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#2240885 - 03/03/14 07:07 PM Pin and string setting - tests
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
I am practicing tuning stability. Right now it is more or less trial and error and I only know after a few days or weeks if stability was not good enough when the unions begin to sound unfocused and thick.

Are there more systematic ways of practicing pin and string setting and more immediate ways of testing whether I am moving in the right direction?

I give the key a number of hard blows, but even if pitch remains stable after this (I use TuneLab so I can verify stability quite precisely), one note can still have stable unions for a long time while another note gets slightly unpure after a few days or weeks, and without me being able to tell what I did differently.

I know a lot of practice helps. But there must be some immediate feedback to guide the progress?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2240996 - 03/03/14 11:17 PM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2193
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Pinkfloydhomer,
Every time I tune a piano I am still practicing tuning stability. Was today tuning 193BP Boston. Very unfriendly to tune. I could not feel readily the perfect place for any pin. I just worked up and down and back and forth across the compass until they all fit together and seem to have stopped drifting. It took three hours as the piano was flat.

The teacher promised to tune it twice a year from now on which will help. She let it go a year and a half before I came.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2241007 - 03/03/14 11:46 PM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
I am practicing tuning stability. Right now it is more or less trial and error and I only know after a few days or weeks if stability was not good enough when the unions begin to sound unfocused and thick.

Are there more systematic ways of practicing pin and string setting and more immediate ways of testing whether I am moving in the right direction?

I give the key a number of hard blows, but even if pitch remains stable after this (I use TuneLab so I can verify stability quite precisely), one note can still have stable unions for a long time while another note gets slightly unpure after a few days or weeks, and without me being able to tell what I did differently.

I know a lot of practice helps. But there must be some immediate feedback to guide the progress?

Try this method. May be it's help your skill in tuning of a piano
http://youtu.be/WZ2SxSG90U0
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2241143 - 03/04/14 08:49 AM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1396
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
If it's stable after hard blows, how is it possible that it drifts after?

Non Speaking Length.
The soundboard moves and the short NSL pulls the string across the v-bar, while the long NSL doesn't.

Strings rubbing on pins.

Poorly fitted pinblock on grands.

Pinblock separation on uprights.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2241193 - 03/04/14 10:29 AM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
If it's stable after hard blows, how is it possible that it drifts after?


I don't know, you tell me laugh

Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT

Non Speaking Length.
The soundboard moves and the short NSL pulls the string across the v-bar, while the long NSL doesn't.

Strings rubbing on pins.

Poorly fitted pinblock on grands.

Pinblock separation on uprights.


It might be those things, I don't know. I don't know how to test for it?

But I was thinking in more mundane terms: The string tension might be equalized by my hard test blows, but the pin can still be twisted or otherwise not in equilibrium, right? Hard test blows won't instantly make the pin turn as much as it will over days or weeks, right?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2241520 - 03/04/14 09:30 PM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
Anyone? Isn't it true that the pin could be twisted or bent in a way that would not equalize just with a couple of hard test blows but over weeks?

And if so, is there a way to test for that more immediately so that I can improve my stability?
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2241528 - 03/04/14 09:47 PM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1207
Loc: Québec, Canada
Wiggle your lever on the pin.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2241589 - 03/04/14 11:57 PM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1396
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
The string tension might be equalized by my hard test blows, but the pin can still be twisted or otherwise not in equilibrium, right? Hard test blows won't instantly make the pin turn as much as it will over days or weeks, right?


That is a very astute observation. Isaac Oleg and I have discussed this very thing and I am in the process of incorporating this into my model of elastic deformation.

There is one technique that may reduce this problem.

While it may be true (I am still skeptical) that the pin itself takes time to completely return to its previously deformed state, under the tension of the Non-Speaking Length (NSL), the tuner can use this to create more stability in their tunings.

When considering the hard and heavy playing that some concert pianists use, it behooves the tuner to leave slightly higher tension in the NSL in order to help overcome the increased tension induced in the Speaking Length (SL) due to the heavy playing.

Assuming the pin will slowly return to a previously deformed stable condition, one can simply decide to use a top down (flattening) approach as the final pin movement, and better yet, with the hammer at 9:00 (upright) or 3:00 (grand).

In both these cases, the unbending and untwisting of the pin after you are done tuning, (I call the After Tuning) will cause the NSL tension to increase. The problem is, will it be enough to take up the "slack" induced in the NSL by going flat in the first place?

Because of the way the pin movement affects NSL tension on long NSL's, and how the induced deformation is affected by the tightness off the pinblock, this After Tuning will be least on pianos with long NSL and soft pinblocks.

For these pianos, you will need to find a way to create more After Tuning. Or use a "move, massage, move, massage" technique.

It's impossible to explain all the possible ways to deal with a particular piano, especially without seeing, hearing, or feeling it, but I hope this gives you an idea of what forces are at work here.

Take a look at the NSL of the drifting strings. I think you will see that they are some of the shortest, and hence, more sensitive to pin movement. Have you watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7NFEFBaVvY ?

If they are, this is evidence that the pin is taking time to return to its stable position.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2241595 - 03/05/14 12:12 AM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2193
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
A tuning pin can be set with a strong amount of bias to creep sharp over 20 minutes or so. It can happen when you "overpull" a little too much and keep nudging and socking the pin/string down to the correct pitch. Then because the pin has been left slightly "twisted" flat, it will spring back up one or two cents sharp, with unison still all together.

