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#2240080 - 03/02/14 12:16 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
@lolatu, it's a bit of a straw man argument to criticize buying a piano that's not the best for a given budget or to say one shouldn't spend more than one can reasonably afford. I haven't heard anyone advocate those. Everyone has an amount they can reasonably spend on a piano given their financial situation and the importance they expect the piano to play in their life. Within those constraints, they should get the best piano they can, which may not be the most expensive one. When people express tight budget constraints we recommend inexpensive models. When they express disappointment at the performance of models they have tried, we recommend higher quality models, which are typically more expensive. For DP fanatics, we discuss and often purchase the best there is available.

Digital pianos are expensive, but not *that* expensive. And they last a pretty long time. For that reason it makes sense for people to do a lot of research and make sure they get one that will satisfy them. Recommending a medium or low quality piano for someone who has demanding requirements and can afford better would be silly.


Edited by gvfarns (03/02/14 12:19 PM)

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#2240125 - 03/02/14 01:07 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: R_B]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: R_B
I agree with lolatu,
The law of diminishing returns cuts in somewhere around when One's needs/wants/aspirations (and mid term horizons) can be met, beyond that is excess.
Example; I know that I could afford a fairly good Grand, quite possibly a very good one, but my aspirations can be met with what I already have and I still have "room to grow" with it.
I am in no way "instrument limited" in the immediate or mid future.
It is VERY unlikely that I will every be limited by the instrument, which doesn't mean that I don't have ambition for my playing, but I am realistic about these things.

I have other spending opportunities for outlays of that magnitude.
(other opportunities for the space too).

While I'm SURE that a nice grand would REALLY inspire me to practice more and enjoy my playing more, the cost/benefit ratio wouldn't justify it.

I know, I know, not everything should be quantified in monetary terms, but the thought of "best I can afford" IS about money.



These are just generalizations and reflect your own sense of value. There isn't any quantification being done, so I'm not sure how you figure out whether or not one has attributed enough value to "inspiration."

I don't think the rule of thumb should be get the "best one can afford," but I think trying to set some kind of line where everything beyond it is excess is silly.
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
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#2240141 - 03/02/14 01:42 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Morodiene]
Dan Clark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 175
Loc: Bellevue, WA USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Apolgies for any jimmies rustled! I probably phrased it badly.

Many interesting points raised... sorry I don't have time to respond to them all. So I'll just say that I would strongly disagree with the idea that you should spend as much as you can afford, on a DP or anything else for that matter. First, because it's not a useful guideline (what proportion exactly of my savings should I spend? surely not the whole lot?), and second, because it makes far more sense to spend as much as you need to, and not a penny more. Of course, how much you need to spend depends on a lot of factors, including what you're going to use it for (professional, or learning to play Twinkle Twinkle), what you can get for what amount of money etc. If Casio came out with a CA-65 beater for $1000, why should anyone pay more, even if they can afford it? But many people don't even need that level of sophistication, regardless of how much money they have. In short, buying things that are overspecified for your needs is really wasteful. If you still need something to spend the remaining money on, I can offer suggestions!


Firstly, I have no jimmies to rustle.

Secondly, when you pay for a higher-end instrument, you also get better basics: a better sound, a better action. Sure, you get more bells and whistles that you may never need, but a manufacturer has to broaden the market to ensure greater sales. So often there will be overlap between the professional gigging musician, the music teacher, the adult beginner hobbyist, or the amateur advanced pianist.

I had to grow up learning piano on a spinet that had some sentimental value to the family - and that's the only value it had. While most of the keys worked, it could not be tuned because the frame was cracked, many of the low notes were little more than a "clunk", the only way one could coax a legato from the damper pedal was to employ that and the sostenuto pedals simultaneously...the list goes on. Needless to say, practicing was extremely frustrating even as a beginner, and uninspiring. I know that we are talking about something in disrepair and not simply something low-end but in full working order. But any time I could get I would gravitate to a piano and play it until those with me got annoyed and pulled me away - whether it be in a hotel, shopping mall, a stage, whatever. It was always such a pleasure to be able to play something that did what I heard in my head, something that actually responded rather than arm wrestled.

Another anecdote comes from many students over the years who were trying to learn piano on a keyboard or DP that was uninspiring. The transformation that took place in their playing once they upgraded their instrument was night and day - even for beginners who did not have aspirations to become a professional pianist.

