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#2238703 - 02/27/14 07:11 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
minstrelman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/07
Posts: 241
Loc: buffalo
I'm interested in a couple things in your post lolatu.
I played a CA93 for a very short time at a piano store. and then drove 30 miles to another piano store and played a CA65. I loved the action on both.
I thought they were both superb. I thought I was being smart to get the newer action in the CA65.
your last comment regarding DP makers moving away from GF geometry and/or design, makes me ask if you would please elaborate on that?

also, chances are that the OP is really choosing between 2 very fine Kawai options.
I like the GF feel enough on my CA65, that I would definitely recommend the MP11. (I was all psyched up to buy one, but then when they did not get released in the US at NAMM, I didn't feel like playing the waiting game, and got the CA65. a bird in the hand, maybe.....whatever.)
also, from my experience, sometimes in the gear holy grail search for the ultimate (say a piano made of the purest highest grade unobtainium known to man.......lol),
once you get to a certain point, its a game of inches.
you pay untold thousands more dollars for that last few percent of quality.
wow, just read for a second about AvantGrand. ouch. lotsa moolah.

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#2238715 - 02/27/14 07:48 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: lolatu
There are good reasons why DP makers moved away from such a design.


Price and weight, I should think. Since regular DP's do not actually require hammer impact, as the rhodes did, you can cheap out and use the all-plastic designs we see around. I'm not saying Kawai's wood action design is the be-all-end-all, but has a lot of advantages that I can see. The only disadvantages being price and weight.

FWIW I haven't been that impressed with the AvantGrands I've played. I freed up a budget appropriate for the purchase of an N2 and made the trip to a dealer, but after playing it I decided that it was a step down from my current piano. I figured I was temporarily insane so I made a trip to a different dealer later and felt the same way. Even if the AG were free I'd probably stick with what I have. I mention this to illustrate that there can be significant variation on opinions about these pianos, which may not correlate with price.


Edited by gvfarns (02/27/14 07:52 PM)

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#2238725 - 02/27/14 08:19 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Kawai James]
lolatu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 456
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I hate to sound like the spec police, but the MP11 actually has 40 sounds (12 acoustic pianos, 12 EPs, and 16 subsidiary sounds), while the ES7 has 32 sounds (divided up into 8 categories). You are correct that the MP11 does not include any organs, however.

Oops, I thought it had General Midi like the FP80. Thanks for the correction.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2238729 - 02/27/14 08:22 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9138
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Oops, I thought it had General Midi like the FP80. Thanks for the correction.


No worries. wink

Technically there are additional internal sounds, however these are used specifically for MIDI playback and are not selectable directly from the panel.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2238835 - 02/28/14 02:39 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: gvfarns]
enzo.sandrolini Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Europe - France
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: lolatu
There are good reasons why DP makers moved away from such a design.


Price and weight, I should think. Since regular DP's do not actually require hammer impact, as the rhodes did, you can cheap out and use the all-plastic designs we see around. I'm not saying Kawai's wood action design is the be-all-end-all, but has a lot of advantages that I can see. The only disadvantages being price and weight.

FWIW I haven't been that impressed with the AvantGrands I've played. I freed up a budget appropriate for the purchase of an N2 and made the trip to a dealer, but after playing it I decided that it was a step down from my current piano. I figured I was temporarily insane so I made a trip to a different dealer later and felt the same way. Even if the AG were free I'd probably stick with what I have. I mention this to illustrate that there can be significant variation on opinions about these pianos, which may not correlate with price.

Hello gvfarns
I just wanted to add my opinion on this point as I currently own a AG N2 and a VPC1
I must say, I was very happy with my VPC1..since I got my N2
Now, I find the action on the VPC1 really not authentic compared to the N2, and I need time each time to readapt myself on it
But I can say that even if I find the RM3 action the best amongst DP (and I have tried lots), it cannot be compared with an AG
It is my personnal opinion, as I can also understand you prefer the Kawai action
Everything is a matter of personnal perception, but I cannot let people think that the Kawai RM3 & GF action can really compare to the AG action
The key pivot lenght is only a very small part of the equation...
By the way, VPC1, MP11 are really good DP, and have certainly better quality price ratio than the AG you get a really good DP for far less the price of an AG...but the AG...is another thing.


Edited by enzo.sandrolini (02/28/14 02:40 AM)
_________________________
Music is a lifestyle

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#2238848 - 02/28/14 03:25 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: gvfarns]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: lolatu
There are good reasons why DP makers moved away from such a design.


Price and weight, I should think. Since regular DP's do not actually require hammer impact, as the rhodes did, you can cheap out and use the all-plastic designs we see around. I'm not saying Kawai's wood action design is the be-all-end-all, but has a lot of advantages that I can see. The only disadvantages being price and weight.

FWIW I haven't been that impressed with the AvantGrands I've played. I freed up a budget appropriate for the purchase of an N2 and made the trip to a dealer, but after playing it I decided that it was a step down from my current piano. I figured I was temporarily insane so I made a trip to a different dealer later and felt the same way. Even if the AG were free I'd probably stick with what I have. I mention this to illustrate that there can be significant variation on opinions about these pianos, which may not correlate with price.


I really wanted to like the N2. I tested it extensively and assumed it would be for me. The action felt nice and I liked the aesthetics, but there were several deal breakers for me, including the way it sounded, the way the action mated with the sound engine and the poorly designed control panel. I would certainly take one for free, but I would choose a Kawai CS10 or Roland LX-15e over the N2 regardless of price.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (02/28/14 03:26 AM)
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2238851 - 02/28/14 03:29 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 55
Agreed Enzo. Now to get back on topic, I definitely concur with the latest thoughts on the OPs prospective piano purchase. By the time you have decent monitor speakers, a worthy stand, separate pedals not to mention the MP11 itself, which is very sizeable, you are going to be less manoeuvrable than you would be with a console style DP (where you remove the slab from the stand when you move it).

Please elabourate on other features of the MP11, beyond its action and its ...huhmm... "Portability" that you are drawn to. Someone recommended the ES7 as a good sized DP for you. I would second that recommendation. Also you might want to check out some Roland pianos - the FP-7F for example. The tones are often preferred over Kawai's top end stuff.

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#2238875 - 02/28/14 05:05 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Kawai James]
evamar Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 541
Loc: Spanish living in UK
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: jeffreyfranz
James: I checked out the band in your You Tube link. Was that you on keys, on a Nord?


Yeah! <-- That part always makes me smile. wink

Originally Posted By: jeffreyfranz
Pretty nice playing. :-)


Thank you! wink I'm not much of a player, but I have fun and that's the main thing. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Fun certainly you have, and you all sound great too!

jeje... Captain Pork and the Spice Boys??? Whose idea was that?
_________________________
Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted



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#2238888 - 02/28/14 06:12 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 243
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: lolatu
@Enthusiast Better choices depend on your preferences. Most home users will get a console type. Maybe something like the excellent Roland DP90 if you want it more stylish. It's not that much less portable than a slab since it easily disassembles into something resembling a large slab and a few bits of flat-pack furniture. If you really want a slab, then if you like Kawai, the ES7 might fit the bill. (Alternatives would be Roland FP-80 and Yamaha P255.) It's like half the price of the MP11, and has speakers, so you won't need external monitors, monitor stands, and maybe a mixer. You can also get a 3-pedal furniture stand for it. MP11 only has about 30(?) sounds, with no organs, so in comparison the ES7 has many more sounds this slab doesn't have more sounds than your average console (not that you really need more than about 5). But if you already have a home studio and lots of money, then the MP11 could work well as a controller. And the design is sexy.

You probably don't need the best action in existence. I don't know if you've tried any of the Kawai CA series, which have the same GF action as the MP11, but my feeling was that they're not that much better than either the RH action in the CN24, or the Roland PHA3/4 action. And while the feel nice, they are very lame when compared to the AvantGrands - which I say to illustrate the point that you should assess things on their merits rather than than looking ever up the food chain. People think that a wood action is somehow more authentic, but the GF action has just as much metal and plastic as any other - the only part made of wood is the key itself (not uncoincidentally the only visible bit). It's the geometry and weighting of the action that makes the difference to how it feels - not to any great degree, if at all, the material used.


