Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Digital Keyboard + Sore hands/arms

Hey all,

A year ago I purchased the the Roland FP-7 model - this is my primary practice keyboard which I use for practice about an hour/day typically (or more, but never longer than a 1 hour period). In the past 2 weeks I've been noticing unspecific hand and forearm discomfort after playing the keyboard for 20 minutes +.
However, playing my piano teachers Yamaha grand, and my own acoustic upright I've noticed either absolutely no pain, or only discomfort after playing for a long period. So essentially, it seems the digital keyboard I am most sensitive too, while an acoustic instrument gives me almost no discomfort.

Is this a common issue? I don't understand if it would be my own playing or the digital keyboard (and then that in conjunction with some bad habit perhaps). And I don't get why I am only experiencing this now after having this instrument for over a year. Any help would be appreciated.

I have owned an FP-7 for many years, but only up until this past summer was it the only instrument I had to practice on. From this experience I developed a lot of tension in my playing, and I think it was because I was subconsciously bracing myself for the harsh bottoming out in the keybed of the Roland. When I returned to playing my acoustic grand after the summer I was able to work out the problems within a week or so, so I am positive it was the FP-7. Now I have to be conscious of my playing that I don't react that way in the future.

For this reason I have upgraded to the Kawai MP11 and am ecstatic with the results. Also, the Kawai VPC1 I had owned for a brief period of time was excellent - both so much better than the feel of the FP-7. Even my parent's Yamaha clavinova was better feeling. I think you should look into getting something else - I highly recommend Kawai. What is your budget?

First, try measuring your relative seat height compared to the acoustic . . . .mine was out by less than an inch; it made a big difference. My hands were too high and it affected my lower back since the music and keys were correspondingly lower. The average music stand on a (slab) digital is a health and safety disaster . . . that might also cause problems which translate to your hands. Just a long shot, but who knows?

forearm discomfort ... ?

Top forearm muscles?

Anytime anyone has pain, discomfort, tension, whatever, in their top forearm muscles, you can be sure they are playing using the wrong set of muscles.

Hmm so it's not just me - What do you mean by "bottoming out" though?

I can definitely feel there's something not meshing with myself and the Roland atm, but it sucks because it was almost $2000 and my dad bought it for me as a gift, and I dunno how he'd react to me complaining that after a year it's not working out lol. My budget would be around the $2000 area. I send half my time in my apartment downtown and half at my parents house uptown (of which we are currently looking into buying a grand for). So the purpose of the digital is something smaller that I can practice on during the few days during the week I am downtown.

"Dad, I'm going to need to trade the keyboard you bought me in. It's causing me some pain". Honesty is better than suffering through playing.

http://rsi.unl.edu/music.html

Are you playing your DP at too low a volume, and therefore compensating by hitting the keys much harder than you would when playing an acoustic?

I see this 'problem' frequently when I watch others playing in DP stores - they bang because they can. If they played like that on acoustics, they'd deafen themselves and everyone near them.

You should always play your DP at the same volume for the same key strike as on acoustics.

There's a couple of possibilities that come to mind:

1. What is the height of the digital piano compared to you, relative to when you're on an acoustic? Ideally you should measure the key height from the floor as well as the seat height for both instruments, and see if they differ. You might have tension from playing the digital at a different height relative to your body.

2. Bennevis already mentioned the volume thing. That's the other thing that I'd consider. I don't know how well the Roland plays, especially if its velocity curve (i.e. how fast you press the key -> how loud the sound is) is close to an acoustic, but you may be doing something different to try to get the same sound out that you'd expect from an acoustic, such as by playing the keys harder.

3. Also, what is your practice routine? I've found that since buying a digital piano, my practice routine is fairly sloppy nowadays. Previously, I'd have to go to the practice rooms at school, sit through the waiting list, and then have a maximum of 2 hours to practice. This meant that I had a more structured or orderly schedule -- some warmups, some of my easier pieces, then harder pieces once I'm fully warmed up. Nowadays, with the digital piano at home, I tend to plunk out notes for brief stretches, whenever it strikes my fancy. It's more convenient this way, but I find that I tend to skip the "boring" warmups and such and start tackling the harder pieces without really warming up, and then my fingers will feel sore afterwards. So I don't know if you're doing something different on your digital compared with acoustic.

On the other hand, unless your digital piano's action is like an acoustic's, it's entirely possible that it has something to do with the digital piano. But then there's too many possibilities so I think it'd be hard to pin down.

Are your hands big?
If keys have a short fulcrum, the response from the front to the back of the key is very uneven, playing as close to the front of keys as possible could help (specially true for black keys and big hands).

