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#2229154 - 02/10/14 06:23 PM An interesting approach on pianists practice
mabraman Offline
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Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
I've just found this pdf from a South Africa graduated.
Hope you like it! (Guess no copyright in it)
http://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/32394/Wallick_Piano_2013.pdf?sequence=1

Edit: it does have copyright, but for educational-non commercial purposes it should be free.


Edited by mabraman (02/11/14 04:37 AM)
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#2229285 - 02/10/14 10:51 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
ajames Offline

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Registered: 08/25/13
Posts: 107
Loc: Texas
Thanks for the link! Although I'm pretty far from a concert pianist, looks like some interesting stuff in there...
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#2229349 - 02/11/14 01:18 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Thanks for sharing.

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#2229395 - 02/11/14 04:33 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
mabraman Offline
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Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
You're welcome.
If anybody is interested, I could provide a good lot of links related to this subject and some good scientific pdf's supporting "deliberate practice" approach.
Some months ago I discovered Berhnard's posts in pianostreet and, since then, I've been working on a document in which I translate the best of them into spanish. One thing led to another, and now I have a nice compilation from various authors, most of it in english.
The good new is that Berhnard is not a fool at all, but a very well informed teacher, and psychological researches support 90% of what he, and others in the same line,say.
Maybe some of the papers would be better sent via PM, just let me know.
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#2229414 - 02/11/14 07:14 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 735
Loc: Leicester, UK
Those links you mentioned would be great to have in one place. I'd like that posting if you'd put it up .. I"m guessing this link is in the collection ..

http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracticePR93.pdf

Thanks in advance for all good info ..

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#2229474 - 02/11/14 09:46 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
mabraman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
Nice Mark! That from Ericsson is always referred by other authors, so it's great to have it too.
Ok, some links:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2amIeYfwGQsRXFWRHRVaHNud2c/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kOrhoIL5Q5z-TV9qwj2Wl84kIrVUSozA0k64MLYZAzk/edit?usp=sharing
http://www.musicalfossils.com
https://www.youtube.com (search Seymour Fink)
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2013529/Piano_practice_with_spaced_rep.html (ankiweb)
http://www.www.dickhensold.com/playfaster.html (lecture)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKVLXDS4De0 (about practicing fast scales from a deliberate approach)
http://anthonymaydwell.com/Faith%20Maydwell/images/PianoTeaching.pdf (PianoTeaching.pdf, 96 pages by Faith Maydwell, great)
http://anthonymaydwell.com/Faith%20Maydwell/images/SightReading.pdf (sightreading skills)
http://www.bulletproofmusician.com/ (go to the blog)
http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/Oboe/practice.html
http://www.davidberkman.com/projects/books/
http://www.bandworld.org/pdfs/SPRINGMindMuscleandMusic.pdf
http://stringvisions.ovationpress.com/2011/12/the-case-for-active-practicing/#sthash.1uFAN98f.dpuf
http://pom.sagepub.com/content/19/1/3.short?rss=1&amp%3bssource=mfc
http://www.kennywerner.com

http://www.frontiersin.org/Systems_Neuroscience/10.3389/fnsys.2013.00035/full
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/freakonomics/pdf/DeliberatePractice%28PsychologicalReview%29.pdf
https://jyx.jyu.fi/dspace/bitstream/handle/123456789/20881/urn_nbn_fi_jyu-2009411263.pdf?sequence=1
https://cml.music.utexas.edu/assets/pdf/Siebenaler1997.pdf
http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=12590.msg135990#msg135990

http://www.appca.com.au/proceedings/Part...%20Practice.pdf (can't make this work, please go to http://www.hispasonic.com/foros/estrategias-para-estudio-piano/449993/pagina9 post nš #123)

http://www.davidnevue.com/pianomyths.htm
http://www.musiciansway.com/downloads.shtml

IMHO there's nothing else worth reading on this subject. grin

Edited: if some links don't work directly, just copy and past in the search box. I could give anyone some other links to my googledrive, where some of the papers have already been outlined (so you can jump over the technical stuff and go to discussions)


Edited by mabraman (02/12/14 03:03 AM)
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#2229501 - 02/11/14 10:34 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
anrpiano Offline
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Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 174
Loc: Chicago
Wow! What a great compilation.

