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#2237679 - 02/25/14 09:40 PM What piece do you have completely mastered?
ChopinLives81 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 1367
Loc: New York City
Now there are two ways to place this question;

1)Mastered as in you play it perfectly with generally little or no critique from yourself or the general public.

2)Mastered in that you have reached complete control over the piece regardless of it's interpretation.

I'm asking the 2nd version here. I ask this because I realized I have only one piece like that and that's the Prelude to Bach's 2nd English Suite. even though I've forgotten parts of it, I can still play through most of it with not an ounce of uncertainty. I am in complete control of every note and I can feel every stroke and every finger as I play it to the point where I can think about how I want to execute every single one of them. I could read a book while playing this piece and not be distracted.

Every other piece I know there's a level of "i don't think it's good enough" or " I hope this section comes out right" there's always a level of uncertainty.

I'm sure other have at least one piece like this.
_________________________
"A Sorceror of tonality; the piano is my cauldron and the music is my spell, let those who cannot hear my calling die and burn in He11."

Check my videos @:
http://www.youtube.com/user/chopinlives81

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#2237691 - 02/25/14 10:12 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
PianistOne111 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 292
Loc: Utah
I don't think I have anything I'm completely satisfied with.
_________________________
One111

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#2237694 - 02/25/14 10:19 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
hreichgott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 893
Loc: western MA, USA
I have a few, but they still require brushing off the dust for a few days if I haven't played them in a while.

Chopin, waltz in C sharp minor
Handel, Air and Variations from Suite in B flat
Beethoven, second movement of piano sonata Op. 13 "Pathetique"
Rachmaninoff, Prelude in B major Op. 32 no. 11
Mozart, K. 330 (I like 310 more but it makes me work harder!)
Bernstein, Four Anniversaries
Harrison, Reel: Homage to Henry Cowell
And all of Suzuki books 1-4 with the exception of the Bach Partita excerpts -- if it's Bach and I haven't prepared it meticulously for THAT performance, something can always go wrong...

But here's the thing, every piece, even the Twinkle variations in Suzuki book 1, I rethink every so often. Like right now I am working a lot on relaxation and I thought I had relaxation figured out like 16 years ago. So I end up having to completely redo my physical approach to a piece that was solidly "in the bag"... with my previous technique. It ends up sounding better but sometimes it's actually more work than learning something new.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2237752 - 02/26/14 12:53 AM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
I am never, ever satisfied. It's unfortunate, because I recognize that there are a few pieces I can play decently, but I just can't bring myself to a place where I don't find a hundred faults.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2237759 - 02/26/14 01:12 AM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3715
Loc: Bay Area, CA
I wouldn't say I've "completely mastered" anything. But I'm playing Bach's Bb Partita, and, for some reason, Minuet I has really come together in a very comfortable way. (Minuet II is a different story.)

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2237769 - 02/26/14 02:01 AM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Roland The Beagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 204
Loc: California
Truly satisfied? Nothing, sadly. I've come kind of close with a couple of pieces, maybe about 60%.

I'm too blame for my own ludicrously high standards, of course.
_________________________
Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2237788 - 02/26/14 04:28 AM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
I've never mastered any piece. Ever.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2237819 - 02/26/14 06:23 AM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: ChopinLives81
I could read a book while playing this piece and not be distracted.


That makes it sound as if by "mastered", you mean "can play on autopilot". To me, that's not the same thing.

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#2237852 - 02/26/14 09:18 AM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: wr]
ChopinLives81 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 1367
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: ChopinLives81
I could read a book while playing this piece and not be distracted.


That makes it sound as if by "mastered", you mean "can play on autopilot". To me, that's not the same thing.




you can't leave out everything else I said though. that quote is not the whole story.
_________________________
"A Sorceror of tonality; the piano is my cauldron and the music is my spell, let those who cannot hear my calling die and burn in He11."

Check my videos @:
http://www.youtube.com/user/chopinlives81

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#2237864 - 02/26/14 09:42 AM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19228
Loc: New York City
Someone could easily think they've mastered a piece according to their own standards but the same piece could sound terrible to someone more knowledgeable. So to ask a non professional if they've mastered a piece makes relatively little sense IMO.

When posters talk about getting pieces "performance ready" my first thought is performance for who and with what standards. They usually don't mean the standards of an audition for Curtis.

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#2237920 - 02/26/14 12:02 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Pathbreaker Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1036
Loc: Massachusetts
I just posted a piece by Brahms to member recordings and ABF recital before that and I would call it both performance ready and...done...for lack of a better word ha

I have high standards for what I would call mastered, whatever that means, (and who doesn't). But my standards are much lower for performance ready. In this case I've made my last recording, so I'm done with it.

Even though it's probably the hardest piece I play, I would also call it the piece I have mastered the most. In this case mastered means I can start playing it from any measure or any phrase from memory at any time. I know exactly how I would approach any moment of the piece from a technical or interpretive standpoint. Basically I know how I want to tell the story and I can sit down right now and make a reasonable attempt with no prior preparation. I am not at all happy with the way I play it and I think I will try it again in 5 or 10 years and hope I will get closer to Katchen or Varsi or Firkusny. I have my own ideas about the piece and my own vision but it still feels like I'm scratching the surface. But I am happy enough to let it go.

