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@lolatu, it's a bit of a straw man argument to criticize buying a piano that's not the best for a given budget or to say one shouldn't spend more than one can reasonably afford. I haven't heard anyone advocate those. Everyone has an amount they can reasonably spend on a piano given their financial situation and the importance they expect the piano to play in their life. Within those constraints, they should get the best piano they can, which may not be the most expensive one. When people express tight budget constraints we recommend inexpensive models. When they express disappointment at the performance of models they have tried, we recommend higher quality models, which are typically more expensive. For DP fanatics, we discuss and often purchase the best there is available.

Digital pianos are expensive, but not *that* expensive. And they last a pretty long time. For that reason it makes sense for people to do a lot of research and make sure they get one that will satisfy them. Recommending a medium or low quality piano for someone who has demanding requirements and can afford better would be silly.

These are just generalizations and reflect your own sense of value. There isn't any quantification being done, so I'm not sure how you figure out whether or not one has attributed enough value to "inspiration."

I don't think the rule of thumb should be get the "best one can afford," but I think trying to set some kind of line where everything beyond it is excess is silly.

Morodiene,

Well stated! I agree completely. In fact, I'll go further...

I do have jimmies and they have been rustled. I am a beginner. I'm 67 and started taking lessons again 14 months ago after a 60 year hiatus. And I need a better DP now.

I have a Casio PX-850. Bang for the buck, it's a good beginner piano. Based on what others have posted here, that should be good enough for my needs. Yes? Actually, no!

I take weekly lessons and am fortunate to take them on a good quality grand piano. I've progressed to the point where playing the black keys and 1/8 notes are part of my daily practice. While the Casio was "good enough" when I started, the keyboard is now a hindrance. The short black keys are annoying because of the short pivot length. The feel of the keys on the Casio is decent, but it doesn't have the feel of the grand, like the let up.

When I take lessons, I'm focused on certain musical issues for an hour. But I rarely get to play for enjoyment - it's a lesson. Which is frustrating because I would love to just play for the enjoyment. I had a couple opportunities to play some really magnificent grands - a $90K Sauter and 1904 reconditioned Steinway. The feel and sound of those pianos was nirvana. Almost impossible to describe. And then I have to go back to my Casio.

Whenever I get a chance, I try other DPs to see what the keyboard feels like. Only one brand and model knocked my socks off - Kawai CA65/95. The feel was like no other and very close to the grand that my lessons are on. The first time I tested it, I planned on spending maybe 5 minutes. 30 minutes later I stood up and then only because the salesman was staring at me. IMO, the GF keyboard is the best on any DP. It felt so good that it made me want to continue playing.

So far, this has been about quality and motivation, but there is another factor that makes a quality instrument very important for beginner - figuring out and working through your mistakes. Here's the rub...

Accomplished pianists can create music from most pianos, even mediocre ones. They may not enjoy the experience and can do better on a good quality piano, but they can quickly spot the issues with a poor quality instrument and work around them to some extent. I.e. they know it's the piano and not their technique.

Now consider the beginner's plight... Beginners make mistakes and struggle to overcome them. But after making a mistake on a mediocre piano, how much is caused the student and how much is caused by the instrument? And is the instrument blocking progress in resolving the issue? Yes, it is almost always the student, but how does the the student know that? For example...

While the white keys are OK on my Casio, I find the black keys more difficult to play. But I'm a beginner, so the issue is me. Yes? Probably, but how is that I do better with the black keys on my lesson grand? And why is it that the black keys on the GF key are easier for me to play?

The bottom line is that learning the piano is a struggle for a beginner. A quality instrument with a good keyboard smooths the learning path.

About the price...

Another poster asked, "If Casio came out with a CA-65 beater for $1000, why should anyone pay more, even if they can afford it?" That's a good question and I agree with him. Unfortunately Casio has NOT come out with a CA-65 beater at any price.

IMO, the only CA-65 beater right now is the MP11, primarily because of the GF keyboard, smaller size, and reasonable price. The MP11 meets my requirements even if it's aimed at a different audience.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. A good piano teacher (like mine) is very important for any student. But the teacher is only there for maybe 1-2 hours per week at most. The student's piano is either helping or hindering the student's progress the other 166 hours each week.

Maybe, maybe not. I spent 10 years as a kid learning the piano - a spinet. I suspect the action was probably not much better than the short-key Casio. I came to no harm and when I'm confronted with most uprights I can usually get a tune out of them.

Would it be fair to say the GF action is 'flattering' of the pianist? I'm beginning to wonder.

Haha...I'm learning the chopin etudes (without a teacher) on a $500 digital piano. What do suppose happens when I post the videos showing you don't need those multi-thousand dollar digitals?

Flattering? As in ego-flattering? Strange comment. Is flattering an issue for you?

It's your choice to buy what you want. I certainly won't comment on how well your choice works for you.

I'm agog.

(although it's already been done - member of this forum a few months back played some brilliant piano on a P105....of course you don't need a top end instrument - you need musicality and effort. But I think everyone already knows that. Of course a better piano will be more enjoyable to play and probably last longer)

No. In much the same way as a photo might be described as flattering. It has nothing to do with ego.



It's either given or received. How can it be an issue?

I still don't understand the comment. A piano is just a tool. It isn't flattering.

Some people buy a grand piano because they think it makes them look good. I.e. prosperous and having good taste. My first question to them is always: do you play? If I sense they bought it to improve their image, my immediate reaction is, "Ostentatious schmuck!"

But we're talking about the MP11 here - an industrial-strength tool that looks industrial strength. Other than a couple of pieces of wood on the ends, it just looks purposeful. No one in their right mind would buy it just for the looks or to be flattering.