When I tried the ES7, FP-80 and P-155 I had issues with all of them and thought they were overshadowed by their stage piano big brothers. The ES7 slightly shallow keys, the FP-80 weak sound/speakers, the P-155 disliked the sound. The MP10's action felt the most realistic to me which was my primary concern at the time and my teacher agreed with me. The RD700NX (which is now going for the same price as the FP-80) had far more and better sounds including an AP which my teacher liked best and a great pipe organ that were absent from the FP-80. The price here of an FP-80 is only a little less than an MP10 (MP11 too if it's the same price).

If I were going for a console type I'd want something with a really good speaker system and they are far more expensive bigger and much heavier than even the MP11. Those ones like the CA95 I don't think can be disassembled either.

Since I may be getting more and more into music technology in the future the extra onboard controls, pitch bend and mod wheels of a stage DP would also come in handy.

I couldn't make my mind up at the time (summer last year) due to newer versions of those particular models I liked best looming imminently on the horizon. I got a cheap P-35 just to get started but will looking to do a lot more testing in the shops/practice rooms this summer and make a more premium long term purchase.

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#2239198 - 02/28/14 07:23 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: minstrelman]
lolatu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 456
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: minstrelman
your last comment regarding DP makers moving away from GF geometry and/or design, makes me ask if you would please elaborate on that?

I should preface this by saying that I'm largely speculating... smile Besides the obvious weight, size, cost (not just of raw materials, but of the engineering required to make wood actions that are even and reliable), I think the following could have been important:

- in the 1980s when DPs were conceived, the sound really wasn't very close to that of an acoustic. The action wasn't the limiting factor in realism, and it was obviously a different instrument to an acoustic. So there wasn't much demand for expensive actions that felt and looked like that of an acoustic grand.

- the availability of reliable plastics meant that plastic key actions were possible, and this allowed designs that would not be possible with wood keys. I've taken a Roland PHA action to pieces and can tell you that this would not be possible with wood, because wood isn't as durable and mouldable as plastic. Basically there's not much engineering reason to have the former design, when you can make one with similar performance in less space, by using better materials.

Quote:
also, from my experience, sometimes in the gear holy grail search for the ultimate (say a piano made of the purest highest grade unobtainium known to man.......lol),
once you get to a certain point, its a game of inches.
you pay untold thousands more dollars for that last few percent of quality.

Agree completely. And why pay through the nose for those inches when you're still several yards from your target?
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2239203 - 02/28/14 07:37 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Enthusiast]
lolatu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 456
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Enthusiast
When I tried the ES7, FP-80 and P-155 I had issues with all of them and thought they were overshadowed by their stage piano big brothers. The ES7 slightly shallow keys, the FP-80 weak sound/speakers, the P-155 disliked the sound.

You should probably stop trying the expensive models and be happy with what's available in the mid range! They're perfectly good enough for thousands of aspiring pianists. Of course there's always better if you want to spend a fortune, but don't let that make you unhappy with the cheaper ones. If you can't be happy with anything less than "the best", you probably have psychological issues and would be better off spending the money on some counselling... wink

Quote:
If I were going for a console type I'd want something with a really good speaker system and they are far more expensive bigger and much heavier than even the MP11. Those ones like the CA95 I don't think can be disassembled either.

Again, not sure what makes you such a special snowflake that the mid-range stuff is not good enough for you, assuming you're not a pro... also, you can sit a couple of small monitors on the end of your console if the sound isn't sufficient. I'm thinking of getting an HP504 with some of these, and it's going to sound great.

Quote:
Since I may be getting more and more into music technology in the future the extra onboard controls, pitch bend and mod wheels of a stage DP would also come in handy.

Perhaps, although you can get little dedicated controllers that you can sit by your music rest if you need that.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2239206 - 02/28/14 07:39 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
minstrelman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/07
Posts: 241
Loc: buffalo
thank you for your reply.
all of this is a fascinating subject. the design and evolution of the sound and touch/feel of keyboard instruments that are powered by electricity.
it is so interesting to read about other people's opinions and experiences with what is available now.
if I compare what I have now, to what I had 25 years ago..............man, loving life here!!!!

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#2239248 - 02/28/14 09:14 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 243
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Originally Posted By: Enthusiast
When I tried the ES7, FP-80 and P-155 I had issues with all of them and thought they were overshadowed by their stage piano big brothers. The ES7 slightly shallow keys, the FP-80 weak sound/speakers, the P-155 disliked the sound.

