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#2242041 - 03/06/14 04:19 AM How to get to Minute Waltz or Grande Valse Brilliante
caters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 191
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
I can play quite a few allegro pieces including the first movement of Mozart's 16th piano sonata K 545 at speed. The famous Solfegio in C Minor though I can't play at speed. I have to slow it way down. I was once able to play the rondo of Clementi's Sonatina in C at presto because I was regularly practicing it but the Solfeggio in C minor is a different story. Even with my practicing I still haven't gotten to play it at a presto or prestissimo speed. How I am going to get to that speed? I mean it seems that my hands no matter how much I practice are used to playing allegro or slower.

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#2242043 - 03/06/14 04:32 AM Re: How to get to Minute Waltz or Grande Valse Brilliante [Re: caters]
ChopinLives81 Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 1433
Loc: New York City
I'm not sure I understand your question. What do you mean by "how to get to....?"
_________________________
"A Sorceror of tonality; the piano is my cauldron and the music is my spell, let those who cannot hear my calling die and burn in He11."

Check my videos @:
http://www.youtube.com/user/chopinlives81

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#2242100 - 03/06/14 08:48 AM Re: How to get to Minute Waltz or Grande Valse Brilliante [Re: caters]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5307
How fast do you want to play the Minute Waltz? In 59 seconds (sans repeat, of course)? wink

And which Grande valse brillante do you mean?
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2242122 - 03/06/14 09:42 AM Re: How to get to Minute Waltz or Grande Valse Brilliante [Re: caters]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4806
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Have you tried working with a metronome? If you play it at a certain speed perfectly, then increase the metronome a notch. If you can't play it perfectly, then you need to back down a bit and play a little slower until it is perfect. It takes time and practice.
_________________________
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Deborah

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#2242174 - 03/06/14 11:49 AM Re: How to get to Minute Waltz or Grande Valse Brilliante [Re: caters]
hreichgott Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1120
Loc: western MA, USA
These techniques have been effective for me in teaching the CPE Bach Solfeggietto in C minor

1. Play scales and broken triads every day, with a metronome, evenly, not fast. All keys are useful but C minor, B flat major and G major are especially good for this piece.

2. Play through the piece with a metronome at a comfortable speed where you play evenly and miss no notes. If you miss notes or play unevenly at any speed, don't try to speed it up yet, instead work on note and fingering security first.

3. Identify the places where it's hardest to get where you need to be on time. A good candidate is that spot near the beginning with the quickly changing progression from Cm to Fm to Bb to Eb, maybe measure 5? Then figure out strategic ways to arrive earlier, for example, while the right hand is playing C-G-Eb-Ab, the left hand can move to the F early. Work on those spots in very small note groups, no more than 6 notes at a time, that include the strategic early movements, getting each one right with no pauses at least 5 times.

4. If you want to play the piece faster than your reading speed, memorize it, however you normally memorize music.

5. Take a largish section, like 8 measures, and play it with a metronome slowly, then so slowly it hardly sounds like the same piece, then slightly faster than comfortable, and repeat. When things start to go wrong at the faster speeds, don't just try it again, notice what specifically is going wrong and why, and try to figure out a way to fix it (relearn note, make a more efficient fingering, different hand movement to avoid tension, etc.)

6. Take 4-measure sections and practice a few times in different rhythms: dotted eighth-sixteenth with the sixteenth accented, sixteenth-dotted eighth, eighth-sixteenth-sixteenth, triplets with the first of each triplet accented, anything is helpful so long as you're shifting where the long and short notes are, and changing the pattern of accents.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sometimes a bagatelle is just a bagatelle. Beethoven Op. 33
Daily 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2, Pischna
Loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
Always a fan of Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2242178 - 03/06/14 11:52 AM Re: How to get to Minute Waltz or Grande Valse Brilliante [Re: caters]
hreichgott Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1120
Loc: western MA, USA
PS playing the Minute Waltz in a minute is just a jokey parlor trick. It's possible but it doesn't fit Chopin's intentions for the music.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sometimes a bagatelle is just a bagatelle. Beethoven Op. 33
Daily 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2, Pischna
Loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
Always a fan of Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2242199 - 03/06/14 12:33 PM Re: How to get to Minute Waltz or Grande Valse Brilliante [Re: hreichgott]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5307
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
PS playing the Minute Waltz in a minute is just a jokey parlor trick. It's possible but it doesn't fit Chopin's intentions for the music.