If you search back through you will find that the Roland PHAIII action is not recommended for people with wrist, hand, finger problems, by people who have used it. Possibly the same applies to the FP7 and PHAII? The supposed cause is hard bottoming out, push back from the keys, and shape and height of the keys.

Surely any acoustic piano has a hard bottoming out?

As mentioned, I would also start by measuring all heights. Even if it feels like they are the same, a small amount can make a difference.
Remember to factor in the chair, if you have different ones and one is for example harder than the other (which can make a height difference). If you can, try with the same chair to rule that out.

I would also use my phone to record (from the side) a snippet of me playing the same piece on both pianos and see if there are any noticeable differences that I might not pick up consciously.

If everything seems to fail, looking at a replacement is probably the best option. Since you've practiced a long time on it you might simply have reached a point where any shortcomings or "incompatibilities" in the keybed are taking their toll.

Is this a joke?

Of course it's all relative what we mean by hard bottoming out, but relatively the PHAIII is the worse. Try it for yourself and compare with others.

I don't see why an acoustic would claim to be hard too. The hammer action escapes from the key so its stop is not felt, and the felts below the key and length of key provide the cushion. On PHAIII there is felt too below the key, but also the hammer stops without escaping the key by hitting felt, and that is felt by the fingers on the key. Hard felt, and obviously not thick enough as recognised in their marketing speak for PHAIV. Unravel the 'felts' for material and feeling in in that!

Obviously written with a deeply felt pen.

The only Roland I ever tried that didn't have a hard bottoming out was/is the FP4. Unfortunately it doesn't sound too good.

Would you care to elaborate your explanation in simple English, so that the non-technical amongst us (i.e. me, myself, yours truly ) can understand?

Are you talking about the kickback from the hammer? Because the hammer does escape the key, and you can feel it. If the hammer is always attached to the key, it's not a hammer, it's just a lever.

As for the 'hard' bottoming-out, yes, it is when compared to other Japanese brands (Kawai and Yamaha APs & DPs). But play some European acoustic brands, and you'll find similarly firm actions. The Grotrian-Steinweg grand that I sometimes play on (and it's only a few years old) feel very similar to the PHA-III on my V-Piano.

I've also played some older acoustic grands where the (previously plushy) felt beneath the most used keys in the middle have worn/flattened down, and it's disconcerting when the bottoming of the key action changes depending on where on the keyboard the key is.

My Petrof had a hard bottoming-out too until I recently had all the felt replaced. It had never been replaced and the instrument I think is from around 1988, so understandably it was time. The feel is much better now. I think with the FP-7 perhaps there is that lack of enough felt coupled with a very light action that caused the unnecessary strain I felt.

edited to add: Something else to keep in mind is the repertoire being played. I think with heavy Romantic or later music there's more of a chance to experience this than with Baroque or Classical periods, as less arm weight is used in the latter.

If you can still find a shop in the UK with one of those Roland PHAIII actions on display in a clear plastic case, take a look. The hammer does not escape the key when struck. Sure it's a separate lever, but press the key to the bottom and decide for yourself why the key cannot go further. Is it the key bed or the hammer? This is not how it is on an acoustic.

I have, and am pretty sure that the hammer is not attached to the key itself.

Look at this video, starting from 0:38 (this is PHA-II - I can't find one for PHA-III). The hammer seems attached to the key, because the key stroke is gentle, but notice how the hammer's head (i.e. distal end) bounces when released, yet the key itself is still. If you jerk the key (on a PHA-III) down sharply but stop it abruptly before it hits the bottom, you can feel the hammer kicking back a microsecond later, on its return. The fact that the key bottom rests on the proximal end of the hammer is irrelevant to how hard the key bottoms out - if Roland wanted to, they could have used thicker/softer felt underneath, when the bottoming would feel as mushy as you like.

http://youtu.be/y-yQO0sD6SQ

I think we're talking at cross purposes. I agree the hammer is not attached to the key, but it does not escape from the key lever in the same way as on an acoustic. It might disconnect under its own inertia, that's all. In fact that's another potential for injury, the weight on falling back pushes back on the finger which might still be depressing the key. You can hold the key close to the bottom, and feel the hammer weight, after playing the note, the YT video even shows that (it is held in position against the felt or where a string would be). On an acoustic, the hammer escapes but is caught and the double escapement allows you to play repetitive notes but only partially lifting the key to re-engage the hammer and that's what you feel.

The escapement advertised by Roland for DP s, is that simulated feel by a rubber notch or protrusion between hammer and key. That's all. Similar thing for Yamaha and Kawai.