You should probably stop trying the expensive models and be happy with what's available in the mid range! They're perfectly good enough for thousands of aspiring pianists. Of course there's always better if you want to spend a fortune, but don't let that make you unhappy with the cheaper ones. If you can't be happy with anything less than "the best", you probably have psychological issues and would be better off spending the money on some counselling... wink

Quote:
If I were going for a console type I'd want something with a really good speaker system and they are far more expensive bigger and much heavier than even the MP11. Those ones like the CA95 I don't think can be disassembled either.

Again, not sure what makes you such a special snowflake that the mid-range stuff is not good enough for you, assuming you're not a pro... also, you can sit a couple of small monitors on the end of your console if the sound isn't sufficient. I'm thinking of getting an HP504 with some of these, and it's going to sound great.

Quote:
Since I may be getting more and more into music technology in the future the extra onboard controls, pitch bend and mod wheels of a stage DP would also come in handy.

Perhaps, although you can get little dedicated controllers that you can sit by your music rest if you need that.


Why would I buy something if I'm unhappy with it and find the more expensive models to actually be better and have a budget that can cover them? That is the point of going into the shop and testing them. I was still new to piano when I got those impressions but did go straight from playing on 2 different APs (Kawai upright and then a Yamaha Grand) to the shops on 2 occasions. I took my teacher along for another more experienced opinion and her impressions pretty much matched my own.

In the end I got the cheapest DP I could think of with a decent action the P-35 and left the more expensive purchase for later when I can make a better decision and have a better choice.

It's not a psychological thing about the price either since I didn't like the sound of the Avantgrand I tried a few months ago when I last visited a shop. I much preferred one of the piano samples on a CVP to any of the other Yamaha DP's in that shop. The action of the AG felt far more realistic though.

The 1500-1800 stage pianos I'm considering are a long way from being the most expensive DPs. This would be a long term purchase too so I have to look ahead and importantly be satisfied with what I've just tested.

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#2239269 - 02/28/14 09:50 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9138
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Again, not sure what makes you such a special snowflake that the mid-range stuff is not good enough for you...


Slightly condescending?
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2239290 - 02/28/14 10:58 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Kawai James]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11898
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Again, not sure what makes you such a special snowflake that the mid-range stuff is not good enough for you...


Slightly condescending?
It kind of came off that way to me, too. But I am of the opinion that someone should buy as good a piano as they can reasonably afford. That is because it can be so inspiring to be on a good quality instrument, and it can be very, very frustrating on something that you have to fight, or doesn't respond the way you want. Settling for less just because you're a beginner or will never be a concert pianist is pure rubbish, IMO.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2239340 - 03/01/14 01:50 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Morodiene]
Dan Clark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 175
Loc: Bellevue, WA USA
I'm pretty much a beginner and have a Casio PX-850. It's hooked up to a computer with three virtual pianos whose sound is excellent (Galaxy Instruments Vintage D is my favorite). With Rokit powered speakers and woofer, the output is very nice. But...

As I'm progressing, I'm noticing the limitations of the PX-850's keyboard action. I wouldn't notice except that I'm fortunate to take lessons on grand pianos at a piano store. Niiiiice! And then there is the CA65/95...

I had a chance to play a CA95 and was simply amazed with the Grand Feel keyboard action. Even a beginner like me could feel the difference. It was love at first (Grand) Feel. smile

So I've been looking... I don't want a CA65/95 because of the size and cost. The VPC1 is nice, but it won't fit my available space (it's too wide) and it doesn't have the Grand Feel keyboard.

Now we have the MP11. It's the right size, has Grand Feel, and the price is not exorbitant. BUT... It's a stage piano. With an enormous number of bells and whistles that a pro musician can use.

Yes, I know it's serious overkill for my needs, but I have to ask: Is it even remotely reasonable use this as replacement for my PX-850 where it will sit in one place pretty much permanently?

Thanks,

Dan.

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#2239344 - 03/01/14 02:13 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Dan Clark]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3599
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By: Dan Clark
I'm pretty much a beginner and have a Casio PX-850. It's hooked up to a computer with three virtual pianos whose sound is excellent (Galaxy Instruments Vintage D is my favorite). With Rokit powered speakers and woofer, the output is very nice. But...

As I'm progressing, I'm noticing the limitations of the PX-850's keyboard action. I wouldn't notice except that I'm fortunate to take lessons on grand pianos at a piano store. Niiiiice! And then there is the CA65/95...

I had a chance to play a CA95 and was simply amazed with the Grand Feel keyboard action. Even a beginner like me could feel the difference. It was love at first (Grand) Feel. smile

So I've been looking... I don't want a CA65/95 because of the size and cost. The VPC1 is nice, but it won't fit my available space (it's too wide) and it doesn't have the Grand Feel keyboard.

Now we have the MP11. It's the right size, has Grand Feel, and the price is not exorbitant. BUT... It's a stage piano. With an enormous number of bells and whistles that a pro musician can use.

Yes, I know it's serious overkill for my needs, but I have to ask: Is it even remotely reasonable use this as replacement for my PX-850 where it will sit in one place pretty much permanently?

Thanks,

Dan.


Interesting. I was lloking at the Casio range when deciding what to buy, recently. I was not happy about the keyboard despite most folk here thinking it was good. Good for it`s price, maybe. But the dreaded black notes tell their own story if you have long fingers.

I`m waiting for Casio to do the decent thing. New keyboard . . . . for nice, long pivot point. It`s got to happen soon, other manufacturers are dreading the moment it does. I`d wait a bit.

In your opinion, does the PX850 live up to the promotional videos soundwise? Because I`ve never heard a better piano at any price.(imo)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2239345 - 03/01/14 02:20 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: peterws]
Dan Clark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 175
Loc: Bellevue, WA USA
Originally Posted By: peterws
Originally Posted By: Dan Clark
I'm pretty much a beginner and have a Casio PX-850. It's hooked up to a computer with three virtual pianos whose sound is excellent (Galaxy Instruments Vintage D is my favorite). With Rokit powered speakers and woofer, the output is very nice. But...

As I'm progressing, I'm noticing the limitations of the PX-850's keyboard action. I wouldn't notice except that I'm fortunate to take lessons on grand pianos at a piano store. Niiiiice! And then there is the CA65/95...

I had a chance to play a CA95 and was simply amazed with the Grand Feel keyboard action. Even a beginner like me could feel the difference. It was love at first (Grand) Feel. smile

So I've been looking... I don't want a CA65/95 because of the size and cost. The VPC1 is nice, but it won't fit my available space (it's too wide) and it doesn't have the Grand Feel keyboard.

Now we have the MP11. It's the right size, has Grand Feel, and the price is not exorbitant. BUT... It's a stage piano. With an enormous number of bells and whistles that a pro musician can use.

Yes, I know it's serious overkill for my needs, but I have to ask: Is it even remotely reasonable use this as replacement for my PX-850 where it will sit in one place pretty much permanently?

Thanks,

Dan.


Interesting. I was lloking at the Casio range when deciding what to buy, recently. I was not happy about the keyboard despite most folk here thinking it was good. Good for it`s price, maybe. But the dreaded black notes tell their own story if you have long fingers.

I`m waiting for Casio to do the decent thing. New keyboard . . . . for nice, long pivot point. It`s got to happen soon, other manufacturers are dreading the moment it does. I`d wait a bit.

In your opinion, does the PX850 live up to the promotional videos soundwise? Because I`ve never heard a better piano at any price.(imo)

PX-850 sound is quite good. That is until you use virtual piano software and good powered speakers. Then it's no contest.

Dan.

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#2239352 - 03/01/14 03:00 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Again, not sure what makes you such a special snowflake that the mid-range stuff is not good enough for you, assuming you're not a pro... also, you can sit a couple of small monitors on the end of your console if the sound isn't sufficient. I'm thinking of getting an HP504 with some of these, and it's going to sound great.


Special snowflake? What kind of BS is that? First of all, whether it be keyboard or cars, if someone has the resources and wants the best, what is the problem? You don't need to be a pro to appreciate and enjoy a higher end instrument.

Second, sticking a pair of monitors at the end of your console isn't going to give you what higher end consoles like the Yamaha Ns, Roland LX-15e and Kawai CS10 give you. In fact, if you try to run monitors and your internal speakers at the same time, it might sound like crap.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (03/01/14 03:07 AM)
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2239355 - 03/01/14 03:05 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Dan Clark]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9138
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Dan Clark
The VPC1 is nice, but it won't fit my available space (it's too wide)...

Now we have the MP11. It's the right size.


Please note that both the VPC1 and MP11 are the same width at 138 cm.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2239399 - 03/01/14 07:58 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Hideki Matsui]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2083
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Again, not sure what makes you such a special snowflake that the mid-range stuff is not good enough for you, assuming you're not a pro... also, you can sit a couple of small monitors on the end of your console if the sound isn't sufficient. I'm thinking of getting an HP504 with some of these, and it's going to sound great.


Special snowflake? What kind of BS is that? First of all, whether it be keyboard or cars, if someone has the resources and wants the best, what is the problem? You don't need to be a pro to appreciate and enjoy a higher end instrument.


Lets try to look at it this way. The higher end DP's are no where near as costly as a decent AP. Also the higher end DP's are only "decent" as compared in the AP world.
Before I started actually playing. I thought the low end DP's should be good enough. I was disappointed. Then the mid range are a trade off compromise. Now were getting everything better.
I think we've lost focus ever thinking buying a high end DP is "special". It's dirt cheap compared in the AP world. If you can afford it. As a beginner, you'll be better off in every way.
I'm very thankful to the DP world. Without it I couldn't play.




Edited by rnaple (03/01/14 08:03 AM)
Edit Reason: forget it
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2239485 - 03/01/14 10:47 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: rnaple]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11898
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: rnaple
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Again, not sure what makes you such a special snowflake that the mid-range stuff is not good enough for you, assuming you're not a pro... also, you can sit a couple of small monitors on the end of your console if the sound isn't sufficient. I'm thinking of getting an HP504 with some of these, and it's going to sound great.


Special snowflake? What kind of BS is that? First of all, whether it be keyboard or cars, if someone has the resources and wants the best, what is the problem? You don't need to be a pro to appreciate and enjoy a higher end instrument.


Lets try to look at it this way. The higher end DP's are no where near as costly as a decent AP. Also the higher end DP's are only "decent" as compared in the AP world.
Before I started actually playing. I thought the low end DP's should be good enough. I was disappointed. Then the mid range are a trade off compromise. Now were getting everything better.
I think we've lost focus ever thinking buying a high end DP is "special". It's dirt cheap compared in the AP world. If you can afford it. As a beginner, you'll be better off in every way.
I'm very thankful to the DP world. Without it I couldn't play.




I agree. There is nothing wrong with buying the best piano one can afford, and I would argue that buying less simply because you are a beginner can result in losing interest from playing on something that is uninspiring. I also think, you're going to spend $1k on an instrument that you know you will need to upgrade in a year or two, and then fork over another $2-4k, then why not take the plunge and get something you can stick with for years? If you can manage it, that is. I'm not recommending one get into financial troubles over it.

I'm very glad there are DPs at the low end of the spectrum. Many of my students can't afford/have no room/have sound concerns with acoustics, and so a low-end or even used DP is a great option for them. Hopefully they are able to upgrade in the future, but that isn't always possible.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2239520 - 03/01/14 12:05 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Morodiene]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 243
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: rnaple
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Again, not sure what makes you such a special snowflake that the mid-range stuff is not good enough for you, assuming you're not a pro... also, you can sit a couple of small monitors on the end of your console if the sound isn't sufficient. I'm thinking of getting an HP504 with some of these, and it's going to sound great.


Special snowflake? What kind of BS is that? First of all, whether it be keyboard or cars, if someone has the resources and wants the best, what is the problem? You don't need to be a pro to appreciate and enjoy a higher end instrument.


Lets try to look at it this way. The higher end DP's are no where near as costly as a decent AP. Also the higher end DP's are only "decent" as compared in the AP world.
Before I started actually playing. I thought the low end DP's should be good enough. I was disappointed. Then the mid range are a trade off compromise. Now were getting everything better.
I think we've lost focus ever thinking buying a high end DP is "special". It's dirt cheap compared in the AP world. If you can afford it. As a beginner, you'll be better off in every way.
I'm very thankful to the DP world. Without it I couldn't play.