It's possible that the 'minute' means tiny, rather than referring to time wink.

BTW, I made a recording of it last year (with repeat), and the video's timing is 1:34. I need to go faster.....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2242213 - 03/06/14 12:54 PM Re: How to get to Minute Waltz or Grande Valse Brilliante [Re: caters]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: caters
I can play quite a few allegro pieces including the first movement of Mozart's 16th piano sonata K 545 at speed. The famous Solfegio in C Minor though I can't play at speed. I have to slow it way down. I was once able to play the rondo of Clementi's Sonatina in C at presto because I was regularly practicing it but the Solfeggio in C minor is a different story. Even with my practicing I still haven't gotten to play it at a presto or prestissimo speed. How I am going to get to that speed? I mean it seems that my hands no matter how much I practice are used to playing allegro or slower.

Post a video of you trying. It's easiest to answer these kinds of question when we can see how you're playing. smile
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2242216 - 03/06/14 12:55 PM Re: How to get to Minute Waltz or Grande Valse Brilliante [Re: caters]
phantomFive Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1553
Loc: California
It is tempting to think that the goal is to get your fingers faster, but most people can already play fast, just kind of roll your fingers along, like this guy:



If you can't figure out how he plays it that fast, the watch it a few times until you get it. Because you can do the same thing.

Once you figured that one out, do the same thing with more complex patterns. You can play almost any four-note sequence the same way, by anticipated where your fingers should land. Then you can play any of the songs you listed by dividing them up into four-note sections.

By this point, it should be obvious that the hard part isn't playing fast, the hard part is playing with precision.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2242236 - 03/06/14 01:51 PM Re: How to get to Minute Waltz or Grande Valse Brilliante [Re: hreichgott]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1493
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
These techniques have been effective for me in teaching the CPE Bach Solfeggietto in C minor

1. Play scales and broken triads every day, with a metronome, evenly, not fast. All keys are useful but C minor, B flat major and G major are especially good for this piece.

2. Play through the piece with a metronome at a comfortable speed where you play evenly and miss no notes. If you miss notes or play unevenly at any speed, don't try to speed it up yet, instead work on note and fingering security first.

3. Identify the places where it's hardest to get where you need to be on time. A good candidate is that spot near the beginning with the quickly changing progression from Cm to Fm to Bb to Eb, maybe measure 5? Then figure out strategic ways to arrive earlier, for example, while the right hand is playing C-G-Eb-Ab, the left hand can move to the F early. Work on those spots in very small note groups, no more than 6 notes at a time, that include the strategic early movements, getting each one right with no pauses at least 5 times.

4. If you want to play the piece faster than your reading speed, memorize it, however you normally memorize music.

5. Take a largish section, like 8 measures, and play it with a metronome slowly, then so slowly it hardly sounds like the same piece, then slightly faster than comfortable, and repeat. When things start to go wrong at the faster speeds, don't just try it again, notice what specifically is going wrong and why, and try to figure out a way to fix it (relearn note, make a more efficient fingering, different hand movement to avoid tension, etc.)

6. Take 4-measure sections and practice a few times in different rhythms: dotted eighth-sixteenth with the sixteenth accented, sixteenth-dotted eighth, eighth-sixteenth-sixteenth, triplets with the first of each triplet accented, anything is helpful so long as you're shifting where the long and short notes are, and changing the pattern of accents.


Thx!! Excellent tips.....

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