Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats?

Hi Alfredo,

Thanks for the questions.

The term tone refers to the pure quality of the 12th or the 19th, not that it is a 12th or 19th.

The note with the damper will not ring sympathetically with the pure 12th or pure 19th below, and thus allows us to compare the tone of a note a 12th or 19th below that does have the higher partial resonating.

The next note (without the damper) will ring with its pure cousin below, and depending on which interval was tuned pure, that note will excite the undamped note.

So, tuning pure 2:1 octaves will not create this resonance, because they produce narrow 12ths and 19ths. It's a trade off.

I hope that's clearer.



Depending on how well they sit. How easy is it to get all the intervals to sound good? A pure 19th may not sit well on a piano that has high iH; the treble octaves may be too wide. Maybe a pure 22nd will work. Pure 22nds have accompanying tempered 12ths.



I think I answered that above, but generally, classical concerts on 8 or 9 foot concert grands, encourage me to tune wide intervals more pure. I imagine the pianist with arms outstreched, slamming down a fortissimo bass chord with a shreaking treble slam. The treble octaves would not be as in tune with the lower larger intervals if they were tuned pure 2:1.

However, for jazz, with close harmonies, I'm not as worried. Close treble work in the high section would sound much better with the pure 2:1 , IMHO.

Of course, this is just how I think about these things. I haven't done any research on it or asked others what they hear when I'm tuning.

Went back a bit, the above was posted here on February 22, 2014 12:50 PM

Hi Prout,

Perhaps it makes a difference if I tell you that also "in the high treble", 5ths, octaves, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths are well discernable.

You ask: ..."..do (we) hear just the pureness of a 2:1 octave standing apart from the rest of the instrument, or do we hear those upper notes as being part of and fed by the lower notes?"...

For me it is the latter, I hear octaves (and any other interval) as "being part of and fed by the lower notes"; I would only add that octaves too (as all intervals) feed the lower notes, in a 'circular' relationship.

..."I definitely wanted and had pure octaves from C6-C8 - a necessary requirement when most of the piece is played in that range and mostly in octaves, and trying to be an ensemble instrument, not a soloist."

Hmmm... You mention "pure octaves" and there might be a gap already, meaning that you might hear "pure octave" when they are not; you say "...a necessary requirement..." and I do not understand why "necessary", perhaps you would exclude beating octaves... when you hear beating octaves?

The last issue, "..trying to be an ensemble instrument, not a soloist.", I would have a question for you: Do you think you would need two different tunings, one for ensemble and one for soloist?

Regards, a.c.
.

Hi Alfredo,
My measurements, using a flat response microphone, of the notes, struck by hammers, in the range from C6 and higher indicate significant energy in the first and second partials, and much, much less energy in the third partial. The sustain of the notes from C7 up is so short that tuning those notes to any other than the second partial of the octave below seems futile. More to come. Must eat now.

After spending an entire weekend with guitarists that are not satisfied with the status quo on what sounds in tune or not in recording sessions, I really think the piano tuning "bullies" that want only ET and flat trebles will find what they did in these times mocked as being "period tuning" in the future. A reason to want to buy new recordings that actually have the piano sounding appealing to the listener!

Yes, this is often the reason for advocating the 2:1.
Tuning them to the 12th below produces consistently wide 2:1, without having to hear or test the 4:2.

Good morning Mark et al,

Mark wrote - "The note with the damper will not ring sympathetically with the pure 12th or pure 19th below, and thus allows us to compare the tone of a note a 12th or 19th below that does have the higher partial resonating.

The next note (without the damper) will ring with its pure cousin below, and depending on which interval was tuned pure, that note will excite the undamped note.

So, tuning pure 2:1 octaves will not create this resonance, because they produce narrow 12ths and 19ths. It's a trade off."

