Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Yamaha CP4 Rebate
Yamaha CP4 Rebate
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
140 registered (36251, albumblatter, Abby Pianoman, anamnesis, AlexanderLee, 45 invisible), 1399 Guests and 14 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2240979 - 03/03/14 10:16 PM harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 842
Loc: New York City
I started on this and was surprised by all the interesting 7th chords. I would not have expected to find major seventh chords and half diminished 7th chords in this, but they're there.

I'll post when I'm finished.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

Top
Piano & Music Acc. / Sheet Music


Sheet Music Plus Homepage
#2240989 - 03/03/14 10:53 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Hrodulf]
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5032
Loc: USA
1) How does this belong at the Composer's Lounge?

2) We can look at the score ourselves, you know.

Top
#2241000 - 03/03/14 11:24 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Hrodulf]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5638
Loc: Europe
Joel,

Way to go on being nice!

1. Analysis is one of the most major tools in learning composition. So why on earth not?

2. Yes you can, as you could, for example, take a look at the manuals for certain software, instead of posting a string of questions one after the other... :P
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2241004 - 03/03/14 11:41 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Hrodulf]
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5032
Loc: USA
You pinned me.

Top
#2241006 - 03/03/14 11:45 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8113
Loc: New York City
I think this post is quite appropriate.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2241260 - 03/04/14 12:49 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Polyphonist]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 842
Loc: New York City
I finished it but I wrote it in my edition. I want to xerox it, rewrite the chords on a xerox copy so they're easier to read, and then upload that. Here are in my mind the highlights:

Bach, in the first four measures, gives us the tonic, an f# half diminished seventh, a B dominant seventh, and the tonic. However, he uses a chord progression leading to the relative major (G) later in the piece, but which immediately proceeds to a IV V I cadence back to e minor, so the G, which we thought was the destination, was just a stop on a III IV V I cadence. But it gets even weirder, because the tonic wasn't the destination either, Bach then goes on to a IV V I to C major, meaning the e minor was not a destination, but part of a new III IV V I cadence. There are also a large number of diminished chords in this piece.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

Top
#2241778 - 03/05/14 04:27 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 842
Loc: New York City
I copied it over will upload tomorrow. I don't have access to a scanner today.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

Top
#2242232 - 03/06/14 01:43 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 842
Loc: New York City
Here it is:



_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

Top
#2243452 - 03/09/14 04:33 AM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Hrodulf]
larryz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/11
Posts: 126
Loc: sweden
I think the third measure should be a diminished vii chord, (Ddim7 in your jazz-notation?).
I wonder if the second measure couldn't be seen as a iv with an added sixth rather than a ii7 ?
cheers,

Top
#2243561 - 03/09/14 12:00 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: larryz]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 842
Loc: New York City
Thanks I will look.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

Top
#2243568 - 03/09/14 12:23 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Hrodulf]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 822
Loc: Leicester, UK


With Bach voice leading and counterpoint count for a lot. That can be a problem for jazz chord symbols. Because they're not really meant to show voice leading.

If you reduce the 1st 4 measures the chords can look like the example above

So the 2nd measure could be F#m7b5 (inverted). Or it could be a 2nd inversion iv w/the F# on top as a passing tone. Either way it should be notated with extra figured bass symbols to indicate the inversion.

4
2

under the E would show F#m7b5 w/E in the bass.

6
4

Under the E would show Am with E in the bass (2nd inversion).


If you look at m2 as a iv chord with E in the bass the F# and the fast ornamental stuff that follows are passing stuff that connect the E (in the 1st measure) and G (in the 4th measure).

The other thing you might notice is how that E drops to D# in the bass and returns to E. And the B (in the tenor) goes up to C.

Playing any of these 4 voices in the example on its own can be helpful. And then compare the simplified voices what you hear in Bach's "full" version.

Hope this helps!



Edited by Mark Polishook (03/09/14 02:28 PM)
_________________________
PolishookPiano

mark@polishookpiano.com

Top
#2243660 - 03/09/14 02:22 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Mark Polishook]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 842
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook


With Bach voice leading and counterpoint count for a lot. That can be a problem for jazz chord symbols. Because they're not really meant to show voice leading.

If you reduce the 1st 4 measures the chords can look like the example above

So the 2nd measure could be F#m7b5 (inverted). Or it could be a 2nd inversion iv w/the F# on top as a passing tone. It's should be notated with extra figured bass symbols to indicate the inversion (but my computer can't do that ...)

If you look at m2 as a iv chord with E in the bass the F# and the fast ornamental stuff that follows are passing stuff that connect the E (in the 1st measure) and G (in the 4th measure).

The other thing you might notice is how that E drops to D# in the bass and returns to E. And the B (in the tenor) goes up to C.

Playing any of these 4 voices in the example on its own can be helpful. And then compare the simplified voices what you hear in Bach's "full" version.

Hope this helps!



I guess some of the chords are ambiguous then. I'll have to redo this. Thanks for the help.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

Top
#2243666 - 03/09/14 02:34 PM Re: harmonic analysis of bach wtc book 1 prelude 10 [Re: Hrodulf]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 822
Loc: Leicester, UK
Yes. Some can seem ambiguous. It comes down to knowing in the style how to recognise the chords used for points of departure or arrival and then which chords were used in between the departures and arrivals.
_________________________
PolishookPiano

mark@polishookpiano.com

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
circle of 5ths coaster
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Hal Leonard Teacher VIP
Hal Leonard Teacher VIP Your Source for Piano Music
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Sohmer Upright piano model 34A
by dbf
13 minutes 8 seconds ago
A long over due update...
by Les Koltvedt
33 minutes 33 seconds ago
Piano Movers Tightened a Leg Bolt too Tightly
by pianoman9
Today at 08:17 PM
descending thirds with right hand
by pianu_reeves
Today at 06:40 PM
Best way to control a PC virtual piano from Yamaha CLP-585?
by eclectic
Today at 06:31 PM
What's Hot!!
Trade Regrets: Gary Trafton - Piano Rep
--------------------
Historic Piano Documents
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Forum Stats
78,726 Registered Members
43 Forums
162,894 Topics
2,390,904 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission