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#2241950 - 03/05/14 11:30 PM Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas?
Hrodulf Offline
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Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
Here's my list:

Book I:c minor c# minor d major d minor e minor (second half) f major g major b flat major

Book II:d minor g major

The larger number of toccatas in book I is interesting and points to a difference between book I and II.
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#2242002 - 03/06/14 02:08 AM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Bullard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 20
Well...someone had to tell you, might as well be me. None of them. They're all preludes, or fugues. Bach did write toccatas, but they're labeled as so.

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#2242231 - 03/06/14 01:41 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Bullard]
Hrodulf Offline
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Loc: New York City
I should have mentioned in the style of toccatas I suppose if you want to split hairs.
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#2242266 - 03/06/14 03:37 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Online   content
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I'm not sure why this thread is in the Composers' Lounge.
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Polyphonist

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#2242330 - 03/06/14 06:23 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
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Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
It's a question about a composition.
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#2242339 - 03/06/14 06:41 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8902
Loc: New York City
Well then.
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Polyphonist

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#2242443 - 03/06/14 11:14 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Steve Chandler Offline
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Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 3149
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Hrodulf
It's a question about a composition.
But that question is one that would be of more interest to music theorists and historians than to composers. The harmonic analysis in the other thread is perhaps relevant, but this question holds even less interest to me.


Edited by Steve Chandler (03/06/14 11:19 PM)

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#2242539 - 03/07/14 07:58 AM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8902
Loc: New York City
I'm curious how the OP is defining toccatas, come to that. Where does he draw the line?
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Polyphonist

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#2242603 - 03/07/14 11:41 AM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
Pieces based on scales, arpeggiated chords or repetitive figures.
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#2242604 - 03/07/14 11:43 AM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Steve Chandler]
Hrodulf Offline
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Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Originally Posted By: Hrodulf
It's a question about a composition.
But that question is one that would be of more interest to music theorists and historians than to composers. The harmonic analysis in the other thread is perhaps relevant, but this question holds even less interest to me.


I didn't really know where else to put it since it isn't a question about playing the piano. It's more one about style of a particular group of compositions so I thought it went here.
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#2242612 - 03/07/14 11:59 AM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8902
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Hrodulf
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Originally Posted By: Hrodulf
It's a question about a composition.
But that question is one that would be of more interest to music theorists and historians than to composers. The harmonic analysis in the other thread is perhaps relevant, but this question holds even less interest to me.


I didn't really know where else to put it since it isn't a question about playing the piano. It's more one about style of a particular group of compositions so I thought it went here.

The Pianist Corner also hosts questions about repertoire. This one is more for composers to post their works and discuss others'.
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Polyphonist

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#2242621 - 03/07/14 12:14 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Polyphonist]
Hrodulf Offline
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Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
Ok, although this isn't very clear from the forum description.
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#2242628 - 03/07/14 12:23 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8902
Loc: New York City
"Welcome to The Pianist Corner, the place to talk about technique, performance, piano pieces, composers, competitions, etc."

Seems pretty clear to me...
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Polyphonist

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#2242691 - 03/07/14 02:31 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
I meant the composer's lounge forum description.
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#2242720 - 03/07/14 04:05 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Steve Chandler Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 3149
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Composers Lounge forum description:
Please limit this forum to discussions by composers or about composers. Of course, this is the place to ask composers questions too.

I suppose if your intent was to get a composer's viewpoint on Bach's well tempered clavier and toccatas in general then your inquiry was appropriately placed. In general I find Pianist Corner to be where analysis of existing repertoire questions usually get asked. This is typically a place for composers to post their work and get feedback from other composers. That's why I found your inquiry to be out of place. It also seemed as if you were asking a question to which you already had an answer. If your inquiry had been more about toccata composition in general then the inquiry would have been entirely appropriate.

