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#2235761 - 02/22/14 12:29 AM Question for the Rebuilders.....
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 687
The owner of a M&H that I'm looking at claims this partial rebuild was done for about $8000:

" Piano has had the Soundboard refinished, refinished plate, replaced felt and buffing hardware. Replace strings, replace pinstock, replace tuning pins, replace dampers, replace hammers replaced keytops, check action. Replace caster wheels. Finished November 2005. RESTORED BY RENNER PIANO Service in Houston Texas."

I believe "pinstock" was meant to be "pinblock".

The piano looks and plays like a new one, except for the
cracked, original soundboard.

Does $8000 seem like a correct figure for this amount of work?

Thanks in advance.....


Edited by Paul678 (02/22/14 12:32 AM)

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#2235765 - 02/22/14 12:36 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21658
Loc: Oakland
Seems about right.
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Semipro Tech

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#2235778 - 02/22/14 01:53 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: BDB]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 687
Originally Posted By: BDB
Seems about right.


Ok, thanks.

The owner is asking $4,500. So for certain he's
going to take a loss on this one. He already
rejected my offer of $4,000 so he's just trying
to get what he can.

The cracked soundboard doesn't seem to affect the tone,
which was great when I tried the piano, but I will try
it once more to make sure I wasn't imagining things....

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#2235835 - 02/22/14 07:04 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 295
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
You're asking the wrong people. Contact a qualified tech in the area and have them evaluate the piano.


Edited by Jon Page (02/22/14 07:05 AM)
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Jon Page
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#2235847 - 02/22/14 08:08 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
Monaco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 387
Loc: GA
I'd take that job for $8k
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Piano Teacher
Beginning Tech

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#2235903 - 02/22/14 10:49 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Jon Page]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7877
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Jon Page
You're asking the wrong people. Contact a qualified tech in the area and have them evaluate the piano.


+1
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#2235929 - 02/22/14 11:33 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Jon Page]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21658
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Jon Page
You're asking the wrong people. Contact a qualified tech in the area and have them evaluate the piano.


That would be the case if he were asking about doing the job, but he is not. He is inquiring about a job done years ago.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2235950 - 02/22/14 12:19 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Unless it's a top-tier grand, anyone will lose money selling a piano they had rebuilt. IMO, that shouldn't matter, because a piano is not a financial instrument. I really wish we would stop looking at them that way.

Monetary return on investment and musical appreciation are not relevant to each other.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2235952 - 02/22/14 12:23 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: BDB]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 687
The job was done back in 2005.

I just wanted to know if the figure he gave me for the work was
realistic. I've looked at the piano, and it looks like
everything he stated was indeed done.

But I will likely have a tech look at the piano anyways.

If about $8,000 was really what he paid for the partial re-build, then it's truly a buyer's market at the moment, and he's going to lose quite a bit on this deal.

I should buy this piano really.....

Thanks.

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#2235956 - 02/22/14 12:33 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3348
Originally Posted By: Paul678

I just wanted to know if the figure he gave me for the work was
realistic.


Yeah. That sounds about right.
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#2235959 - 02/22/14 12:35 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: OperaTenor]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 687
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Unless it's a top-tier grand, anyone will lose money selling a piano they had rebuilt. IMO, that shouldn't matter, because a piano is not a financial instrument. I really wish we would stop looking at them that way.

Monetary return on investment and musical appreciation are not relevant to each other.




You're right, Jim. I shouldn't always think
about things in terms of money, but that's very
easy to do.

If a piano speaks to me personally, and I can
reasonably afford it, I should buy it.

But I do want to test the seller's honesty,
because $4,500 plus about $200 to move the piano
is quite a chunk of change for most people.

Not to be taken lightly in my situation.

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#2236046 - 02/22/14 04:03 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: beethoven986]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Paul678

I just wanted to know if the figure he gave me for the work was
realistic.


Yeah. That sounds about right.


Yes, for what was done, that's correct.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2236048 - 02/22/14 04:06 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Paul678
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Unless it's a top-tier grand, anyone will lose money selling a piano they had rebuilt. IMO, that shouldn't matter, because a piano is not a financial instrument. I really wish we would stop looking at them that way.

Monetary return on investment and musical appreciation are not relevant to each other.




You're right, Jim. I shouldn't always think
about things in terms of money, but that's very
easy to do.

If a piano speaks to me personally, and I can
reasonably afford it, I should buy it.

But I do want to test the seller's honesty,
because $4,500 plus about $200 to move the piano
is quite a chunk of change for most people.

Not to be taken lightly in my situation.


