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#2241535 - 03/04/14 10:05 PM setting the temperament with tunelab - 7bps
Spot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/21/13
Posts: 118
Loc: Australia
Hi guys,

I have been practicing setting my temperament by ear but usually revert back to tunelab once frustrated enough so I can move on and complete a tuning.

What I have been noticing is that when setting the temperament with tunelab pro, my F3 A3 beat speed is consistently slower than 7Bps.
It seems more about 5Bps.
I am yet to set an F3A3 interval that comes in at or even near 7Bps.

However once finishing the temperament, despite the F3A3 interval being slower than 7Bps, the progression of thirds does increase (not perfect but very good) evenly with increasing beat speeds.

Question is -

Has anybody else experienced this?
My templates dont work so I cant experiment with different templates.


Should I manage to get an F3A3 interval closer to 7Bps (by ear) and if I manage to fit in the evenly progressing thirds and 4;2 Octaves.

Will the piano sound better?

Or is this splitting hairs?
_________________________
Trainee tuner/technician

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#2241612 - 03/05/14 12:53 AM Re: setting the temperament with tunelab - 7bps [Re: Spot]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi Ben,

Yes, the FA can be correct at less than 7bps. (It is actually mathematically 6.9 I believe. More split hairs)

When I was learning, a tech used to invite me to his house to tune his piano and he test me using RPT exam criteria. (He was a CTE)

At the time, I was using the 7bps setting, but also experimenting with the skeleton. (Contiguous major thirds.) I would set FA using a metronome and think "At-lan-tic to Pa-ci-fic" each second.

Turns out my friend had a clock with a ticking second hand in the room. One time, after setting the skeleton and white anchor aurally, it was obvious that the FA was much slower than 7bps according to the clock.

I had also previously tuned this piano using the 7bps method on FA, and failed the mock exam, so I was happy to know that that was the reason; FA=7bps didn't work for this piano. (It was a Yamaha U1)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2241756 - 03/05/14 03:48 PM Re: setting the temperament with tunelab - 7bps [Re: Spot]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Where is the break?

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#2241876 - 03/05/14 07:43 PM Re: setting the temperament with tunelab - 7bps [Re: Spot]
Spot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/21/13
Posts: 118
Loc: Australia
Thanks Mark,

Yeah, I thought as much, but it just seemed funny that it is happening on all four pianos I have.

Might have something to do with the template I am stuck with on tunelab.

Had a break from tuning for awhile, we are moving house etc.

At the moment I am rewatching the lessons and freshening up on a few things.

Thanks again.

Really enjoyed the lessons.
smile

Ben
_________________________
Trainee tuner/technician

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#2241920 - 03/05/14 09:46 PM Re: setting the temperament with tunelab - 7bps [Re: DoelKees]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Where is the break?


You mean the tenor break? I think it's around D3? I know the bichords end at E3. But I could be wrong.

Ben, I have many new lesson videos on the website. Click on video podcasts or video lessons, can't remember what I called it. Our classes are stored under the class videos link.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2241927 - 03/05/14 10:10 PM Re: setting the temperament with tunelab - 7bps [Re: Spot]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2505
Loc: Olympia, WA
On many small pianos the thirds become slower than their theoretical beat speeds due to the jump in inharmonicity as you approach the bass/tenor break. This can cause the thirds to sound slower than ideal. if you try to speed them up the octaves start to beat on the wide side.

This same phenomenon also creates problems with the fifth. They tend to sound dirtier as you approach the break on small pianos - this is because the 6/4 coincidental partials are extra contracted due to the extra inharmonicity of the lower note of the interval.

Once the lower note of the interval crosses the break, the thirds may suddenly speed up again and the fifths will sound much cleaner.

I usually try to find the best compromise. I stretch the octaves as much as I can possibly stand (maybe about half a beat)to keep the thirds and fifths sounding a little more normal.

I had been tuning for a few years before the lightbulb went on regarding this phenomenon. Spinets, consols, and Baldwin Hamiltons used to make me go around in circles trying to get the proper beat speeds. Once I learned to predict the effects of inharmonicity, things became way easier.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2241937 - 03/05/14 10:42 PM Re: setting the temperament with tunelab - 7bps [Re: Spot]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Spot
Thanks Mark,

Yeah, I thought as much, but it just seemed funny that it is happening on all four pianos I have.

Might have something to do with the template I am stuck with on tunelab.

Had a break from tuning for awhile, we are moving house etc.

At the moment I am rewatching the lessons and freshening up on a few things.

Thanks again.

Really enjoyed the lessons.
smile

Ben


Theoretically F3A3 can beat as slow as 6.5 on highly inharmonic pianos, but not slower. This assumes setting them with contiguous M3's (F3A3C#4F4A4).

What do you mean with "template you're stuck with"?
If you don't measure your IH you can't really use tunelab and expect anything reasonable.

Otherwise it is possible that your F3 and/or A3 have irregular partials that don't fit the tunelab presumed pattern of deviation; this could cause anomalous beat rates.

Kees

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#2242012 - 03/06/14 02:32 AM Re: setting the temperament with tunelab - 7bps [Re: Spot]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1818
Loc: London, England
Assuming that The tuning starts on A as the given pitch, How does this F affect the beatrate of C#3~F3 & C#4-F4? We have to tune notes outside the scale area in order to prove and, if necessary, improve the scale area.

F3-C4 is another basic test, as are all the surrounding Bb's, the neighbouring D minor third and Ab minor third.

An ETD can give excellent results but some aural adjustment is often needed.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2242015 - 03/06/14 02:44 AM Re: setting the temperament with tunelab - 7bps [Re: Spot]
Spot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/21/13
Posts: 118
Loc: Australia
I thought that you still chose a template and then measured your inharmonicity.

But I am a total beginner and wouldnt know.

So I have been measuring my inharmonicity and getting that result.

So, do I still select a template and then measure my inharmonicity? Or does measuring become your template?

Thanks everyone.
_________________________
Trainee tuner/technician

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#2242093 - 03/06/14 08:32 AM Re: setting the temperament with tunelab - 7bps [Re: Spot]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1677
Loc: Chicagoland
Take a look at the graph of the tuning calculation - if you can't load a template, you might be tuning to a flat line - no stretch at all!

Measure - calculate a tuning - visually confirm via graph that you've got some kind of general tunelab curve going on... (use google to find an image.)

That's just the default beginning - then you can alter the stretch via the software to get any number of stretches for various sections of the piano.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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