Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound

I was all set to pull the trigger, and then read a litany of posts about latency and other technical difficulties with VST's in the thread. Then, most of those who did post their evaluations indicated some form of difficulty with downloading, setup, or performance.

The exception to the rule was dmd who reported a smooth download and setup experience.

Being new to the world of VST's, I don't know what to make of the seemingly large amount of difficulty in using them. I'm asking the question, "Are they more trouble than they are worth?"

I listened to the side by side comparison posted yesterday of Vintage D and the Ravenscroft, and frankly… I liked the sound of the Vintage D. Having read the forums the past several years, the Vintage D seems to be a tried and true VST that consistently receives high marks.

All of this to say, I'm undecided about whether to buy the Ravenscroft, the Vintage D, or something other.

Suggestions and comments are appreciated.

There is another thread at a forum called keyboard corner at forums.musicplayer (I think).
You can read more about RC and other vst's there.

Does anyone care to post an example of the muted notes feature? I would be really interested :-)

On their website I find little more than

"Muted Strikes are unique to the Ravenscroft 275 VI and are multi-velocity samples of each key, but with the strings muted for an interesting effect."

Thomas

Well, here is my take on all of this ...

Let me say first, that I do very little fooling with the parameters that we can change. I change the Timbre a little, fuss with the velocity curve, maybe a touch somewhere else and then I play. So, my opinion is a very intuitive non-analytical one.

I have many software pianos and in my opinion, Ravenscroft and Ivory II Concert D are at the very top of all of them.

Is there a great deal of difference between Vintage D and either of these ? Well, I was not using Vintage D very much and I will be using one of these two all the time from now on.

Is it worth the money ? That depends upon what $150 means to you. If you have to cut down on lunch for a month to make it, I would say ... No, it isn't. If nothing in your life changes by purchasing it, well ... then it probably is.

In my opinion, it is better than everything I experienced other than Ivory II Concert D and I am not even sure about that yet.



Having said that ...

As I have previously stated, I am still unable to use any of the software pianos as a single sound source. I always blend in my ES7 Concert Grand with it. That seems to help give the sound a sense of coming from the instrument I am playing.

So, for me ... these software pianos are only a part of my sound and they provide me with many, many options. That is the value of them for me.

Really good, info Don

Thanks for your help!

minstrelman…
Thanks, also. I registered on that board, and have begun reading a thread on VST's.

H.K.

I too have purchased, downloaded and installed without any problems, I used the latest version of UVI Workstation 2.2, 96Khz/512 sample buffer. I rarely post, but I am a big fan of this forum and learn from its members contributions. I am sure there are many others out there that have purchased Ravenscroft and read this forum but aren't regular posters.

I find that Ravenscroft reminds me a lot of Pianoteq in its responsiveness and smoothness. I actually prefer Pianoteq to all others but I do purchase sample libraries that pique my interest and to enjoy a different sound.

KORG SG-1D with Pianoteq 4.54 Pro, Presonus Audiobox 22VSL, AKG 240 MK II, Intel Q9450 (cobbled together PC). I also have Vintage D and Ivory Pianos II, Ivory Italian Ivory ACD. Generally, I use Cantabile to load multiple VSTs and play midi files.

I'm not able to record a demo at the moment, but the "Muted Notes" is pretty much exactly what you'd expect. You assign it to a midi CC (like modulation wheel) and then it triggers samples with that thumpy stacatto sound when you mute the strings and then hit them - similar to that "Doge the Dodo" video you posted.

Probably not something I'll use very often, but nice to have nonetheless

It's nice to know that you guys like this new piano. I'd like to ask 2 questions, because I have True Keys (previous product of VI Labs) and I'm not satisfied with it:

1, Do you know how many dynamic levels of samples there are in the Ravenscroft piano?
TrueKeys pianos IIRC had only 9, and I suspect that's why I was always unsatisfied with its dynamics.

