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Topic Options
#2237912 - 02/26/14 11:34 AM MP10 or MP11...
pnbgnr8 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 15
Hello.
I appreciate all of your input very much.

Earlier, I posted here asking very broad question which I understand some
consider not worth answering...now after reading past similar questions, I can
see and am sorry I didn't do my homework beforehand... And to those who
took the time and wrote in, I really appreciate your input. Thank you~!

Now, I actually narrowed down my choices...I think...
It came down to Kawai MP10.(or MP11)
Unfortunately, not many places carry that model in the stores.
I went to try the digital console style ones which has similar key action
and I loved it!!

Just out of curiosity, I tried CP209...I couldn't believe it was a digital
piano!!! I was blown away with that RM3 wooden action and so I can't
remember if I tried/liked the Grand Feel key action on other models...
Does CP209 have same key action as MP10? (can't tell if RM3 Wooden-Key,
Graded-Hammer Action w/ Let-Off is the same as RM3 Grand Wooden-Key
action with Let-off??)

I am little confused...I know that Grand Feel key action is the newest latest
technology and so in theory, its the closest thing to a real thing??

Since I am in the hobby pianist range, I am not sure which feel I should go for
if I want to eventually move back to acoustic maybe 10yrs or so down the
road...
At the same time, since I will more than likely stay in the hobby pianist field,
should I just get the MP10 instead of MP11...?

Is MP11 sooo much better than MP10??

Any input is appreciated...
Thank you in advance!

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#2237916 - 02/26/14 11:48 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12227
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I have not played an MP10 or an MP11 (yet - I will play the latter today!!!), but the GF action is the latest and greatest from Kawai, and form my understanding the best out there now. I have played the RM3 II action with graded hammer and let-off and found that to be awesome compared with acoustic grand pianos. The CP209 appears to have RM3 and not RM3 II, not sure what the difference would be there. Also the CP209 may lack triple sensors, which will affect things where fast repetition of notes is required. I'm not sure on the distinctions, but I know Kawai James would be able to clarify this more.

I think the big draw for the CP209 is the look of a grand piano. If you don't necessarily need the grand piano cabinet, then going with something like the CA65/95 would probably be better for you (and be a bit nicer to your wallet as well). That has the GF action which is the best Kawai has to offer. I think the 95 has better speakers than the 65.

Now if you're looking for something in a slab style, or you don't care much about having a furniture-like cabinet, the MP11 is the way to go. That also has the GF action.

If you can compare the feel of the CA65/95 to the CP209 you should notice a difference. In the end, it comes down to what you like the most.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2237917 - 02/26/14 11:50 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3880
Loc: Northern England.
Speaking from a bit of experience, (!) I`ve found that it doesn`t matter too much which keyboard you use to play pretty much whatever. Yamaha GHS is generally regarded as naff, and I`d concur with that. But it gets the job done for me, so really, I don`t think you`d have any problem with many of Kawai`s offerings keyboard wise. . . .I`d go for the sound every time. Stop worrying and wondering. Get playing! grin
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2237943 - 02/26/14 12:43 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 868
MP11. The third sensor in particular does matter. The longer keys may be more a matter of preference although the GF clearly has an advantage also in that respect.

I wouldn't be surprised if the sound generator in the MP11 is audibly better than that in the MP10. But I can't know since I've not yet played an MP11.

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#2237965 - 02/26/14 01:19 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
minstrelman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/07
Posts: 248
Loc: buffalo
Watched YouTube video for mp11.
Looks/sounds awesome.
GF is very very good.
Good system to play through, I would call a must.
From what I know, and saw on the video, the mp11 is a screaming no brainer, slam dunk buy.

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#2237968 - 02/26/14 01:22 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 67
I was unimpressed by the tone of the MP10, Its action I found sluggish and rubbery. The GF action is better - faster and more poised. I imagine the tone of MP11 will be at least slightly improved. I definitely think you should get the MP11. The price difference is negligable.

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#2237969 - 02/26/14 01:23 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Vid Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 888
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
I would spend the extra money for the MP11.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2237972 - 02/26/14 01:33 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Hookxs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 251
Loc: Czech Republic
You don't mention any price difference between the two and if that is the case, I don't see a reason to opt for MP10. For me personally, the price difference would have to be extremely huge.