I agree. There is nothing wrong with buying the best piano one can afford, and I would argue that buying less simply because you are a beginner can result in losing interest from playing on something that is uninspiring. I also think, you're going to spend $1k on an instrument that you know you will need to upgrade in a year or two, and then fork over another $2-4k, then why not take the plunge and get something you can stick with for years? If you can manage it, that is. I'm not recommending one get into financial troubles over it.

I'm very glad there are DPs at the low end of the spectrum. Many of my students can't afford/have no room/have sound concerns with acoustics, and so a low-end or even used DP is a great option for them. Hopefully they are able to upgrade in the future, but that isn't always possible.


Yes exactly this is something that came up with my teacher of the time, that incremental updates might end up costing more in the long run. And I know from playing on much higher quality instruments and using software Pianos how much more enjoyable it can be.

When I first started I was using an unweighted 61 key keyboard with no stand or even a music rest. I kept trying to get by on that and delay when I'd get a DP. I had a couple of lessons on grands (Yamaha S4 and C3) and it was quite a contrast to say the least coming back to that setup I had at home. I then moved onto a P-35 with uncomfortable X-stand. Now with new models coming out and older versions coming down in price I'll spend a bit more and hopefully get something I'll be happy with for many years.


Edited by Enthusiast (03/01/14 12:09 PM)

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#2239537 - 03/01/14 01:01 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Again, not sure what makes you such a special snowflake that the mid-range stuff is not good enough for you, assuming you're not a pro... also, you can sit a couple of small monitors on the end of your console if the sound isn't sufficient. I'm thinking of getting an HP504 with some of these, and it's going to sound great.


There are lots of people who just buy whatever piano is cheap and available and think nothing more of it---they don't need the best. Those people don't tend to hang out in digital piano forums. People here are more likely interested in the best or at least the very best that can be had on a given budget.

I often see people say stuff like "you should stop researching pianos and just go play what you have" but that's kind of the opposite of what we do here. So there's no reason to say it.


Edited by gvfarns (03/01/14 01:03 PM)

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#2239573 - 03/01/14 01:53 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Kawai James]
Dan Clark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 175
Loc: Bellevue, WA USA
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Dan Clark
The VPC1 is nice, but it won't fit my available space (it's too wide)...

Now we have the MP11. It's the right size.


Please note that both the VPC1 and MP11 are the same width at 138 cm.

Cheers,
James
x

James,

Thanks for clarifying this. For some reason, I thought the VPC1 was 57 inches wide. So both would fit the space I have available - 54-3/4" wide.

Now about the MP11's Grand Feel keyboard... smile

Dan.

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#2239798 - 03/01/14 10:44 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
lolatu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 456
Loc: UK
Apolgies for any jimmies rustled! I probably phrased it badly.

Many interesting points raised... sorry I don't have time to respond to them all. So I'll just say that I would strongly disagree with the idea that you should spend as much as you can afford, on a DP or anything else for that matter. First, because it's not a useful guideline (what proportion exactly of my savings should I spend? surely not the whole lot?), and second, because it makes far more sense to spend as much as you need to, and not a penny more. Of course, how much you need to spend depends on a lot of factors, including what you're going to use it for (professional, or learning to play Twinkle Twinkle), what you can get for what amount of money etc. If Casio came out with a CA-65 beater for $1000, why should anyone pay more, even if they can afford it? But many people don't even need that level of sophistication, regardless of how much money they have. In short, buying things that are overspecified for your needs is really wasteful. If you still need something to spend the remaining money on, I can offer suggestions!
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2240035 - 03/02/14 11:02 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11898
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Apolgies for any jimmies rustled! I probably phrased it badly.

Many interesting points raised... sorry I don't have time to respond to them all. So I'll just say that I would strongly disagree with the idea that you should spend as much as you can afford, on a DP or anything else for that matter. First, because it's not a useful guideline (what proportion exactly of my savings should I spend? surely not the whole lot?), and second, because it makes far more sense to spend as much as you need to, and not a penny more. Of course, how much you need to spend depends on a lot of factors, including what you're going to use it for (professional, or learning to play Twinkle Twinkle), what you can get for what amount of money etc. If Casio came out with a CA-65 beater for $1000, why should anyone pay more, even if they can afford it? But many people don't even need that level of sophistication, regardless of how much money they have. In short, buying things that are overspecified for your needs is really wasteful. If you still need something to spend the remaining money on, I can offer suggestions!


