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I define "over-thinking" as anything that takes more than half a page to explain. :-)
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Aren't we somewhat over-thinking this? Who's "we"? Sorry but I never know who is being indicated when the "royal we" is used to make a point.
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I was addressing the idea of imitating, and two sides of imitating - and this was written in response to what I had written. All young musicians copy, and all students.... Just staying with this small bit for a moment: Thinking from my own student experience, yes copying has been part of it. There are things we don't understand for producing it ourselves, but we can grasp a fair bit by imitating. As it enters our bodies and ear, that also leads to our growth and eventual independence. As it continues To some extent this is necessary, but obviously by copying you will not reach anything original.... Exactly. Well, for this originality, the musician draws on his understanding of how music works, and the student isn't there yet. But later on, when he does understand more, I think that early experience of imitation plays a role. It goes "So that's what that was about! I wonder how else I might tweak this." Or the early imitation goes us some kind of concrete first example of what can be done with music. The biggest problems I see with copying is that the thing copied will be inferior, and the young player will not know why. The reason why - I'm thinking - is because of the skills and knowledge that have gone into that playing. HOW is the thing being done, and WHY is it done - what is behind it? The teacher knows what skills his student still needs, and what he put into the playing. The student only hears magic and wants to reproduce it. The student is trying to produce the final effect, while the teacher as musician has applied strategy and skill which the student still has to learn. Since the student doesn't know this, that's where the discouragement you wrote of early comes from. With a copy the best you can hope for is a perfect copy, and that's why even when a virtuoso DOES copy amazingly well, it does not have the same impact. I think here you're moving on to something else - perhaps the factor of originality. Can you explain further?
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I define "over-thinking" as anything that takes more than half a page to explain. :-) You can write a one-liner which nobody but yourself will understand, and then what is achieved? People try to deal with subjects that are not simple, in cartoon fashion. That doesn't work well. Some things don't lend themselves well to forums, but some do bother reading. One can but try. I'd suggest saying what you mean. Humpty Dumpty let words mean whatever he wanted, but who wants to be a giant egg on top of a wall talking to itself?
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Thinking from my own student experience, yes copying has been part of it. There are things we don't understand for producing it ourselves, but we can grasp a fair bit by imitating. As it enters our bodies and ear, that also leads to our growth and eventual independence.
That was pretty much what I tried to say. [Originality] Well, for this originality, the musician draws on his understanding of how music works, and the student isn't there yet.
I guess that's what I was saying. Everyone has to imitate at first, probably MOSTLY imitate. I don't want to make this complicated. I'm trying to express very clear, simple ideas. The rest, IF it comes, has to come later. Of course the skills have to built, and all the rest. The biggest problems I see with copying is that the thing copied will be inferior, and the young player will not know why. The reason why - I'm thinking - is because of the skills and knowledge that have gone into that playing. HOW is the thing being done, and WHY is it done - what is behind it?
Again, I was expressing something very simple. The copying part is a healthy, necessary stage. No one starts out without it. Students start out copying because they can hardly have original thoughts in the very beginning, then there is a slow evolution towards thinking everything through. If a teacher or a system discourages that evolution, then the student does not develop his/her own ideas. This is getting way longer than I wanted to go with this.
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Thank you, Gary. We're on the same page with this.
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When I originally wrote about "imitation" I was thinking about something different which unfortunately seems to happen too often. Maybe to make it clear I should start with what is missing with this thing:
(missing): A student should be guided in certain things that he will not think of himself. * Dividing up the music in small sections, and working strategically - this being done by the teacher in the beginning, in order to learn to work that way. * Learning how to physically produce dynamics. Learning to bring out out separate voices. * How to produce legato, staccato etc. * Pedal. Etc. And then how to put that into the piece. This may seem obvious and self-evident - but is it always done?
In this form of "imitation", the teacher (who is't giving the above) says "Watch me (plays a fantastic sounding piece), see how easy it is / see how nice you can make it sound / etc. ?" - but none of the above is happening. The student doesn't know HOW to get to the music.
I guess it's not so much about imitation, as it is about giving the things I have designated as missing. The student who is taught in this way will be in despair, because without those tools, he can't reach what has been demonstrated, but doesn't know there is a cause and a solution.
(A variant of the above is where the student isn't willing to get those skills, and wants to get at the music through "magic")
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Last edited by Ken Knapp; 02/23/14 11:42 PM. Reason: Personal attack deleted.
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Seems the Pianist Corner is not the only place where threads deteriorate into flame wars.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Last edited by Ken Knapp; 02/23/14 11:41 PM. Reason: Deleted advertising. You can find John Thompson lots of places.
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And there is more than one person who posts without reading the thread.
Learner
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Seems the Pianist Corner is not the only place where threads deteriorate into flame wars. Flame wars will not happen here.
Ken
Hammond Organ Technician Piano Torturer
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Let's hope they don't.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Maybe we are done with this topic, but it would be nice to see the rest of us who were talking politely continue until we wish to end it.
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It is interesting to note that the poster who resurrected this thread posted only one rather sharp response to the first comment his post received and then has not been heard from since.
Private Piano Teacher MTNA/NJMTA/SJMTA
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It is interesting to note that the poster who resurrected this thread posted only one rather sharp response to the first comment his post received and then has not been heard from since. True, but no one owns a thread, not the person who starts it or the one who resurrects it. When a thread restarts there are many who wish we would just start a new thread instead, but that doesn't always work. I've tried it in the past. This whole subject is very important to me because the whole question of fingering, how much to use in editing, is hugely relevant to what I do. I write my own materials, and I continually rethink where I put finger numbers, and why. That is very much in line with talking about JT, who started his beginning materials with every finger number indicated.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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