From these experiences, I contend that one should get the best instrument they can afford - with the caveat that I had previously stated, without putting themselves in financial trouble. Having the right tool for the job - a piano-shaped object with 88 weighted keys - is just a bare minimum. Some will only be able to scrape up enough funds for that. IF you have the disposable income to get more, then you shouldn't short-change yourself, especially since upgrading will be in the near future thus increasing your overall investment in an instrument.

Morodiene,

Well stated! I agree completely. In fact, I'll go further...

I do have jimmies and they have been rustled. I am a beginner. I'm 67 and started taking lessons again 14 months ago after a 60 year hiatus. And I need a better DP now.

I have a Casio PX-850. Bang for the buck, it's a good beginner piano. Based on what others have posted here, that should be good enough for my needs. Yes? Actually, no!

I take weekly lessons and am fortunate to take them on a good quality grand piano. I've progressed to the point where playing the black keys and 1/8 notes are part of my daily practice. While the Casio was "good enough" when I started, the keyboard is now a hindrance. The short black keys are annoying because of the short pivot length. The feel of the keys on the Casio is decent, but it doesn't have the feel of the grand, like the let up.

When I take lessons, I'm focused on certain musical issues for an hour. But I rarely get to play for enjoyment - it's a lesson. Which is frustrating because I would love to just play for the enjoyment. I had a couple opportunities to play some really magnificent grands - a $90K Sauter and 1904 reconditioned Steinway. The feel and sound of those pianos was nirvana. Almost impossible to describe. And then I have to go back to my Casio.

Whenever I get a chance, I try other DPs to see what the keyboard feels like. Only one brand and model knocked my socks off - Kawai CA65/95. The feel was like no other and very close to the grand that my lessons are on. The first time I tested it, I planned on spending maybe 5 minutes. 30 minutes later I stood up and then only because the salesman was staring at me. IMO, the GF keyboard is the best on any DP. It felt so good that it made me want to continue playing.

So far, this has been about quality and motivation, but there is another factor that makes a quality instrument very important for beginner - figuring out and working through your mistakes. Here's the rub...

Accomplished pianists can create music from most pianos, even mediocre ones. They may not enjoy the experience and can do better on a good quality piano, but they can quickly spot the issues with a poor quality instrument and work around them to some extent. I.e. they know it's the piano and not their technique.

Now consider the beginner's plight... Beginners make mistakes and struggle to overcome them. But after making a mistake on a mediocre piano, how much is caused the student and how much is caused by the instrument? And is the instrument blocking progress in resolving the issue? Yes, it is almost always the student, but how does the the student know that? For example...

While the white keys are OK on my Casio, I find the black keys more difficult to play. But I'm a beginner, so the issue is me. Yes? Probably, but how is that I do better with the black keys on my lesson grand? And why is it that the black keys on the GF key are easier for me to play?

The bottom line is that learning the piano is a struggle for a beginner. A quality instrument with a good keyboard smooths the learning path.

About the price...

Another poster asked, "If Casio came out with a CA-65 beater for $1000, why should anyone pay more, even if they can afford it?" That's a good question and I agree with him. Unfortunately Casio has NOT come out with a CA-65 beater at any price.

IMO, the only CA-65 beater right now is the MP11, primarily because of the GF keyboard, smaller size, and reasonable price. The MP11 meets my requirements even if it's aimed at a different audience.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. A good piano teacher (like mine) is very important for any student. But the teacher is only there for maybe 1-2 hours per week at most. The student's piano is either helping or hindering the student's progress the other 166 hours each week.


Edited by Dan Clark (03/02/14 01:45 PM)

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#2240149 - 03/02/14 01:58 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Dan Clark]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1149
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Dan Clark
The student's piano is either helping or hindering the student's progress the other 166 hours each week.


Maybe, maybe not. I spent 10 years as a kid learning the piano - a spinet. I suspect the action was probably not much better than the short-key Casio. I came to no harm and when I'm confronted with most uprights I can usually get a tune out of them.

Would it be fair to say the GF action is 'flattering' of the pianist? I'm beginning to wonder.