Thanks. My mini-rant was more broadly directed than the question at hand. It seems like almost every time I see the subject of a rebuild come up, it focuses on the question of return on investment in terms of dollars spent, and I feel that's an obtuse point of reference.

But, I understand you wanting a little backup on whether what you're hearing is accurate. That's a sensible question to ask, IMO.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2236268 - 02/23/14 09:03 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
Ed Sutton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 42
If you get the piano for $4000 or $4500, you are the high bidder, and should not assume you can resell for more. In a buyers' market, your purchase establishes the going price. A high quality, fully rebuilt M & H A would sell in the $20,000s, and it should play "like new." That is not what you are buying, and if you like the piano, $4000 is a low price for a piano you will enjoy.

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#2236292 - 02/23/14 10:16 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Ed Sutton]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 699
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Paul - What Ed is saying about the going price is the key to whether you're doing okay with a deal or not. Going by what I've seen, this sounds like a fair deal. A summer ago we sold a Conover grand with a similar amount of work done for $4500 here in rural Iowa. Judging by the fact that I made one phone call to a prospective buyer, offered him the price and had a check for the amount in my hand a half hour later, I'm thinking I could have gone higher. A Mason and Hamlin is (in my experience) a better made piano than a Conover, so I would say if the restoration work was well done (hire a reputable technician to ascertain that), and you really like the piano, you're golden.

Here's the Conover we sold for the price you're talking about:

[img:center][/img]
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2236324 - 02/23/14 11:12 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
Monaco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 387
Loc: GA
$4500 for that is a steal! Related to another topic, who would recomend a new, low end asian piano over something like that?!?!


Edited by Monaco (02/23/14 11:12 AM)
_________________________
Ben Ereddia
Piano Teacher
Beginning Tech

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#2236326 - 02/23/14 11:23 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4215
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Yep some see the used Roll Royce or Jaguar as the better drive.
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www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2236396 - 02/23/14 02:05 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Chuck Behm]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 687
Wow, that Conover even looks like the M&H!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/drslick/sets/72157638568484836/

Same beautiful finish.

Again, this M&H played and felt like a new piano, and even looked new except for the cracked soundboard.

In regards to Rolls Royces and Jags, would the M&H be
considered the Jaguar?

Haha!

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#2236407 - 02/23/14 02:29 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Wow. Too bad about those cracks.

Have you gotten under it and knocked on the ribs in the vicinity of the cracks? That's one way of checking for buzzes and rattles from them; it's checking to see if the ribs have come unglued.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2236435 - 02/23/14 04:04 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: OperaTenor]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 687
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Wow. Too bad about those cracks.

Have you gotten under it and knocked on the ribs in the vicinity of the cracks? That's one way of checking for buzzes and rattles from them; it's checking to see if the ribs have come unglued.



Yeah, it's a bit too late to replace the soundboard now,
right? It really should have been done during the rebuild (as per the other thread about newer soundboards being better). My guess is that the cracks in the soundboard are quite possibly the main reason the seller has not been able to sell this piano.

However, the tone was still fantastic, so it doesn't seem like this will matter to me. Other people are more concerned about cosmetics, but I'm more about tone and feel.

I didn't notice any buzzes or rattles, but when I look at the piano again, I will definitely check the ribs.

Thanks for the tip....


Edited by Paul678 (02/23/14 04:06 PM)

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#2236572 - 02/23/14 10:26 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2189
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Are the cracks wide open or are they just a dark line or two along the grain? It is dry indoors this time of year so they are likely to be open to the maximum for your climate right now.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2236605 - 02/23/14 11:58 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 699
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote:
Wow, that Conover even looks like the M&H! - Paul


Hi Paul - It didn't look like much when it was delivered to the shop. It was a freebie, so we had no initial investment in it. Here it was when it was dropped off:

[img:center][/img]

As far as crack in the soundboard, many older pianos have them, oftentimes without noticeable effect on the tone or volume of the piano. If the piano plays and sounds like a dream, figure that the crack is probably saving you several thousands of dollars.

I bought a Jet band saw once that was a floor model. It had a little ding in one corner, and they took off $200. It still is a great saw, and I've never once been bothered by the dented corner! Chuck
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2236648 - 02/24/14 05:08 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 687
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Are the cracks wide open or are they just a dark line or two along the grain? It is dry indoors this time of year so they are likely to be open to the maximum for your climate right now.


The pics were taken around December of last year, which was fairly high humidity for Tucson. It's driest around May and June.

You could not see through the cracks, and they are with the grain, as you see in the pics, and there are more than one of them. Several actually. I will take a second look soon....