30+ years ago, while an undergrad and graduate student I endeavored to learn whatever I could about the learning process as it related to learning the piano. At the time there was virtually no direct research I could find. Most of what was available was research as it related to language. You had to work pretty hard to figure out applications for musical study. We have come a long way since then.
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#2229565 - 02/11/14 12:02 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 735
Loc: Leicester, UK
Mabraman , thanx for posting that great list. Much needed! Much appreciated!

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#2229862 - 02/11/14 06:40 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
mabraman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
First post edited, some links didn't work.

To me, best of texts are Wallick's, Maydwell's and those in bulleproofmusician blog, along with Bernhard's.
Some of the researches are very interesting too (it's always good to know you are following the right way despite what others may say)though they seldom prove anything but co-relation.

I'm very surprised about how little students are aware of this stuff (and sadly, teachers too, no offence intended).


Edited by mabraman (02/11/14 06:42 PM)
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#2230117 - 02/12/14 02:18 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
Tararex Online   content
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 433
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Thanks for some awesome links.
PDF...PDF...PDF huzzah!
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#2230127 - 02/12/14 02:34 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Excuse me for the next few years while I bury myself in all of these resources smile

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#2230143 - 02/12/14 03:22 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
mabraman Offline
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Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
Ha ha ha
Not that much, actually. Most of those articles are in the same direction, though you will find some interesting details in which authors differe from each other. For instance, on the self-demand of perfection issue, there's much to be read in bulletproofmusician (who is more in self-indulgence side).
Appart from Fink's monster method, the rest could be read easily in, say, 4 or 5 months. To really learn it, ingrain it...I'll let you know as soon as I can wink
The most difficult part is, to me, a)changing the learning style so as to make it structured; b)setting short term goals c)start with it!!
Hey, and I forgot this one (that you all have, already, donīt you?):
I think I read so much 'cause this way I donīt have time to...practice.
http://brenthugh.com/piano/piano-practice.html
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#2230789 - 02/13/14 02:09 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
wouter79 Offline
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Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3605
Interesting, thanks!
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#2231347 - 02/14/14 07:32 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
mabraman Offline
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Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
http://www-usr.rider.edu/~vrme/v13n1/Vision/Bugos.Final ed fa.01.14.09.pdf

http://calnewport.com/blog/2011/12/23/fl...d-piano-player/
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#2231411 - 02/14/14 09:49 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
supertorpe Offline
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Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 110
Loc: Spain. Cadiz.
Originally Posted By: mabraman
http://www-usr.rider.edu/~vrme/v13n1/Vision/Bugos.Final ed fa.01.14.09.pdf

http://calnewport.com/blog/2011/12/23/fl...d-piano-player/


The first link is broken. Here is fixed: Perceived Versus Actual Practice Strategy Usage by Older Adult Novice Piano Students

wink
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#2231534 - 02/14/14 01:35 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
mabraman Offline
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Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
wink
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#2231632 - 02/14/14 05:22 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
Lorcar Offline
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Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 34
I wish I could read all this, as I still struggle to find the right method....but as an adult beginner instead of a professional pianist, time available is what it is...
I read many of Bernhard posts, and went through all the steps: micro-subdivision, method, 20 minuts each section , repeat small segment instead of bigger one...
but really I dont know...when you dont practice as often as a professional or youngest student (I mean, 2 or more hours a day) it's really hard...

