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We have all heard about playing from the letoff point (actual letoff in case of APs, simulated letoff in case of DPs) One can also play from the 3rd sensor point for DPs that have it. Do DP manufacturers take care to colocate the letoff and 3rd sensor points? If so, is there a necessity at all for a mechanical simulation of the letoff?

I had never thought about let off until it appeared on digitalas, I just knew that key travel DP was smoother than on grands (and urights too). I believe that letoff is associated to finger sensation and third sensor with repetition.
By the way I've read here more than once that a three sensor DP behaves like a grand and a two sensor DP like a upright. I don't agree with, both grands and uprights can repeat can repeat notes without damping, but it is easier on grands.

As far as I can rememember from other threads here, at least one Roland does allow playing from the letoff point, at least one Kawai does NOT, and at least one AvantGrand does NOT.

For APs, there seems little doubt that opinion is divided regards the benefit of the letoff notch feel, because if it were universally accepted that it was beneficial, Steingraeber would not offer the option of roller knuckles. (roller knuckles eliminate or at least reduce the amount of letoff notch feel)

What I haven't seen discussed yet is whether the REASON some people don't actually like Steingraeber's roller knuckles (I have read that not everyone likes them) disappears for digitals. For example, if there is a problem with the jack grabbing on to the roller knuckle when repeating notes, then of course that problem disappears on DPs.

Greg. (speaking as a Google-expert only - not a pianist!)

I'm not sure which terms mean what, but in "Pianism" by Aiko Onishi, she describes this mechanism:

"[Once] the hammer strikes the strings, it comes back to rest on the backcheck before falling back to its original position. When the hammer is resting on the backcheck - this is only for a moment - the key can be played again, which makes playing repeated notes much easier."

The illustration is of the action in a grand piano. Like Marcos, I've also been able to play repeated notes without letoff on uprights. I don't know if that's the same mechanism described above or something different.

On the Yamaha CP4 I don't get the impression of the key catching on anything before I do a restrike without letoff. Some people here who have tested three-sensor boards (can't remember which ones) have noted inconsistencies between key travel on repeated notes. My technique isn't really good enough to test this.

On an acoustic piano you cannot play repeated notes without letoff.
You cannot play even a single note without letoff.

+1 on what MacMacMac said - "letoff" is not the same as "damping". On a grand piano, even though repeats can be performed for shallower key releases, the jack still has to come back underneath the hammer knuckle before a repeat can occur, and that point is referred to as the point of letoff.

Doremi: I forgot to add to my other reply that if a player wants to play from the point of letoff, then having the mechanical notch feel may assist the player to determine that point of letoff - they'll know when to stop pressing down gently on the keys. I've read that the reason players play in this fashion is to allow them to more easily play extremely ppp notes - if the keys are stopped at the point of letoff, they can then be pressed forcefully, but still producing very ppp tones. I wonder whether part of the attraction of this technique may also be to assist with reducing arpeggiation when playing ppp chords. (i.e all keys are lined up with the hammers only a small distance away from the strings). Anyway, if a DP doesn't have this mechanical feedback, it would then be more difficult to know when to stop, so that's a reason for simulating it.

Greg.

Ahhhh... finally the answer!

It looks like I used the wrong term. But it is possible to play repeated notes on a upright, which I guess would be playing "from the letoff point" as described above?

David: "Playing from the letoff point", AFAIK, has nothing to do with repeated notes. It means "press down on the key slowly, until you feel the notch, pause, and then press down FIRMLY, producing a PPP strike". If you do this on an upright, my understanding is that the hammer simply will not hit the strings at all.

I don't think this style of playing is the main reason pianists like the notch feel though.

Greg.

Right, that was (kind of) my understanding of it. At a piano masterclass it was pointed out as such and that you want to become familiar with where this point is in order to achieve pp to ppp. This could explain why it is more difficult to achieve the same on an upright.

It could also be part of the same mechanism that allows for fast repetition?

I think it's more to do with the fact that grand pianos simply have better, more precise actions, that allow the letoff point to occur at a point where the hammers are closer to the strings. I don't think it's related to the double-escapement mechanism per se. In fact the snippet of info about this "playing off the jack" that I found stated that the piano has to be well regulated for this to work, too. Maybe there are some uprights that can do this - I'm not sure.

EDIT: I think I recall reading that one reason a grand can have the letoff point closer to the strings is because the hammers are horizontal, and are working against gravity. In an upright, as soon as the hammer goes past vertical, it will naturally tend to fall towards the strings.

Greg.

Hi,

could you list the models that are known to allow and not allow playing from the letoff point? Or maybe provide links to the mentioned threads?

I was quite interested in Kawai CS7, but the unit I tested a few months back was silent when paying firmly from the letoff point. Next to the dp was a Kawai baby grand and this real piano produced a sound when played from the letoff point. This comparison let me to the conclusion that Kawai CS7's letoff simulation is not correctly implemented, i.e. not acting like a real piano.

Sorry, I can't list specific models at the moment, but here is a mention of the A.G not playing from the letoff point, FWIW.

Greg.