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#2236650 - 02/24/14 05:22 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Chuck Behm]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 687
In response to Chuck: Yes, even true professional or serious semi-pro musicians will be concerned with cosmetics, just for aesthetics, even if it's just for their personal use.

Here's what the seller claims:

"This piano first home was in astabula Ohio from the early 1900 to 1998. Was then moved to southern California, from 1998-2004. Then moved and restored in Houston TX, in 2004. Shipped in early part of 2006 to Tucson AZ to present time."

I'm wondering why the soundboard was either not replaced, or at least the cracks not cosmetically treated, during the re-build. Is it possible the cracks were not there at the time, and only formed here in Tucson, starting in 2006? Is it possible cracks of that nature could form in the 8 years the piano has been in dry Tucson?

I know my Martin guitar did not have significant cracks until I moved from California to Tucson. It's very dry out here in the desert.....

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#2236681 - 02/24/14 08:14 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 699
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Paul - If the piano was built in 1900, and it still has the original soundboard, it would be very unusual (in my opinion) for there not to be any cracks. The soundboard is in essence a wooden membrane just a little more than 1/4" thick made of spruce planks merely butt-jointed together. When it gets dry, the wood naturally loses some of its moisture content, and cracks open up. These will either be absolutely straight, indicating a butt joint opening, or will follow a grain line. In humid weather, they will become less obvious as the wood swells - sometimes to the point where they can't be seen at all. Then, when a dry season has its effect, they will open up again.

Look and see if you see evidence of shims in the soundboard, which would indicate that the rebuilder attempted to fix any crack which were showing. It is very possible that the when the piano was worked on, it wasn't as dry in the rebuilder's shop as it is in its present home.

Take a look at this picture of the soundboard of a piano which we had in our shop. When I looked at the instrument in the client's home it was summer and the air was hot and humid. I saw a few hairline cracks, but nothing else. When the piano was brought to the shop, and I worked on it over the following winter, the cracks started opening up. And opening up. And opening up! I believe I installed 24 shims:

[img:center]http://[/img]

My guess is that the rebuilder fixed what he saw, but the piano is now considerably drier than it was. Chuck
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2236710 - 02/24/14 09:56 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Paul, what Chuck said.

Also, since the cracks have that black grit/oxidation in them, I have to think they predate the rebuild.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2236734 - 02/24/14 10:54 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Chuck Behm]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 687
Chuck, I assume your technique is similar to this:

http://www.jonespianohouse.com/JPH_Gallery_Soundboard.htm

Although your shims appear to be thinner. So your point is that the cracking can re-occur, even after a shimming repair has been done, right?

I didn't notice any evidence of shimming, and I still don't see any in the pictures. I seems to me that they would still be obvious, even though you attempt to stain blend the woods.

If these cracks did predate the rebuild, perhaps the re-builder decided not to shim them, in order to preserve the original tone as much as possible?

In what way can the shimming process alter the tone? Isn't degradation of the tone a risk?

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#2236763 - 02/24/14 11:59 AM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3348
Originally Posted By: Paul678
Chuck, I assume your technique is similar to this:

http://www.jonespianohouse.com/JPH_Gallery_Soundboard.htm

Although your shims appear to be thinner. So your point is that the cracking can re-occur, even after a shimming repair has been done, right?


That's how it's done, yeah.


Originally Posted By: Paul678
I didn't notice any evidence of shimming, and I still don't see any in the pictures. I seems to me that they would still be obvious, even though you attempt to stain blend the woods.


Some shops are really good at hiding them, but most of the pianos I see with shims are obviously shimmed.

Originally Posted By: Paul678
If these cracks did predate the rebuild, perhaps the re-builder decided not to shim them, in order to preserve the original tone as much as possible?


No. What "original tone"? The stiffness of a soundboard changes over time, which alters the impedence of the soundboard. An 80 year old soundboard, while still possibly useable, is not going to sound the same as it did when it was new.

Originally Posted By: Paul678
In what way can the shimming process alter the tone? Isn't degradation of the tone a risk?


No.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2236976 - 02/24/14 06:56 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 699
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Hi Paul - Actually, the techniques used in the link you posted are a bit more advanced than my methods. I'm still using hand tools to fit the shims - not a better method by any means than what you get with someone using power equipment - just what I'm used to and comfortable with. My only tool for cutting out the cracks in preparation for a shim is a hand-drawn gouging tool, as shown here:

[img:center]/[/img]
_________________________
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2236990 - 02/24/14 07:23 PM Re: Question for the Rebuilders..... [Re: Paul678]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Chuck does it 'old school'; the way i was taught. wink
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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