I missed Mark's point for several days, then it hit me. This is the problem I have been experiencing on my piano since I got it. F6 is the last damped note. F#6 and the next several notes ring sympathetically like crazy with their related 12th and 19th below and cause an annoying change in the tone of the lower notes. Being ignorant of this at first, I asked my tech to voice the offending notes. He declined, though he did suggest that we could make careful cuts in the E6 and F6 damper to allow them to bleed slightly and ease the transition to undamped notes. I declined.

I have found that sympathetic vibrations are excited even though the related partial is not perfectly in tune - the range capable of causing excitation being +- 5Hz or more. This implies, and my ears tell me, that the 12th and 19th below are excited when I play from C6 up. C6 is, for some reason, beatless at the octave, 12th, and 19th. C#6 and up, not so much. My wife hears C6 as flat, and C#6 as in tune. Can't please everybody it seems!

This phenomenon is very similar to what I experienced when I roped in random students tor listen to the bass metes of a piano I was tuning and make changes. (see my post of about a week ago). Some of the differemt perceptions may also be subtle tonal changes. Notes can be where a rib crosses the bridge, near a plate strut, on a change of string gauge, a change in non speaking length at either of both ends of the speaking length or any combination of the foregoing. No two adjacent notes are sounding under the same mechanical conditions. They are all subtly different. Ask any tone regulator who has to reconcile all these differences at the hammer. It all makes for very different change in percePtion of pitch. This is just a few of the parameters that change perception in seemingly in different ways for different people. I have had music students who, once they perceive a note as flat, will raise it and never find a spot where it is perceived as "in tune" again.

I always baulk when I hear "most musicians" or "my more discerning clients", etc. I work among some of the finest musicians in the world today, or at least those shoo are experienced in scrutinising their own playing of timing after every take.
yet I can't get inside their heads to find out what "they" prefer. I have conducted casual tests and results from each individual are so so different. All I have is their total acceptance of what we give them. There are five major symphonies in this town and about as many musicians again in the freelance field.

I just heard a string trio playing a transcription of the Goldberg variations each musician was a well known major orchestral section leader. Their performance was exceptional in intonation. All historically accurate non vib playing. I asked them about how they arrived at their accurate intonation. The first reply was, playing in G major for hours and hours. (their intonation faltered a bit in one of the minor key movements Another was," it's like watching where you are going in traffic except listening where you're going in a musical context". I asked them whether they considered the temperaments. There was an unanimous. "No". Yet all their intervals were, to all intents and purposes, pure and their melodic intonation was based on that except where they sensed the freedom to use modern melodic intonation. . They were all Manchester people. Nothing the least bit pretentious about them Lancastrians

Bill, sorry If you feel bullied. Are your guitarist friends into fretless guitars? I had a band mate on the SS Rotterdam who, while he played fretted on the job, he practiced for hours on a fretless. Fixed frets limit the possibilities for guitarists. How did they get around that?

To test whether the tonal differences are caused by the missing damper, manually dampen F#6, and play B3 or B4. Does it change?

At the moment, having just tuned the piano, B4, the most problematic, is not too different from the surrounding notes, though it still sounds as if its own damper is bleeding (it's not), which blurs the clarity of a moving line. After a few weeks of heavy playing, all the Bs on the piano get really harsh and annoying. This piano has tuned rear duplexes which really sing as well. Great for big works, but I dampen them out sometimes when practicing polyphonic music.

Hi Alfredo,

I used the phrase 'pure octaves' without being clear. Sorry. I do not know yet what makes a 'pure octave', other than to say when I hear it, I like it, though, as rxd pointed out using students, I can hear it as in tune one moment and flat the next, depending on how I choose to hear it. Whether it is wide, or narrow with regard to a given partial, I cannot say.

With regard to the 'Trout', I was not concerned with how those upper octaves fit with the rest of the piano (heresy I know), only that they be it tune with themselves, whatever that means.

I am not in a position to judge the merits of stretching the upper treble to add brilliance and projection to the back row for a piano used as a solo instrument for a concerto. As a listener to a chamber recital of solo piano, I would not want brilliance in the upper end, I would want balance for a listener only metres away.