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#2240185 - 03/02/14 02:37 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
StarvingLion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/13
Posts: 226
Haha...I'm learning the chopin etudes (without a teacher) on a $500 digital piano. What do suppose happens when I post the videos showing you don't need those multi-thousand dollar digitals?

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#2240188 - 03/02/14 02:41 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: dire tonic]
Dan Clark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 175
Loc: Bellevue, WA USA
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: Dan Clark
The student's piano is either helping or hindering the student's progress the other 166 hours each week.


Maybe, maybe not. I spent 10 years as a kid learning the piano - a spinet. I suspect the action was probably not much better than the short-key Casio. I came to no harm and when I'm confronted with most uprights I can usually get a tune out of them.

Would it be fair to say the GF action is 'flattering' of the pianist? I'm beginning to wonder.

Flattering? As in ego-flattering? Strange comment. Is flattering an issue for you?

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#2240189 - 03/02/14 02:44 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: StarvingLion]
Dan Clark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 175
Loc: Bellevue, WA USA
Originally Posted By: StarvingLion
Haha...I'm learning the chopin etudes (without a teacher) on a $500 digital piano. What do suppose happens when I post the videos showing you don't need those multi-thousand dollar digitals?

It's your choice to buy what you want. I certainly won't comment on how well your choice works for you.

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#2240194 - 03/02/14 02:58 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: StarvingLion]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1564
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: StarvingLion
Haha...I'm learning the chopin etudes (without a teacher) on a $500 digital piano. What do suppose happens when I post the videos showing you don't need those multi-thousand dollar digitals?


I'm agog.

(although it's already been done - member of this forum a few months back played some brilliant piano on a P105....of course you don't need a top end instrument - you need musicality and effort. But I think everyone already knows that. Of course a better piano will be more enjoyable to play and probably last longer)
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2240195 - 03/02/14 03:01 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Dan Clark]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1149
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Dan Clark
Flattering? As in ego-flattering?

No. In much the same way as a photo might be described as flattering. It has nothing to do with ego.


Quote:
Is flattering an issue for you?

It's either given or received. How can it be an issue?

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#2240222 - 03/02/14 03:40 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: dire tonic]
Dan Clark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 175
Loc: Bellevue, WA USA
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: Dan Clark
Flattering? As in ego-flattering?

No. In much the same way as a photo might be described as flattering. It has nothing to do with ego.


Quote:
Is flattering an issue for you?

It's either given or received. How can it be an issue?

I still don't understand the comment. A piano is just a tool. It isn't flattering.

Some people buy a grand piano because they think it makes them look good. I.e. prosperous and having good taste. My first question to them is always: do you play? If I sense they bought it to improve their image, my immediate reaction is, "Ostentatious schmuck!"

But we're talking about the MP11 here - an industrial-strength tool that looks industrial strength. Other than a couple of pieces of wood on the ends, it just looks purposeful. No one in their right mind would buy it just for the looks or to be flattering.

I'm considering the MP11 primarily for the GF keyboard. If Kawai came out with a lower cost model that had the GF keyboard but with less features, I'd buy that. A VPC2 with the GF keyboard would be perfect for me.

Dan.

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#2240235 - 03/02/14 03:56 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Dan Clark]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1564
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: Dan Clark

I still don't understand the comment. A piano is just a tool. It isn't flattering.


A piano which, through its action or sound, makes you sound better than you are on the next piano could be described as flattering. It's like some music is more flattering than others: Chopin studies with lots of fast arpeggios are flattering (they can make you sound better than you really are to an uneducated audience) whereas most Beethoven Sonatas are the opposite: you have to work like the devil himself to get some of the most pedestrian sounding effects.

Some people buy a grand piano because they think it makes them look good. I.e. prosperous and having good taste. My first question to them is always: do you play? If I sense they bought it to improve their image, my immediate reaction is, "Ostentatious schmuck!"

This is an entirely different order of vanity and silliness, and nothing at all to do with the way the idea of flattery was used before.


Edited by toddy (03/02/14 03:57 PM)
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2240240 - 03/02/14 03:59 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3019
Loc: Oregon
Dan, by "flattering", dire tonic is simply saying that the action is so good, it can make the player appear better than he/she really is. Sometimes DPs do seem to be more "forgiving" of the pianist than real acoustics, allowing them to gloss over poor articulation/technique without paying the same sonic penalty that an acoustic would exact.