I would probably rephrase the question because "completely mastered" is not what I would call this piece. It's really not even close to that. It's hard to use words like this. For example, Schiff tries to explain how he is now ready to attempt Beethoven when retirement is probably just around the corner. He implies that mastery would not have been possible before this. Maybe it never is. And complete mastery? You probably didn't mean it literally.

So I would call the Brahms Op. 76 no. 1 the only piece I can describe in the way I did above. The rest would require significant time and practice. I learned a number of easier pieces last year and played them okay. But because I've only spent a fraction of the time on them and I don't currently practice them they are nowhere near as mature or known to me. The last piece I felt this way about was also by Brahms (118/2) several years ago but I took a few years away from piano after that. I think it would take several months to bring it back to the same level of comfort as the 76/1.

Click to reveal..
Might have to do with the fact that I started playing it in 2006 shocked

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#2237928 - 02/26/14 12:12 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: Pathbreaker]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4840
I think I had the Schumann/Liszt Widmung completely mastered, when I made a recording of it for a piano website last year.

However, I did start learning it in circa 1980 (before most of the posters here were born), so I guess that after thirty-odd years, it's ripened, blossomed, matured, flowered, seasoned and just about ripe for picking.

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#2237960 - 02/26/14 01:11 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 377
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
Mastery? I laugh at the notion of that. Piano music is a wrestling match I'll never win, but at least I'm wrestling with beauty... most of the time

Forrest
_________________________
Graham Fitch's Piano Pedagogy Site
(A WORTHY RESOURCE!)

--------------------
current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Beethoven Op. 78
Bach WTC 1, C# Major (#3)

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#2237976 - 02/26/14 01:41 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Atrys Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 928
I think it's a good thing to believe or acknowledge that one has not mastered any material; it's what drives us to keep going, to constantly pursue the image of perfection. Most (all?) master pianists will never say that they have mastered any repertoire. Perhaps we have some evolutionary mechanism that prevents us from ever being truly and wholly satisfied, so that we continue to pursue that which keeps us sane.

I think a piece is never done, it's just good enough.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2238013 - 02/26/14 03:19 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Svenno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/14
Posts: 138
Loc: Estonia
I don't think complete "mastery" exists - then again, i'm incredibly self-critical. But i do have one piece that might just fit into that category - Mendelssohn's etude op. 104 no. 1. That's the piece that won me my first piano competition, and one of the judges even said afterwards that it was the best interpretation of this etude that they've ever heard. And me being just a humble young piano student, i'm quite proud of it :p
_________________________
“Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination
and life to everything.”

― Plato

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#2238031 - 02/26/14 04:04 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: Pathbreaker]
ChopinLives81 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 1367
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pathbreaker

Even though it's probably the hardest piece I play, I would also call it the piece I have mastered the most. In this case mastered means I can start playing it from any measure or any phrase from memory at any time. I know exactly how I would approach any moment of the piece from a technical or interpretive standpoint. Basically I know how I want to tell the story and I can sit down right now and make a reasonable attempt with no prior preparation. I am not at all happy with the way I play it and I think I will try it again in 5 or 10 years and hope I will get closer to Katchen or Varsi or Firkusny. I have my own ideas about the piece and my own vision but it still feels like I'm scratching the surface. But I am happy enough to let it go.


With my questions intent, you have the right idea with this answer. This is really what I'm referring to. I don't want everyone to confuse what I'm asking with being able to play a piece note-perfect and one-of-a-kind performance. I meant exactly what I described myself and what you have just described.
_________________________
"A Sorceror of tonality; the piano is my cauldron and the music is my spell, let those who cannot hear my calling die and burn in He11."

Check my videos @:
http://www.youtube.com/user/chopinlives81

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#2238054 - 02/26/14 04:45 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19228
Loc: New York City
How can one have mastered a piece and be "not at all happy with the way I play it"? If one hasn't even met their own standards, no less the standards of someone with more knowledge, it seems like a complete contradiction.

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#2238131 - 02/26/14 08:01 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 831
Loc: New York City
4'33"
_________________________
Learning:
Beethoven op 27 no 1 allegro vivace
J.S. Bach wtc book I prelude 10, fugue 10
Exercises

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#2238134 - 02/26/14 08:03 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
Well, someone had to say it.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2238136 - 02/26/14 08:10 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: Polyphonist]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 831
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Well, someone had to say it.


I meant that's probably the only piece anybody can really play perfectly. I read a book when I was in school, don't know the title or author but at the end there was a room of "perfect" people who never did anything for fear of making a mistake and not being perfect anymore.

I don't know but maybe there's a lesson somewhere in there.
_________________________
Learning:
Beethoven op 27 no 1 allegro vivace
J.S. Bach wtc book I prelude 10, fugue 10
Exercises

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#2238194 - 02/26/14 11:04 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Roland The Beagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 204
Loc: California
Mastered for me means being able to give full and total realization of your musical conception of the piece, with technique being nothing more than the effortless delivery method. In other words, barring what you might call 'freak errors' (the very small random off chance of an error that can never be totally controlled for), every performance will fulfill that realization.