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#2231876 - 02/15/14 04:52 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: Lorcar]
mabraman Offline
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Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
Originally Posted By: Lorcar
I wish I could read all this, as I still struggle to find the right method....but as an adult beginner instead of a professional pianist, time available is what it is...
I read many of Bernhard posts, and went through all the steps: micro-subdivision, method, 20 minuts each section , repeat small segment instead of bigger one...
but really I dont know...when you dont practice as often as a professional or youngest student (I mean, 2 or more hours a day) it's really hard...

Maybe you (we!) are missing some points.
There's no such thing like "the method". One must seek for information in order to build his own routine, picking up advice from here and there, and then see what you can do with your spare time. Mine is, being realistic, one hour a day on keys/three and a half a week taking lessons (and a lot more reading, writing, thinking, whistling, listening to tons of music and memorizing it by ear, etc.).
I'm yet to try Bernard's system, or I should better say part of it. I expect no miracle, no speedy progress. I'm neither an adult prodigy nor a future virtuoso. I just know a little more each day, and expect to increase my learnig rate by applying those ideas of deliberate practice (which are not Berhnard-made, but Berhnard-compiled instead).I mean, my goal is to understand why I practice and how to do it cleverly. If I do it well, results will come for sure. And for results I mean just a solid, progressive learning, that I don't feel today, with my current no-method. You are right, we canīt work as pros or students do, we are just amateurs and that's it.
One more, short and clever:
http://www.thomasheflin.com/arationalapproachtopractice.pdf

Next is in spanish but from page 42 on, there's a practical chapter in which we'll find examples of how to cut a score into chunks. Starting from elementary and going on. Brilliant!
http://cursoshacermusica.com/CHM/images/..._la_prctica.pdf


Edited by mabraman (02/15/14 05:49 AM)
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#2231987 - 02/15/14 11:07 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: supertorpe]
malkin Offline
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Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2691
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: supertorpe
Originally Posted By: mabraman
http://www-usr.rider.edu/~vrme/v13n1/Vision/Bugos.Final ed fa.01.14.09.pdf

http://calnewport.com/blog/2011/12/23/fl...d-piano-player/


The first link is broken. Here is fixed: Perceived Versus Actual Practice Strategy Usage by Older Adult Novice Piano Students

wink


I read that one. I would love to participate in the design of a follow up study. I would want to see how having the students record data on their practice changed their outcome. And I wouldn't give 19 strategies. I'd stick to somewhere between 1 and 5.
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#2232396 - 02/16/14 03:09 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
wuxia Offline
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Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 106
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Is the OP link broken only for me?
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#2232454 - 02/16/14 07:19 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
mabraman Offline
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Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
It is, today smile
Google it by author and title and doc. format. I found it casually, but it was easy.
By the way, some of the links contain protected materials (copyright). I just use them for my study purposes, and share them because I guess you'd like them too, for identical reasons.


Edited by mabraman (02/16/14 07:24 AM)
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#2234068 - 02/19/14 06:47 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
mabraman Offline
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Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
Wallick's pdf , pp. 100 and following: main strategies used by elite pianists, with practical examples.
This book is a must!
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#2235858 - 02/22/14 08:54 AM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
joangolfing Offline
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Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 667
Loc: Iowa
Thanks Mabraman, I agree that the Wallick PDF is amazing. I copied section 7.3 Suggestions for efficient practice to a Word document and studied it closely.

This is where Wallick summarizes what he uses from all his research.

I have changed how I practice now after reading this report.
1. I use 3 day plans
2. Hands alone practice until piece is learned
3. Hands alone practice BUT TOGETHER (hands together practice but emphasize left hand first. Overpressing, fingering, hand positions, musical details. Then emphasize right hand.
4.Don't overdo metronome practice
5. Don't overdo slow play
6. Play sections 10, 15, 20 times instead of 5.
7. Frequent practice sections during the day
8. Practice less numbers of pieces.
These are just some of the practice ideas I have learned from Wallicks PDF.