Edit: sorry toddy, you beat me to it.


Edited by voxpops (03/02/14 04:00 PM)
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
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#2240244 - 03/02/14 04:09 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1149
Loc: uk south
as toddy & voxpops have it, that's the gist, Dan.

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#2240264 - 03/02/14 04:33 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: dire tonic]
Dan Clark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 175
Loc: Bellevue, WA USA
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
as toddy & voxpops have it, that's the gist, Dan.

dire tonic,

OK. My apologies. I took it the wrong way.

However, I still don't understand the comment in the context of the GF keyboard. If we we were discussing lesser quality DP keyboards, I could understand the issue. However... Since the GF keyboard is supposed to be very close to an acoustic keyboard, how could the GF keyboard gloss over bad technique? Shouldn't it expose bad technique the same as an acoustic keyboard?

Dan.

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#2240269 - 03/02/14 04:41 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
minstrelman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/07
Posts: 241
Loc: buffalo
flattery will get you everywhere. hmmmmmmmmmmm.......lol

I played a bunch of dp's before I bought the CA65.

the one that felt the most like it could earn some flattery for me, was the CA65.
I actually felt/heard..... vividly imagined myself out doing gigs on it..........I sang and played my heart out on it.
I had a big songbook with me.
I played and sang songs with great gusto and verve and vim and vigor, that I had not done in years.
by the time I got done, there was no question in my mind. I must have one. I really liked it that much.
I have played instruments that were not as easy to play.
this instrument sincerely helped to bring my level of play up.
it is easier to play notes higher on the keys.
the action feels good.
is it perfect? um, no.
did it cost as much as the Steinway Concert D Grand at the music store, that I dream about. also, no.
do I ever have second thoughts, or wish I had waited and tried other dp's?
heck, yeah.
now that I read more, I really wish I had tried an Avant Grand. at least tried one.
but the one I got is great. it'll do just fine for now. indeed maybe for the rest of my life.
and maybe someday, somehow, someway, someone will actually flatter me about how good I sound on it. lol
(not gonna hold my breath on that one though. hahahhaha)

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#2240275 - 03/02/14 04:50 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3019
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Dan Clark
how could the GF keyboard gloss over bad technique? Shouldn't it expose bad technique the same as an acoustic keyboard?

Seems like a reasonable supposition. However, I think a lot has to do with the interaction of the keys with the sound engine. My FP-7F had an action that was a delight to play, and seemed - in conjunction with the very responsive SN sound engine - to allow me to play more fluently than previously. However, transferring that to a real acoustic left me struggling a little. It was much harder to play one particular Yamaha grand, due to the much heavier action, and apparently more limited dynamics. Go figure!
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

https://soundcloud.com/richards-recordings/sets/strange-charm-waiting-for-the/s-ppGuy

"can hardly wait to hear what voxpox has to say..."
[HisKidd, May 2014]

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#2240281 - 03/02/14 05:11 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Morodiene]
R_B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 497
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: R_B
I agree with lolatu,
The law of diminishing returns cuts in somewhere around when One's needs/wants/aspirations (and mid term horizons) can be met, beyond that is excess.
Example; I know that I could afford a fairly good Grand, quite possibly a very good one, but my aspirations can be met with what I already have and I still have "room to grow" with it.
I am in no way "instrument limited" in the immediate or mid future.
It is VERY unlikely that I will every be limited by the instrument, which doesn't mean that I don't have ambition for my playing, but I am realistic about these things.

I have other spending opportunities for outlays of that magnitude.
(other opportunities for the space too).

While I'm SURE that a nice grand would REALLY inspire me to practice more and enjoy my playing more, the cost/benefit ratio wouldn't justify it.

I know, I know, not everything should be quantified in monetary terms, but the thought of "best I can afford" IS about money.
I guess it's hard for m to see it that way because music is so important to me. I suppose if it were about something I didn't have a lot of care for then I could agree.


Just a matter of HOW important I guess.
Other things in my life are important too, they compete differently for funds, time and space.
MUSIC is important to me, the INSTRUMENT not so much (within reason, I am not advocating junk).
I can enjoy playing on almost anything, it doesn't need a brand name.

We each have our perspectives and priorities, it would be irrational to expect them to be the same for everyone.

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#2240301 - 03/02/14 05:47 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: minstrelman]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: minstrelman
now that I read more, I really wish I had tried an Avant Grand. at least tried one.


You can still do this. It's not a big deal. Not going to fill you with unmitigated regret that will keep you up at night. The AG has a real grand action, but not a perfect real-grand action. It certainly doesn't play perfectly in my experience and the sound is decidedly normal (not divine). You may like the AG but I think the most likely thing is that after trying it you will be happy with your CA95 plus the thousands of dollars you saved.

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#2240303 - 03/02/14 05:48 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: R_B]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 222
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: R_B
I agree with lolatu,
The law of diminishing returns cuts in somewhere around when One's needs/wants/aspirations (and mid term horizons) can be met, beyond that is excess.
Example; I know that I could afford a fairly good Grand, quite possibly a very good one, but my aspirations can be met with what I already have and I still have "room to grow" with it.
I am in no way "instrument limited" in the immediate or mid future.
It is VERY unlikely that I will every be limited by the instrument, which doesn't mean that I don't have ambition for my playing, but I am realistic about these things.

I have other spending opportunities for outlays of that magnitude.
(other opportunities for the space too).

While I'm SURE that a nice grand would REALLY inspire me to practice more and enjoy my playing more, the cost/benefit ratio wouldn't justify it.

I know, I know, not everything should be quantified in monetary terms, but the thought of "best I can afford" IS about money.


But he wasn't referring to grand pianos which are a world apart in cost and size but stage pianos which may or may not even be more expensive than the nearest equivalent home slab DP or console model.

For me It'll depend on the impression I get when I try the various DPs out, what my budget and goals are. He seems to be completely against home users that aren't professionals getting a stage piano. If a stage piano impresses me the most in a store is more convenient and not a lot more expensive why wouldn't I buy it if I could? In contrast there others here who think that only a grand will do, would turn their noses up at anything digital and that learning on one (no matter the quality) only ingrains bad habits.

@Dan Clarke
I'm a learner and have been noticing the stiffness at the back of the keys on my P-35 more and more as I've been progressing. If I have to stretch my hands at the back it becomes very uncomfortable. I tried the same thing on a Roland HP302 and it was much easier. On the ancient keyboard I used for the first few months this felt impossible. I too know that playing on an amazing instrument can inspire you to get something better for home use.

Speaking of that HP302 (tried in a class) I have to say I found the speakers on it quite strange and unnatural. I didn't get a lot of opportunity to try it but it sounded somewhat boxy. The other model we have there is a Yamaha CLP220 which I really didn't like the sound of although that was more the internal sound I think. I'd have to really like the speakers on a console model to get one and that might mean a model far more expensive and inconvenient than a stage piano.




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#2240354 - 03/02/14 06:58 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: gvfarns]
lolatu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 390
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
@lolatu, it's a bit of a straw man argument to criticize buying a piano that's not the best for a given budget or to say one shouldn't spend more than one can reasonably afford. I haven't heard anyone advocate those.

That's pretty much the opposite to what I was saying! My argument was that they shouldn't spend money that they don't need to, even if they can afford it.

Quote:
Everyone has an amount they can reasonably spend on a piano given their financial situation and the importance they expect the piano to play in their life. Within those constraints, they should get the best piano they can, which may not be the most expensive one.

Here's where we disagree. If someone says they have $2000 to spend, but something with their desired specification is available for $1000, I think we should recommend the $1000 model, rather than a $2000 model which may be "better" overall, but is overspecified for their needs.

Quote:
When people express tight budget constraints we recommend inexpensive models. When they express disappointment at the performance of models they have tried, we recommend higher quality models, which are typically more expensive. For DP fanatics, we discuss and often purchase the best there is available.

Exactly! It should depend on their needs, not the amount of money they have.

Quote:
Digital pianos are expensive, but not *that* expensive. And they last a pretty long time. For that reason it makes sense for people to do a lot of research and make sure they get one that will satisfy them. Recommending a medium or low quality piano for someone who has demanding requirements and can afford better would be silly.