To all, please forgive these ramblings, I do not mean to offend.

Having read a little research on inharmonicity in guitar strings, guitarists have their own issues trying to get everything in tune when stuck with frets (usually fretted in ET, though not necessarily taking into account the changes in iH when they choose different wrapped strings). I can see why a guitarist would practice on a fretless guitar. They would presumably learn to hear some 'better' quality of intervals, which would allow them to slightly warp the fretted pitch on the fly.

Hi Prout,

I tend to believe what you say, your sense of "in tune", your hearing beats, your music practice and artistic experience, your general knowledge on instruments and their "problems", although... I know nothing about you... you "do not mean to offend".

I started playing guitar when I was five and gave concerts later on, perhaps that's why I cannot share some comments about playing guitar fretless. Yes, the board_fret "division" is not the optimum and I would have some ideas... Have you yourself ever played a fretless instrument?

On your own piano, do you have a personal/trusty pro piano technician?

Regards, a.c.
.

Hi Bill,

You wrote: ..."I really think the piano tuning "bullies" that want only ET and flat trebles will find what they did in these times mocked as being "period tuning" in the future. A reason to want to buy new recordings that actually have the piano sounding appealing to the listener!"

Should I believe you have a Time mismatch? Cannot you hear that what you are doing in 'these time' is being heard as "period tuning"? What is it, Bill, that obscures your view onto evolution?

Hi Prout,

You wrote: ..."I can see why a guitarist would practice on a fretless guitar. They would presumably learn to hear some 'better' quality of intervals, which would allow them to slightly warp the fretted pitch on the fly."...

Hmmm..., Yes, perhaps if that was demonstrated I would not think that that is nonsense.

Adjusting pitch on the fly (IMO) it is a false idea, a cliché, and perhaps a cheap_and _easy source of pride. And I think that you can understand that only if you have spent thousand of hours for refining intonation. Please note, nothing to do with pitch bending or tone emphasis, which I understand and appreciate, when it is the case.

k

Hi Alfredo,

I have never, sadly played an un fretted or a fretted (clavichord excepted) instrument, and I accept your knowledge and experience regarding the guitar.

Yes, I have a trusty piano tuner/technician. He plays cello as well, and is about to arrive at my home to rehearse.

Cheers

Thank you for your reply, Prout, enjoy your rehearse.
.

Hi All,

I think it is simply amazing how we can hear intervals by size, and how we are able to play "in tune" beyond any border, and any cultural heritage.

I am sure you will enjoy listening to these young, fabulous talents. I would only like to add that fretless (bow) instruments too have their constraints, four notes corresponding to four free strings which are tuned at a very precise pitch, so defining the (one) "pitch family" (fixed scale) relation. On this, you will understand than only one note (A4 or any other), once it is fixed, it is enough to define the 'pitch family' and the correct size (or... what it should be) for all intervals.

Mengla Huang (China)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc6MWufS1tM

Sayaka Shoji (Japan)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAkw_Wi4yIo

If possible, here after, things get more difficult... If you like, let me know your idea, what would happen with a fretless guitar?

Ning Feng (China)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBuBfLsf4xI

Regards, a.c.
.

It will have to be next life, perhaps a pianist, perhaps a violinist, still have to make up my mind. :-)

Have a good night.

MAXIM VENGEROV (Siberia)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luL1T1WQC2k

Hi Alfredo,

I play trumpet professionally. We have slides on our valves that we push in and out depending on what note we are playing in what chord/key. This is not about pride or a cliche. It's about playing in tune.

Also, adjusting pitch on the fly is imperative if you want to play in tune with other musicians in an orchestra. Of course this is only possible if all the musicians have the same level of intonation skill. Otherwise, it is fruitless, and disheartening for those with a heightened sense of intonation.

Perhaps I misunderstand your comment?

All open strings can be played as higher positions on the lower string, except the lowest string. That is how they get around playing a note that is on an open string, at a different frequency.

And the open string has a different set of partial amplitudes than the stopped string, so sounds quite different.