Firstly, I have no jimmies to rustle.

Secondly, when you pay for a higher-end instrument, you also get better basics: a better sound, a better action. Sure, you get more bells and whistles that you may never need, but a manufacturer has to broaden the market to ensure greater sales. So often there will be overlap between the professional gigging musician, the music teacher, the adult beginner hobbyist, or the amateur advanced pianist.

I had to grow up learning piano on a spinet that had some sentimental value to the family - and that's the only value it had. While most of the keys worked, it could not be tuned because the frame was cracked, many of the low notes were little more than a "clunk", the only way one could coax a legato from the damper pedal was to employ that and the sostenuto pedals simultaneously...the list goes on. Needless to say, practicing was extremely frustrating even as a beginner, and uninspiring. I know that we are talking about something in disrepair and not simply something low-end but in full working order. But any time I could get I would gravitate to a piano and play it until those with me got annoyed and pulled me away - whether it be in a hotel, shopping mall, a stage, whatever. It was always such a pleasure to be able to play something that did what I heard in my head, something that actually responded rather than arm wrestled.

Another anecdote comes from many students over the years who were trying to learn piano on a keyboard or DP that was uninspiring. The transformation that took place in their playing once they upgraded their instrument was night and day - even for beginners who did not have aspirations to become a professional pianist.

From these experiences, I contend that one should get the best instrument they can afford - with the caveat that I had previously stated, without putting themselves in financial trouble. Having the right tool for the job - a piano-shaped object with 88 weighted keys - is just a bare minimum. Some will only be able to scrape up enough funds for that. IF you have the disposable income to get more, then you shouldn't short-change yourself, especially since upgrading will be in the near future thus increasing your overall investment in an instrument.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2240053 - 03/02/14 11:29 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 503
I agree with lolatu,
The law of diminishing returns cuts in somewhere around when One's needs/wants/aspirations (and mid term horizons) can be met, beyond that is excess.
Example; I know that I could afford a fairly good Grand, quite possibly a very good one, but my aspirations can be met with what I already have and I still have "room to grow" with it.
I am in no way "instrument limited" in the immediate or mid future.
It is VERY unlikely that I will every be limited by the instrument, which doesn't mean that I don't have ambition for my playing, but I am realistic about these things.

I have other spending opportunities for outlays of that magnitude.
(other opportunities for the space too).

While I'm SURE that a nice grand would REALLY inspire me to practice more and enjoy my playing more, the cost/benefit ratio wouldn't justify it.

I know, I know, not everything should be quantified in monetary terms, but the thought of "best I can afford" IS about money.

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#2240055 - 03/02/14 11:32 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: R_B]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11898
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: R_B
I agree with lolatu,
The law of diminishing returns cuts in somewhere around when One's needs/wants/aspirations (and mid term horizons) can be met, beyond that is excess.
Example; I know that I could afford a fairly good Grand, quite possibly a very good one, but my aspirations can be met with what I already have and I still have "room to grow" with it.
I am in no way "instrument limited" in the immediate or mid future.
It is VERY unlikely that I will every be limited by the instrument, which doesn't mean that I don't have ambition for my playing, but I am realistic about these things.

I have other spending opportunities for outlays of that magnitude.
(other opportunities for the space too).

While I'm SURE that a nice grand would REALLY inspire me to practice more and enjoy my playing more, the cost/benefit ratio wouldn't justify it.

I know, I know, not everything should be quantified in monetary terms, but the thought of "best I can afford" IS about money.
I guess it's hard for m to see it that way because music is so important to me. I suppose if it were about something I didn't have a lot of care for then I could agree.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2240064 - 03/02/14 11:47 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Morodiene]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1267
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
I guess it's hard for m to see it that way because music is so important to me. I suppose if it were about something I didn't have a lot of care for then I could agree.

Jimmy-wise, I'd say that comment has high rustle potential...

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