Agree completely. Discerning customers with a lot of money should buy the high spec models, if that's what it takes to make them happy. But I think the mid-spec models are mostly very good, and perfect for the average person.
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Kawai CA95 / Roland FP3 / Pianoteq Stage / Tannoy Reveal Active / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22 / K&M 18810

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#2240365 - 03/02/14 07:18 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Enthusiast]
lolatu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 390
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Enthusiast
But he wasn't referring to grand pianos which are a world apart in cost and size but stage pianos which may or may not even be more expensive than the nearest equivalent home slab DP or console model.

The specifics of what types we're talking about doesn't matter - we were debating the merits of "spending as much as you can afford".

Quote:
For me It'll depend on the impression I get when I try the various DPs out, what my budget and goals are. He seems to be completely against home users that aren't professionals getting a stage piano.

I'm not totally against home users getting professional stage pianos, if that's what suits them best... it's just that stage pianos come with the additional hassles, mainly around monitoring, and in addition to the extra equipment, it's more difficult than you might think to make them actually sound decent. It would certainly be nice if DP makers made their console and slab models' UIs as friendly as their stage pianos, since most of them are pretty terrible. FWIW I think the MP11 looks like an awesome piece of kit, but it's not ideal for everyone.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Roland FP3 / Pianoteq Stage / Tannoy Reveal Active / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22 / K&M 18810

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#2240370 - 03/02/14 07:26 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: gvfarns]
minstrelman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/07
Posts: 241
Loc: buffalo
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: minstrelman
now that I read more, I really wish I had tried an Avant Grand. at least tried one.


You can still do this. It's not a big deal. Not going to fill you with unmitigated regret that will keep you up at night. The AG has a real grand action, but not a perfect real-grand action. It certainly doesn't play perfectly in my experience and the sound is decidedly normal (not divine). You may like the AG but I think the most likely thing is that after trying it you will be happy with your CA95 plus the thousands of dollars you saved.


thank you for that. (by the way, I have a CA65.)
thats really good to know though. I'm so easily led. a gullible green 56 year old. might partially come with the territory, oldest kid in the family, and all that rot.
what I read about the really expensive AG N3 (and N2 and N1), was mouthwatering though, I assure you.
what you say is really cool though. it provides excellent balance.
also, just want to say, I like the idea of "cry once".
if you're really into it, and its worth it to you, and you can swing it (I'm all for fiscal responsibility.......its called living within your means), go for it. get the darn sweetest axe you can justify, taking everything into consideration.

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#2240398 - 03/02/14 08:11 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: lolatu]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 222
Loc: UK
I've only once heard a DP on studio monitors which was in a music tech lesson and was blown away by the sound. By monitor standards they weren't particularly expensive either at around 200 and according to her weren't a problem to setup. I could probably get some help with that if I do go down that route. I can hopefully get a money back guarantee and try a few different ones in the room to compare. They may also be better suited to vst's too rather than internal speakers.

I can understand why stage pianos have more sounds and control options than home oriented slabs but why is it they seem to have the best sounds and actions?

Also how do others who have stage pianos exclusively for home use feel about them and their practicality and ease of use?

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#2240443 - 03/02/14 10:08 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: minstrelman]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11410
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: minstrelman
flattery will get you everywhere. hmmmmmmmmmmm.......lol

I played a bunch of dp's before I bought the CA65.

the one that felt the most like it could earn some flattery for me, was the CA65.
I actually felt/heard..... vividly imagined myself out doing gigs on it..........I sang and played my heart out on it.
I had a big songbook with me.
I played and sang songs with great gusto and verve and vim and vigor, that I had not done in years.
by the time I got done, there was no question in my mind. I must have one. I really liked it that much.
I have played instruments that were not as easy to play.
this instrument sincerely helped to bring my level of play up.
it is easier to play notes higher on the keys.
the action feels good.
is it perfect? um, no.
did it cost as much as the Steinway Concert D Grand at the music store, that I dream about. also, no.
do I ever have second thoughts, or wish I had waited and tried other dp's?
heck, yeah.
now that I read more, I really wish I had tried an Avant Grand. at least tried one.
but the one I got is great. it'll do just fine for now. indeed maybe for the rest of my life.
and maybe someday, somehow, someway, someone will actually flatter me about how good I sound on it. lol
(not gonna hold my breath on that one though. hahahhaha)

I think this is what I mean...it's not that a "lesser" piano will limit you - that is possible - but more that a great instrument will bring you to new levels you never knew you had the ability to achieve.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2240522 - 03/03/14 03:33 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
minstrelman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/07
Posts: 241
Loc: buffalo
I agree with this.
a year ago I played a Steinway Grand at the music store. it was not the first time. but this time, was magical. I was astonished at how good I sounded. it helped to break me out of a very long frustrated rut, of not being happy with my skill level.
I can only speak from my experience. and to do so, I will tell of an analogy that I like. it sorta fits.
in hockey, Wayne Gretzky was so good, that he would bring up the level of play, of everyone else around him.
a good DP can do the same thing.
and everything's relative, it must be said. if I compare my current DP, with the first one I bought 25 years ago. hah!!!! the ones I have now.......this is like being in heaven.

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#2240531 - 03/03/14 04:31 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 53
There is also the notion that someone can be spoiled by playing the best instrument before they have "earned" it. I would say there is definitely some merit in that - you do not want to overindulge yourself and make your soul sick. Then you would be unable to play any lesser model and your spirit would not value the very musical commodity of restraint.

There are two counterpoints that I would make to this. First off is age. If someone is a young'un then I would say you should definitely not spoil yourself early, in any regard. (This does not mean play crap, but perhaps save the absolute best of the best until you feel you deserve it). However, if you are of an age where you are starting to feel that time is running out (to put it bluntly), then this avoidance of overindulgement must surely become secondary to the need to squeeze the tea bag in life and experience all that it has in store.

The second point is a question. Can we really become spoiled by any technology which has so far yet to go? What is the best of the best now will unlikely be the best of the best in 10 years. So you can invest heavily in the absolute best DP now and not be spoiled because there will always be technological advancements which arrive in time for the rewards of your broadened efforts.

It is really up to an individuals circumstances whether or not he/she should get the best piano money can buy.

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#2240534 - 03/03/14 04:48 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: minstrelman]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1149
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: minstrelman
I agree with this.
a year ago I played a Steinway Grand at the music store. it was not the first time. but this time, was magical. I was astonished at how good I sounded. it helped to break me out of a very long frustrated rut, of not being happy with my skill level.

So do you think your skills were flattered or was this the true minstrelman? Is there any risk that you might strive less to conquer a technical difficulty when it's all but masked by a forgiving action, those black notes played near the back of the key being 'good enough'? After all, GF doesn't eliminate the problem, it just makes it a little easier. GF might be the beginner's passport to an easier life.

I had a friend who used to go jogging with weights attached to his legs. Actually, he was a bit of a nutter but I understood the rationale - he was training.

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#2240542 - 03/03/14 05:52 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]
minstrelman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/07
Posts: 241
Loc: buffalo
Rappy, interesting thoughts. I agree very much with some of it. only thing I would add at the moment......(very foggy now, not enough sleep last night, up since 2:15 am......ouch).............is that in my experience, it can be the case, that someone who is not very familiar with keyboard instruments, might not even be able to tell when they are playing an instrument that has a superior action.
most notable for me, is how easy it is to play with control higher up on the white keys.
I can do things on the CA65, that I can't do on other instruments.
the thing has to be taken as a whole as well.
dire tonic, to answer your first question: yes. yes to both.
to the second question, imho definitely not.
I've been dabbling at tickling the ivories for many decades.
people with as little natural talent as me, need all the help we can get.
this is the way I see it. I respect very much, if you see it differently.
I have guitars that are very hard to make certain chords on. I do not have giant super strong hands, nor super coordination.
ease of playability on a guitar, is one of the most important feaures. just like piano. imho.

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#2240543 - 03/03/14 06:01 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: voxpops]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1149
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: voxpops
However, I think a lot has to do with the interaction of the keys with the sound engine. My FP-7F had an action that was a delight to play, and seemed - in conjunction with the very responsive SN sound engine - to allow me to play more fluently than previously.

That's definitely another dimension that plays into instant gratification. Reverb, for example. Do all DPs with on-board sounds fire up their default grand piano with reverb on? An irresistible temptation. And how many piano students will turn it off?

"..I sounded wonderful!, I must have it!.."

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#2240546 - 03/03/14 06:05 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: minstrelman]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1149
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: minstrelman
..people with as little natural talent as me, need all the help we can get.

I don't believe that for a second....although I have been known to just hit the demo button and play air piano in front of nave guests.

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