It's not impossible, it's just very, very difficult, and requires extraordinary effort and discipline. Most of us will have trouble mustering the concentration and careful practice required, because we are just dying to make some music after so many grueling hours even if isn't perfect. This is my experience. But I will never keep pushing for this, and I get closer and closer with some pieces. I just may be able to get closer sooner if I could be even MORE focused...
_________________________
Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2238195 - 02/26/14 11:06 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
gooddog Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4781
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Definitely, The Wood-Chuck. Yes, I can say without any doubt that I have mastered this piece. It is completely memorized and ready to perform. Here is the entire score if you want to learn it:


(Nostalgia time: this was the first piece of music I was assigned at my first piano lesson. smile )
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#2238197 - 02/26/14 11:10 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Pathbreaker Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1036
Loc: Massachusetts
Well I tried to read between the lines because it seemed well established that the word mastered is not useful.

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#2238211 - 02/26/14 11:38 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
MikeN Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 579
Loc: Ohio
No, I don't have one. *Sigh* No matter how well I might have learned a piece, I still wonder if I couldn't have balanced that texture a little more, had a bit more evenness and clarity in a passage or a clearer and stronger understanding and connection with the music. Maybe someday.

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#2238214 - 02/26/14 11:48 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
What the chappie really means is ... what piece have you memorized to such an extent that your fingers (mostly) find all the notes, however the ham rendition ... no need to try to bluff yourself you're sounding like Ashkenazy.
regards, btb

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#2238217 - 02/26/14 11:53 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: btb]
MikeN Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 579
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: btb
What the chappie really means is ... what piece have you memorized to such an extent that your fingers (mostly) find all the notes, however the ham rendition ... no need to try to bluff yourself you're sounding like Ashkenazy.
regards, btb
Really, It seems like the original post is asking for a mastery that's more so beyond that. Strike that, I just notices the little to no in the first requirement. I guess I'll post. White Peacock, Barber nocturne, maybe the Brahms Op.76 No.2, and the Prelude from the D minor Prelude and Fugue in book two. There are a couple of smaller more lyrical pieces I could add to the list that I don't care to recount.


Edited by MikeN (02/27/14 12:05 AM)
Edit Reason: correcting thoughts

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#2238704 - 02/27/14 07:13 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Michael Forbes Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 27
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Master? Hmmm. Tough one. There are songs I feel comfortable with. Vivaldi's "Spring" comes to mind as a song I feel I can get through fairly well. But I am reluctant to use the word "master." Fur Elise makes me crazy. I hit the notes, but there is always that uneasiness that I'll tank a note. And my version just doesn't seem to "flow" like others I've heard. Still working on it.

Mike
_________________________
Michael Forbes

http://soundcloud.com/michael-forbes-5

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#2239227 - 02/28/14 08:19 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
Works1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 415
Loc: New York
The only piece I've ever "mastered" by my interpretation of the word is the Brahms Op.118/2. It also happens to be my favorite piece so this has something to do with it. Everything else is a work in progress, work abandoned, or a work played ok.

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#2239249 - 02/28/14 09:15 PM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
MichaelJamesMN Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/30/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Minnesota
There are several for me. Rachmaninoff Preludes Op. 3, no. 2, Op. 23, nos. 1,3,4,5,6,10. Op. 32, nos. 2, 5, 10 and 12. Also the complete Opus 3 is very solid, as well as several transcriptions.
Chopin: Ballades 1 and 3, several Preludes, Waltzes, Nocturnes, Fantasie, 2 Polonaises, Scherzo no. 2.
Beethoven: Several Sonatas (Moonlight, Pathetique, 81a, 90 All movements)
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque complete, both Arabesques
Brahms: 2 Rhapsodies, several Intermezzos
Schumann: Romance in F#
Grieg: Sonata in E minor Op. 7 all movements, Peer Gynt Suite (complete)
Mozart: A couple of Sonatas and Fantasy
Schubert: Impromptu Op. 90 nos. 1-4 (complete)
Haydn: 2 Sonatas
Bach: Partita no. 2 in Cm (I prefer transcriptions of Bach's works, truthfully)

That's it off the top of my head. I am very comfortable with all of the above. While my memory isn't what it used to be, all of the above can be played with the score on the piano, but I seldom look up for the majority of them. Still, I must have the music there to feel completely comfortable (there are exceptions to this rule, however). My current coach says there's nothing wrong with that either. Maybe that's why I like her so much. haha

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#2239374 - 03/01/14 05:14 AM Re: What piece do you have completely mastered? [Re: ChopinLives81]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 550
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: ChopinLives81
2)Mastered in that you have reached complete control over the piece regardless of it's interpretation.

"Complete control" is a bit difficult to define.
The way you describe it, it seems to me like you say you play it automatically, without thinking about it.
I'd prefer saying that "mastered" in that sense means that the piece has entered your muscular memory.

There are a few pieces I have played so often that they may fit in. Like the Schubert Impromptu op.90/2, or maybe Mozart's Rondo KV485. And maybe some other pieces I have played for years and play them every now and then.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

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