I'm considering the MP11 primarily for the GF keyboard. If Kawai came out with a lower cost model that had the GF keyboard but with less features, I'd buy that. A VPC2 with the GF keyboard would be perfect for me.

Dan.

A piano which, through its action or sound, makes you sound better than you are on the next piano could be described as flattering. It's like some music is more flattering than others: Chopin studies with lots of fast arpeggios are flattering (they can make you sound better than you really are to an uneducated audience) whereas most Beethoven Sonatas are the opposite: you have to work like the devil himself to get some of the most pedestrian sounding effects.

Some people buy a grand piano because they think it makes them look good. I.e. prosperous and having good taste. My first question to them is always: do you play? If I sense they bought it to improve their image, my immediate reaction is, "Ostentatious schmuck!"

This is an entirely different order of vanity and silliness, and nothing at all to do with the way the idea of flattery was used before.

Dan, by "flattering", dire tonic is simply saying that the action is so good, it can make the player appear better than he/she really is. Sometimes DPs do seem to be more "forgiving" of the pianist than real acoustics, allowing them to gloss over poor articulation/technique without paying the same sonic penalty that an acoustic would exact.

Edit: sorry toddy, you beat me to it.

as toddy & voxpops have it, that's the gist, Dan.

dire tonic,

OK. My apologies. I took it the wrong way.

However, I still don't understand the comment in the context of the GF keyboard. If we we were discussing lesser quality DP keyboards, I could understand the issue. However... Since the GF keyboard is supposed to be very close to an acoustic keyboard, how could the GF keyboard gloss over bad technique? Shouldn't it expose bad technique the same as an acoustic keyboard?

Dan.

flattery will get you everywhere. hmmmmmmmmmmm.......lol

I played a bunch of dp's before I bought the CA65.

the one that felt the most like it could earn some flattery for me, was the CA65.
I actually felt/heard..... vividly imagined myself out doing gigs on it..........I sang and played my heart out on it.
I had a big songbook with me.
I played and sang songs with great gusto and verve and vim and vigor, that I had not done in years.
by the time I got done, there was no question in my mind. I must have one. I really liked it that much.
I have played instruments that were not as easy to play.
this instrument sincerely helped to bring my level of play up.
it is easier to play notes higher on the keys.
the action feels good.
is it perfect? um, no.
did it cost as much as the Steinway Concert D Grand at the music store, that I dream about. also, no.
do I ever have second thoughts, or wish I had waited and tried other dp's?
heck, yeah.
now that I read more, I really wish I had tried an Avant Grand. at least tried one.
but the one I got is great. it'll do just fine for now. indeed maybe for the rest of my life.
and maybe someday, somehow, someway, someone will actually flatter me about how good I sound on it. lol
(not gonna hold my breath on that one though. hahahhaha)

Seems like a reasonable supposition. However, I think a lot has to do with the interaction of the keys with the sound engine. My FP-7F had an action that was a delight to play, and seemed - in conjunction with the very responsive SN sound engine - to allow me to play more fluently than previously. However, transferring that to a real acoustic left me struggling a little. It was much harder to play one particular Yamaha grand, due to the much heavier action, and apparently more limited dynamics. Go figure!

Just a matter of HOW important I guess.
Other things in my life are important too, they compete differently for funds, time and space.
MUSIC is important to me, the INSTRUMENT not so much (within reason, I am not advocating junk).
I can enjoy playing on almost anything, it doesn't need a brand name.

We each have our perspectives and priorities, it would be irrational to expect them to be the same for everyone.

You can still do this. It's not a big deal. Not going to fill you with unmitigated regret that will keep you up at night. The AG has a real grand action, but not a perfect real-grand action. It certainly doesn't play perfectly in my experience and the sound is decidedly normal (not divine). You may like the AG but I think the most likely thing is that after trying it you will be happy with your CA95 plus the thousands of dollars you saved.

But he wasn't referring to grand pianos which are a world apart in cost and size but stage pianos which may or may not even be more expensive than the nearest equivalent home slab DP or console model.

For me It'll depend on the impression I get when I try the various DPs out, what my budget and goals are. He seems to be completely against home users that aren't professionals getting a stage piano. If a stage piano impresses me the most in a store is more convenient and not a lot more expensive why wouldn't I buy it if I could? In contrast there others here who think that only a grand will do, would turn their noses up at anything digital and that learning on one (no matter the quality) only ingrains bad habits.

@Dan Clarke
I'm a learner and have been noticing the stiffness at the back of the keys on my P-35 more and more as I've been progressing. If I have to stretch my hands at the back it becomes very uncomfortable. I tried the same thing on a Roland HP302 and it was much easier. On the ancient keyboard I used for the first few months this felt impossible. I too know that playing on an amazing instrument can inspire you to get something better for home use.

Speaking of that HP302 (tried in a class) I have to say I found the speakers on it quite strange and unnatural. I didn't get a lot of opportunity to try it but it sounded somewhat boxy. The other model we have there is a Yamaha CLP220 which I really didn't like the sound of although that was more the internal sound I think. I'd have to really like the speakers on a console model to get one and that might mean a model far more expensive and inconvenient than a stage piano.

That's pretty much the opposite to what I was saying! My argument was that they shouldn't spend money that they don't need to, even if they can afford it.


Here's where we disagree. If someone says they have $2000 to spend, but something with their desired specification is available for $1000, I think we should recommend the $1000 model, rather than a $2000 model which may be "better" overall, but is overspecified for their needs.


Exactly! It should depend on their needs, not the amount of money they have.


Agree completely. Discerning customers with a lot of money should buy the high spec models, if that's what it takes to make them happy. But I think the mid-spec models are mostly very good, and perfect for the average person.