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#2238033 - 02/26/14 04:09 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: pnbgnr8
[snip]Just out of curiosity, I tried CP209...I couldn't believe it was a digital
piano!!! I was blown away with that RM3 wooden action and so I can't
remember if I tried/liked the Grand Feel key action on other models...
Does CP209 have same key action as MP10? (can't tell if RM3 Wooden-Key,
Graded-Hammer Action w/ Let-Off is the same as RM3 Grand Wooden-Key
action with Let-off??)

I am little confused...I know that Grand Feel key action is the newest latest
technology and so in theory, its the closest thing to a real thing??


GF is the latest, but there are lots of different flavors of actions (both real and digital) so it's not clear that everyone will say it's the greatest or most similar to an acoustic. The key length is longer, which shoud be a win, but if you change one thing in an action, you change everything so it is possible that there are other aspects of GF that you like less than RM3.

There were several people who tried GF when it first came out and said they liked RM3 more. They are a minority, but you may be in that group.

The CP209 you tried has a lot of other features that may distract you from the actual action. I find it hard to compare actions if I'm not going straight from one to the other and if there is a big difference in the soundsThe same thing may have happened to you.


Edited by gvfarns (02/26/14 04:12 PM)

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#2238123 - 02/26/14 07:43 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9688
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
pnbgnr8, as others have noted, the CP209 utilises the original 'RM3 Grand' keyboard action. This keyboard action was also used used in the CA93/CA63 console models and MP10 stage piano.

The 'Grand Feel' ('GF') keyboard action is similar to 'RM3 Grand', however it features triple sensor key detection, longer keys, a longer key pivot, and counter weights in almost every key. This action is currently available in Kawai's latest CA95/CA65 and CS10/CS7 console models, and the new MP11 stage piano.

Given the choice between the MP10 and MP11, I would almost certainly opt for the latest model...however I'm obviously somewhat biased. wink

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2238140 - 02/26/14 08:34 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Chrisl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/14
Posts: 206
Loc: Chicago, IL
So James, is the GF better (more acoustic like) than the VPC1s RM3II? Not sure I'm following this correctly lol
_________________________
Yamaha P105, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II Am Concert D, Sennheiser HD650.

New sound setup: Midi out to macbook, FW 800 to Metric Halo LIO 8 DAC to HD650's. Very Nice.

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#2238146 - 02/26/14 08:59 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 67
How many times do you need this spelled out for you? Get the MP11...

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#2238147 - 02/26/14 09:02 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 67
M.P. Eleven

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#2238154 - 02/26/14 09:27 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
pnbgnr8 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 15
Thank you everyone for chiming in~!

I think...I might try to go for the MP11...I have to check with my hubby as far as funding is
concerned...(might help convince him by showing this thread)

I will probably try to go back to the store one more time to make sure which action I really like.
(I think they had console ones at the store but didn't check if those were the latest models...might
have been the older model...looked pretty worn out...)

As far as the differences in key actions...thank you for clarifying. Just by looking at Kawai's site,
it was little bit confusing for me to figure out...

I really appreciate your input! I hope I can get my hands on it pretty soon!
Thanks~!

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#2238158 - 02/26/14 09:36 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Chrisl]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9688
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Chrisl
So James, is the GF better (more acoustic like) than the VPC1s RM3II?


Yes. The GF action has longer keys and a longer pivot point than the RM3II action so is - in theory - more acoustic-like.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2238179 - 02/26/14 10:34 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
GA MP6 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/18/14
Posts: 8
For what its worth, I looked at it this way for me. Let say I have the new MP11 10 years and its $300 more than the MP10. Will the $30 / year break me? Lets say I have it 5 years and it jumps to $60 /year difference in cost. Same answer, so I bought the MP11. Should be here by next week. grin

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#2238212 - 02/26/14 11:39 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 565
Loc: UK
OP: everyone wants you to get the MP11 because they(we)'re excitable schoolboys (and girl) who like reading about people getting the latest gear. Like Christmas by proxy. If you have infinite money and nothing much else to spend it on, then you might as well go for the latest and greatest. But if you were blown away by an older model like the CP209, doesn't that tell you that you will be just as happy with an older model? ("Old" is relative, and doesn't mean bad. Digital piano technology advances at a snail's pace, so 2 or 3 years is nothing. Some here swear that DPs have been in a downward spiral since the CLP 990 in 2001.)