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#2242731 - 03/07/14 04:23 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
I didn't see that description, I was referring to the forum summary listing which reads "A forum for composers to hang out, and the rest of us to ask them questions"
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#2242752 - 03/07/14 05:19 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8902
Loc: New York City
The problem is, I haven't seen Bach around on this forum lately. grin
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Polyphonist

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#2242772 - 03/07/14 05:46 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Polyphonist]
Hrodulf Offline
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Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
The question was obviously not directed towards Bach, who has been dead for 264 years. It was directed towards composers, about a question of style, in regard to these particular pieces. If I put it in the wrong place then I'm sorry. The last time I posted here was in 2009 and I don't remember every little detail of what is supposed to go where or what posts people want to see and what they don't. It's funny how people get into a multi-post argument about whatever mistakes I may have actually made. instead of talking about piano music.


Edited by Hrodulf (03/07/14 05:46 PM)
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#2242778 - 03/07/14 05:59 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8902
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Hrodulf
The question was obviously not directed towards Bach, who has been dead for 264 years.

Really?

Originally Posted By: Hrodulf
Pieces based on scales, arpeggiated chords or repetitive figures.

Then why isn't the C# major from Book I a toccata?
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Polyphonist

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#2242780 - 03/07/14 05:59 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
And I didn't start the same thread in pianist corner, so you see I'm learning.
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#2242783 - 03/07/14 06:01 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Polyphonist]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
It was supposed to be. c# minor was a mistyping for c# major.
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#2242787 - 03/07/14 06:01 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8902
Loc: New York City
Then why isn't the C# minor a toccata?
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Polyphonist

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#2242788 - 03/07/14 06:02 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Polyphonist]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
If you're debating whether Bach is dead then perhaps there is a bridge in brooklyn you may be willing to buy.
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#2242789 - 03/07/14 06:02 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Polyphonist]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
I don't remember what the C# minor is but I will look.
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#2242791 - 03/07/14 06:05 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
I don't consider this a piece emphasizing the performer's ability to nimbly play a lot of notes with good touch and quickly. The question is one of what the piece appears to be. I don't think this one is a toccata. I suppose you could play it really fast. But that would sound awful in my opinion.
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#2242792 - 03/07/14 06:05 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8902
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Hrodulf
If you're debating whether Bach is dead then perhaps there is a bridge in brooklyn you may be willing to buy.

Bach is DEAD?

cry
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Polyphonist

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#2242793 - 03/07/14 06:05 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Polyphonist Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8902
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Hrodulf
I don't consider this a piece emphasizing the performer's ability to nimbly play a lot of notes with good touch and quickly.

That wasn't your definition of toccata.
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Polyphonist

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#2242796 - 03/07/14 06:07 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
Most of them are, apparently.
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#2242798 - 03/07/14 06:09 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Polyphonist]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
Then I was wrong. I think the main thing is the nature of the piece being fast passagework, and yes, relying on scales and arpeggios like the G major prelude from book one being a great example. I think the definition of a toccata is on wikipedia and I will agree to whatever definition is there.
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#2242799 - 03/07/14 06:11 PM Re: Which preludes from the well tempered clavier are toccatas? [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 848
Loc: New York City
Perhaps the problem we're having is it's difficult to define some artistic terms with specificity. I am sure that toccatas written by different composers may be difficult to precisely categorize by a set of strict rules as to what a toccata is.

Fwiw

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
Toccata (from Italian toccare, "to touch") is a virtuoso piece of music typically for a keyboard or plucked string instrument featuring fast-moving, lightly fingered or otherwise virtuosic passages or sections, with or without imitative or fugal interludes, generally emphasizing the dexterity of the performer's fingers.


So I added the chord and scale thing. The G major Book 1 and D minor Book 2 seem to have those patterns. I was thinking of the C minor Book 1 and B flat major Book 2 regarding the repetitious patterns of notes.


Edited by Hrodulf (03/07/14 06:18 PM)
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