I know this because it is a tendency I have that comes from tuning so many pianos with new strings that always want to fall flat, that I can end up with a whole section of notes that creep sharp.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2241608 - 03/05/14 12:42 AM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1396
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Nice Ed. Do you notice a more or less effect depending on NSL?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2241644 - 03/05/14 12:49 PM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7894
Loc: France
the main thing is to be sure that the pin is hold in place by the string, that is what most may call "balance".

the strength of the wire apply more or less deep within the hole of the pinblock, and the way the pin is installed make use of that torque more or less efficiently.

Due to the strength of the string and the one of the pin, those 2 elements are not to be neglected.

Hold a pin in a vice and feel its resistance with a tuning lever to understand what level is expected (a T level may be better). it is relatively small when perceived at the end of the lever, and the deformation of the pin is minimal, but it is visibly enough to create a more or less long lasting setting, when the tuning is managed till the very extreme part of the pin to the bottom of the coil the tuner have really more control on the firmness of the setup.


About immediate deformation of the pin when slowly twisted and the time it takes to settle back, I am not sure but it is possible that the metal once bend/twisted, tend to react during the next minutes.

Of course leaving the pin too much "twisted" will create a raise in pitch later, if the block is strong enough to hold the pin tight.
wiggling allows to be sure of the level of resistance the pin have against the string . I usually expect the pitch to stay the same, with an easier move up than low (in fact I often expect zero possibility to lower the pitch but it can be too much on some pianos)

On a vertical, building unisons from the left string to the right by tuning "open" couples of strings, may possibly fight the future tendency relative to the shortest NSL on the right string. anyway that is a common way to tune when the unisons are tuned with 3 strings sounding at the same time.

wiggling allows also to fine tune, or correct unisons, yet the specific sensitivity of the piano tuner is necessary and expected. when you wiggle you feel if the pin is unstable, but you can also make very small modifications tone wise, based on how you perceive the pin and how the tone reacts.

tune the pin, more than the string wink
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2241645 - 03/05/14 12:52 PM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7894
Loc: France
Also, the elasticity we perceive comes more from the block than from the pin, generally, but that does not mean some is not present within the pin. (even on Yamahas with their "softer" tuning pins, the pin's elasticity can be build up.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2241681 - 03/05/14 01:48 PM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
pinkfloydhomer Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 290
I will try to learn from all the comments in this thread.

It's not that the piano goes very much out of tune. But the tuning of each string drifts enough to affect the unisons enough to affect the tone of the piano after a few weeks. And I have a feeling that it wouldn't happen if either of you pros tuned the piano instead of just me smile

On the other hand, the same thing has happened (maybe after a little longer) when two different real tuners tuned the piano. So maybe the piano is just hard to get stable. It _is_ a cheap piano.
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2241735 - 03/05/14 03:07 PM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7894
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano,


Take a look at the NSL of the drifting strings. I think you will see that they are some of the shortest, and hence, more sensitive to pin movement. Have you watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7NFEFBaVvY ?

If they are, this is evidence that the pin is taking time to return to its stable position.



Hello Mark, I looked at your funny and cool video.

I would say that my goal when tuning is not to do some final tuning by massaging, it happens, but I primarly try to have the pin "landing" in its best posture while the NSL is also in its good tension.

Small adjustments on unisons happen, and possibly they help to have a better relation pin/NSL, but the margin is so small, really most often I need to move the feet of the pin.

WHat I mean is that on a given piano, I am used to the elasticity sensation that correspond to the final stable condition, so when I am moving a hair the bottom of the pin, I make a sort of tactile substraction between the resistance I feel to move the pin, and the one that must be there at the end.

Sure there may be some guessing, as I move the bottom of the pin without any audible information in that case. That is why I try to tune "directly" whenever possible.

Test blows relatively useless, and rarely used, in fact.
But with time I developped a knowledge of the rigidity I perceive, the one of the NSL and the one of the pin. The ear is just there to say when the wire begin to move one or the other direction.

It may be certainly very useful to beginners tuners to use strong ear plugs and focus more on their sensations than on their listening.

ALso, when the wire and pin where just manipulated, the friction at the capo/agrafe, underfelt, is at its lower (particularely during the raising motion)

It is the good moment to evaluate the amount of give allowed by the tuning pin , bowing it both directions, that is the most useful method to know how is the tension difference and how is the friction at its lowest on the bearing point (the one that will allow the tension to pass thru with strong playing)

Once the piano have played, bowing the pin generally does not create an audible tone difference, while when the note is just tuned it is easier to test by bending the pin, what amount of raise can happen and bending the other way, if the pitch lowers or no. It the string raise too easily there is too much left in the NSL.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2242131 - 03/06/14 10:01 AM Re: Pin and string setting - tests [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Hold a pin in a vice and feel its resistance with a tuning lever to understand what level is expected (a T level may be better). it is relatively small when perceived at the end of the lever, and the deformation of the pin is minimal, but it is visibly enough to create a more or less long lasting setting, when the tuning is managed till the very extreme part of the pin to the bottom of the coil the tuner have really more control on the firmness of the setup.

should be concentrated uniform application of force for each hand, using the T-bar, I think so
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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