Really, the difference between the MP10 and MP11 is not that great, and unless you've been using a comparably high-level model already, or have a peer group of digital piano buffs to whom you need to show off, you're not going to notice the difference. Save your money and get a good deal on the MP10.

(Incidentally, I'm not sure how you did your narrowing down, but you do realise that the MP10/11 is a professional stage piano? If you're neither a professional nor going to be using it for gigging, there's a good chance there would be better choices for you.)
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2238232 - 02/27/14 12:31 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Kawai James]
jeffreyfranz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/14
Posts: 34
Loc: Central California
James: I checked out the band in your You Tube link. Was that you on keys, on a Nord? Pretty nice playing. :-)

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Chrisl
So James, is the GF better (more acoustic like) than the VPC1s RM3II?


Yes. The GF action has longer keys and a longer pivot point than the RM3II action so is - in theory - more acoustic-like.

Kind regards,
James
x

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#2238240 - 02/27/14 12:45 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: GA MP6]
jeffreyfranz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/14
Posts: 34
Loc: Central California
Originally Posted By: GA MP6
For what its worth, I looked at it this way for me. Let say I have the new MP11 10 years and its $300 more than the MP10. Will the $30 / year break me? Lets say I have it 5 years and it jumps to $60 /year difference in cost. Same answer, so I bought the MP11. Should be here by next week. grin

I would love to have either one and can afford either. Approximately 70 lbs., however, is too heavy for me (plus case = 80-100 lbs.?). With my investment in such a nice keyboard, I would want to be able to take it with me for casual gigging with musician friends. Pulling 90+ lbs. in and out of my car is a bit much. This is the only reason I would consider something like the Yamaha CP-4 (38 pounds) or even the CP-40 (36 pounds) over the MP11. Even the MP7 will probably weigh 45-50 pounds. I would rather have the MP7 over either Yamaha, but again, every pound counts. crazy

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#2238249 - 02/27/14 01:00 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: jeffreyfranz]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9688
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: jeffreyfranz
James: I checked out the band in your You Tube link. Was that you on keys, on a Nord?


Yeah! <-- That part always makes me smile. wink

Originally Posted By: jeffreyfranz
Pretty nice playing. :-)


Thank you! wink I'm not much of a player, but I have fun and that's the main thing. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2238255 - 02/27/14 01:13 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Kawai James]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: jeffreyfranz
James: I checked out the band in your You Tube link. Was that you on keys, on a Nord?


Yeah!

Originally Posted By: jeffreyfranz
Pretty nice playing. :-)


Thank you! wink I'm not much of a player, but I have fun and that's the main thing. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Hip Japanese crew you got there! Very cool.
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2238264 - 02/27/14 01:50 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Kawai James]
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 67
Like it. Warm sound, cool vibe.

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#2238281 - 02/27/14 02:47 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9688
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Thanks chaps!

More info in the original thread here, by the way:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2104090/all

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2238287 - 02/27/14 03:55 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Marko in Boston Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 926
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
@James, OT, I took up on your style with the fingerless gloves a few times (as seen in your video). Great idea! It's been a tough winter in New England. A few gigs were very cold and the fingerless gloves worked perfectly. You should brand and market them specifically to keyboardists. I think you might know a few things about marketing... wink
_________________________
KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | TRAYNOR K4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS ERIS 5 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD380 | K&M OMEGA

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#2238290 - 02/27/14 04:09 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9688
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Fingerless gloves with a piano keyboard design - now that's an idea! wink

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2238312 - 02/27/14 06:24 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Kawai James]
minstrelman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/07
Posts: 248
Loc: buffalo
just watched your video for a few minutes. very nice.
very nice beginning for my day over my morning coffee. you play excellent James. your Sax player and me were both bopping along to your playing.
I was working on Elton John's Tiny Dancer on my CA65 with GF action, last night.
did soooooo much better, than I have in the past.
the GF action really is quite wonderful.