Edited by joangolfing (02/22/14 08:56 AM)

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#2235995 - 02/22/14 02:16 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: joangolfing]
StarvingLion Offline
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Registered: 06/30/13
Posts: 226
Originally Posted By: joangolfing
Thanks Mabraman, I agree that the Wallick PDF is amazing. I copied section 7.3 Suggestions for efficient practice to a Word document and studied it closely.

This is where Wallick summarizes what he uses from all his research.

I have changed how I practice now after reading this report.
1. I use 3 day plans
2. Hands alone practice until piece is learned
3. Hands alone practice BUT TOGETHER (hands together practice but emphasize left hand first. Overpressing, fingering, hand positions, musical details. Then emphasize right hand.
4.Don't overdo metronome practice
5. Don't overdo slow play
6. Play sections 10, 15, 20 times instead of 5.
7. Frequent practice sections during the day
8. Practice less numbers of pieces.
These are just some of the practice ideas I have learned from Wallicks PDF.


Whats so amazing about it? Every amateur without a teacher will self-discover separate hand practice, overpressing, rhythmic variation. The Cortot version of Chopin op.10 etudes should be the ideal starting place right at no.1 which is basically a right hand etude that is very simple to memorize. Even reducing no.1 to first page only, and eliminating the left hand altogether...few if any adult beginners can play that at 100bpm (never mind the marked 176) with no errors consistently. Wallicks 153 pages of common sense don't help one bit.

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#2236001 - 02/22/14 02:24 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
jotur Online   blank
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Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5640
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Wow, Starving Lion, that was quite a, um, rant!

For one thing, I don't think it's true that *every* amateur without a teacher will discover these things. And those who do discover them will discover or find them at different times in their development and in/from different places. And many of us, I say "us" because I'm an amateur without a teacher, and have been for almost 30 years, will think it's amazing for ourselves when we discover/find them, even tho we know that others have discovered/found them before us.

And for me any way, common sense comes after and as a consequence of experience in any thing I do, not as a precursor.

YMMV, of course, but other people's mileage varies from yours, also.

Cathy
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#2236007 - 02/22/14 02:29 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
tangleweeds Offline

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Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 1269
Loc: Portlandia
Edited to say: Ignore me.

Doh! I couldn't find the link (since it was right up there at the top of the thread, being the OP and all).



Edited by tangleweeds (02/22/14 02:30 PM)
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#2236081 - 02/22/14 05:24 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: joangolfing]
Sand Tiger Offline
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Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 1089
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: joangolfing
Thanks Mabraman, I agree that the Wallick PDF is amazing. I copied section 7.3 Suggestions for efficient practice to a Word document and studied it closely.

This is where Wallick summarizes what he uses from all his research.

I have changed how I practice now after reading this report.
1. I use 3 day plans
2. Hands alone practice until piece is learned
3. Hands alone practice BUT TOGETHER (hands together practice but emphasize left hand first. Overpressing, fingering, hand positions, musical details. Then emphasize right hand.
4.Don't overdo metronome practice
5. Don't overdo slow play
6. Play sections 10, 15, 20 times instead of 5.
7. Frequent practice sections during the day
8. Practice less numbers of pieces.
These are just some of the practice ideas I have learned from Wallicks PDF.


I don't mean to single anyone out. However, these are just opinions. Just the last few days and weeks there have been almost the opposite advice, though again just opinions.

Things such as:
* increase the number of pieces, even for advanced students
* limit the repetitions to about three minutes of time (possibly three reps)
* slow isn't slow enough, most trying to do slow aren't going slow enough

This doesn't even get into the more controversial hands-separate vs. hands-together, where both camps have ardent supporters. It is another reason why Internet research has diminishing returns and limited value. Virtually every opinion has its supporters and detractors.

As for the troll on the thread, every beginner hopefully learns to ignore the trolls. The Internet is a place where trolls look to say idiotic, ridiculous things, just so someone will get riled up and respond. The whole point of the game is to get responses. No responses, no fun for the troll.
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#2236104 - 02/22/14 06:11 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
StarvingLion Offline
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Registered: 06/30/13
Posts: 226
Lay the blame where it belongs...squarely on the shoulders of Bernhard who turned learning the Chopin and Liszt etudes into rocket science. The Liszt book 'Technical studies' is perfectly adequate for producing the necessary foundation. I don't think anybody is actually doing it though.

