrasies, etc.).

RB, to truly model the complete piano system mathematically, it seems that researchers have to go down to a very fine resolution (possibly molecular), which, as prout pointed out, is not in our current tech's grasp as of 2013-2014. Not to do it in real time anyway.

But computers are getting exponentially more powerful every 2 years so who knows when we will be able to simulate physical systems in real time? There are a lot of other use cases for accurate physical simulation besides piano and sound reproduction of course. Think 'the Matrix' smile

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#2233072 - 02/17/14 10:44 AM Re: Electronic piano tuning [Re: erichlof]
prout Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 443
Originally Posted By: erichlof
Hi prout and RB,
Thanks prout for the reference to that virtual piano modeling paper. I will definitely check that out (I've always been interested in what it would take to completely model the tone of the piano, with all its parts, idiosyncrasies, etc.).

RB, to truly model the complete piano system mathematically, it seems that researchers have to go down to a very fine resolution (possibly molecular), which, as prout pointed out, is not in our current tech's grasp as of 2013-2014. Not to do it in real time anyway.

But computers are getting exponentially more powerful every 2 years so who knows when we will be able to simulate physical systems in real time? There are a lot of other use cases for accurate physical simulation besides piano and sound reproduction of course. Think 'the Matrix' smile


No problem, erichlof.

Quotes from the conclusions chapter. "Analysis of the simulated piano tones in time and frequency show a satisfactory agreement with the measurements performed on a Steinway D grand piano. ...but that the depth of the bass notes is not completely rendered. ...In its present state, this model of piano should be considered as a crude skeleton of the instrument."

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