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#2238416 - 02/27/14 10:59 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
pnbgnr8 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 15
@Lolatu
Thanks for the sensible input!

Yes, actually, sensible part of me does question whether or not I am spending
too much on DP. In our case, it is a temp solution...in our moving every 3yrs
lifestyle, having more 'movable' DP until we settle down. Once we settle down,
maybe within 10yrs or so, we hope to own a real acoustic piano!

I was having this mind-set of DP being just like computers...they will have
updated version every 6months or a year... I had no idea their development
takes much longer! Its sorta comforting to know...its ok to like technology
thats few years old...(might not even considered to be 'old' in DP age...)

We did consider others like cabinet/console style DPs but didn't want
to think about possibility of getting damaged while transport and things like
that...so we thought maybe stage ones might be sturdier/make more sense to
us alternative...

I will probably go check the key action one more time and then decide which
choice makes more sense to us.

I appreciate your input! Thanks for taking the time...

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#2238469 - 02/27/14 01:33 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 247
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: lolatu
(Incidentally, I'm not sure how you did your narrowing down, but you do realise that the MP10/11 is a professional stage piano? If you're neither a professional nor going to be using it for gigging, there's a good chance there would be better choices for you.)


What are the better choices? I'm no where near being a professional and wouldn't be taking it out to gigs but in terms of slab DPs am most interested in the MP series.

I realized when I first started looking into getting a slab DP that it's usually the stage pianos that have the most sounds with the highest quality and most importantly the best actions.

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#2238696 - 02/27/14 06:51 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 565
Loc: UK
@pnbgnr8 you're welcome! Read the MP10 reviews online. They just say how great it is, and don't say they felt the keys were too short, or that it was OK but really needed another sensor. There's always something conceivably better, and whether it exists or not is immaterial. What matters is if the model you buy meets your needs and makes you happy. I'm sure both choices would do that - so get the cheaper one!

@Enthusiast Better choices depend on your preferences. Most home users will get a console type. Maybe something like the excellent Roland DP90 if you want it more stylish. It's not that much less portable than a slab since it easily disassembles into something resembling a large slab and a few bits of flat-pack furniture. If you really want a slab, then if you like Kawai, the ES7 might fit the bill. (Alternatives would be Roland FP-80 and Yamaha P255.) It's like half the price of the MP11, and has speakers, so you won't need external monitors, monitor stands, and maybe a mixer. You can also get a 3-pedal furniture stand for it. MP11 only has about 30(?) sounds, with no organs, so in comparison the ES7 has many more sounds this slab doesn't have more sounds than your average console (not that you really need more than about 5). But if you already have a home studio and lots of money, then the MP11 could work well as a controller. And the design is sexy.

You probably don't need the best action in existence. I don't know if you've tried any of the Kawai CA series, which have the same GF action as the MP11, but my feeling was that they're not that much better than either the RH action in the CN24, or the Roland PHA3/4 action. And while the feel nice, they are very lame when compared to the AvantGrands - which I say to illustrate the point that you should assess things on their merits rather than than looking ever up the food chain. People think that a wood action is somehow more authentic, but the GF action has just as much metal and plastic as any other - the only part made of wood is the key itself (not uncoincidentally the only visible bit). It's the geometry and weighting of the action that makes the difference to how it feels - not to any great degree, if at all, the material used. And it's not like the GF geometry is exactly new - take a look at a Fender Rhodes action circa 1984.



There are good reasons why DP makers moved away from such a design. Anyway, I'm digressing. I hope that was useful.


Edited by lolatu (02/27/14 08:24 PM)
Edit Reason: correction
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2238702 - 02/27/14 07:09 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9688
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: lolatu
MP11 only has about 30(?) sounds, with no organs, so in comparison the ES7 has many more sounds.


I hate to sound like the spec police, but the MP11 actually has 40 sounds (12 acoustic pianos, 12 EPs, and 16 subsidiary sounds), while the ES7 has 32 sounds (divided up into 8 categories). You are correct that the MP11 does not include any organs, however.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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