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#2236113 - 02/22/14 06:43 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: StarvingLion]
joangolfing Offline
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Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 667
Loc: Iowa
The difference in what I read on Wallick's PDF wasn't the hands alone idea which is a very common practice. What I thought was different was the hands together practice put the emphasis on the left hand while the right hand was playing along. And then switch the emphasis to the right hand. It requires the brain to focus on one hand while demanding the other hand keep up using the subconscious brain. One hand must be on autopilot while the other hand is being thought about.
And I didn't expect others to agree with any of these practice ideas since we must discover them ourselves. Even those that have teachers like I have.

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#2236126 - 02/22/14 07:28 PM Re: An interesting approach on pianists practice [Re: mabraman]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2437
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Sand Tiger
... the last few days and weeks there have been almost the opposite advice, though again just opinions...
* increase the number of pieces, even for advanced students
* limit the repetitions to about three minutes of time (possibly three reps)
* slow isn't slow enough, most trying to do slow aren't going slow enough

It helps to say many things both ways, practise more pieces or fewer pieces. People need to see that there are indeed other ways and they frequently need to be told a few times before they get the message.

I don't see anything new in Wallick's dissertation. The information is easy to find on good piano sites but it can take several reads for the import to be recognised. I've often read something umpteen times before the penny finally drops. I mentally argue against something because I know it won't do it for me and when I finally try it and it works...

Increasing the number of pieces, or doing fewer, really depends on how many are being tackled each day. I'd be chary of doing less than three pieces a day for most days or more than six per hour of daily practise. The advice to do more is for people spending long sessions on only one or two pieces a day and the advice to do fewer is for people not spending sufficient time on the pieces they're "practising" to make progress.

Three minutes of repetitions looks wrong. The number of reps done varies, for me, depending on what's being done. Memorising a new passage needs five to ten reps/day but securing a playable passage needs only two or three (allowing thought between each one for evaluation, correction, mental rehearsal, etc.) but higher numbers can be usefully used if there's consideration behind the number and the concentration engaged.

One of the keys to varying the rhythms is that it requires huge amounts of concentration (esp. in non-scalar passages) and this provides repetition without boredom or mindlessness. The fioriture in Chopin's music is an ideal example of the need for high numbers of reps in varying rhythms to instil the notes into the fingers without being repetitive or boring and high numbers allow the result to be light, controlled, fast and effortless.

Many players, especially beginners, play slower than the indicated speed simply because they have to. For them this is slow play. Some go down to half speed or a quarter speed once the piece is learnt and think that really is slow! More accomplished players know the benefit of going so slow there's almost time for a cup of tea between each note. It uses huge, really huge, amounts of patience, concentration and discipline but it brings effective results though it can take years to learn this (and may take years to benefit from it) and takes some effort to adopt the practise on a daily basis.

On the other hand, many are wary of not playing fast for fear of making mistakes. This too can be deleterious. Slow play must be balanced with playing up to tempo (and beyond) once the notes have been learned. Only playing at tempo can show how the fingers and hands need to move for the passage and how far ahead the brain needs to think, that is, what you should be thinking of while you play the current passage - and it's not the current passage!

It isn't that internet research has diminishing returns or that for every opinion there's a contrary one, knowledge is very valuable and can often be priceless but some things work better for others and for some both ways can have a place. When you stop seeing new things perhaps it's time to limit research and go with what you've learned so far. It's impractical to try everything in different permutations and over different lengths of time trying to see how it works for you. You won't find Nirvana because you'll be spending too long on the less effective ways but it's surely thick-headed to continue on in the same way without trying new ideas every now and then.
_________________________
Richard

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