2, Is half-pedal capability improved in Ravenscroft piano, compared to TrueKeys pianos?
I didn't like the behavior of half-pedalling in True Keys: They seemed to only have 1 inbetween-position that was engaged only in a very narrow part of pedal movement, which made it almost unusable for me. Vintage D, on the other hand, reacts in multiple steps (or continuously, I don't know) in a larger part of pedal movement.

in reply to question #1:
this is from VI Labs Lance a few days ago (he does not give a number for how many layers, just says more):

" ...... I'm happy to answer those questions. First of all, sorry for the misunderstanding about comparing software to hardware. I'm sure you understand all the differences and as you say, you've many Kontakt instruments that take a while to load. There are always trade-offs to be made, so we're looking for the best balance of performance and sampling depth but without ridiculous load times. Developing a proprietary engine takes tens of thousands of dollars and a long period of R&D and all the subsequent testing, so this is unfortunately out of many company's range. And there are many benefits to using an already-developed mature engine such as NI or UVI compared to starting from scratch. We could have a great realistic VI piano, but if it's crashing all the time and causing other problems, what's that worth?

The size for the Ravenscroft VI is 35GB. We recommend 4GB of system RAM, but it only uses 600MB of RAM for a single mic patch, 800MB for the full patch. Loading additional mics, una corda, etc. uses more RAM but only slightly more than TK. It's technically the same as TK in having 4 mic positions--Ravenscroft has 4 discreet while TK has 3 plus an additional Mix which is the 4th (separate samples). The larger size comes from more velocity layers, more release and half-pedal samples, longer sustains (the Ravenscroft has an unbelievable sustain with multiple blooms/evolutions occurring as it sustains), and more samples for the new features such as Muted Strikes. But the bulk of it is more layers and longer samples due to the sustaining energy of the piano.

I'm currently going through the MIDI of Ruslan playing at NAMM and will get that posted later today. We're posting new demo videos too like we did for TK, so be on the lookout for those as well as more audio demos. We're on track to get this baby out tomorrow the 4th!"

I downloaded the Ravenscroft last night, installed it today, and have been playing with it on and off throughout the day.

I am really impressed! I had a very mixed impression from the demos so it seemed like a risk. But one or two of them gave me enough of a sense that it could be tweaked to my liking. It didn't take too much effort to do that. Mostly I made very small adjustments to tone and timbre and was able to take the edge off of the metallic ring that was disturbing me in many of the demos.

At this point I'm loving the sound, though I'm looking forward to tweaking it some more. You can really get lost in that gorgeous bass. The whole bottom half is beautifully sonorous. I also like the very realistic and pervasive resonance you can achieve without resorting to any reverb. I'd still like to get the woody, slightly percussive tapping I look for in the treble. Haven't been able to do that to my satisfaction yet.

As another poster put it, one of the most admirable qualities is the evenness across the entire keyboard. I have TK American D and I find the unevenness there very frustrating in the top half of the piano. Part of the upper range is overly percussive. A couple of the notes have a muted timbre that stands out in some mic combinations. But they have eliminated all those issues in the Ravenscroft as far as I can tell.

I should add that I'm playing on a Yamaha p-80 as a controller, and I imagine that could contribute to some of the effects I'm describing. I'm seeing a VPC1 in my future and I hope that will make a noticeable difference.

Installation was straightforward. I followed the video instructions with no problems.

I also play the Galaxy Vintage D, and I enjoy that piano very much. But I think that the Ravenscroft has moved the bar forward for virtual pianos. Great job, VI Labs. Now how about giving us an update of True Keys that will iron out some of the current issues? :-)

My opinion is rather limited as I'm a beginner, and had only listened to Pianotec before buying this. I've also been out of town and only installed it yesterday, on Intel Duo old macbook pro, ssd, and 4g ram. I had no problems at all with the installation. One minor hiccup that AZ Astro helped with earlier. Haven't had time to change presets at all. My impression is one where agree with what Bryanstern said earlier: "I love the sound. Both rich and and focused."
To me, a nice and even/uncolored overall presentation. I like it and was glad I was patient.

How does the sound compare to the other True Keys pianos? I found I really didn't like the German and favoured the Italian over the others. As I think someone mentioned here there is something similar about all 3 that I wasn't quite so keen on. I would hope that Ravenscroft sounds different enough.

At the moment I much prefer Vintage D over those 3 original True Keys pianos so not sure if I'd want this one.

Thanks for the information, sounds hopeful.

RE: the "mix" mic perspective - I guess that idea could be taken further, allowing the user to create their own "mix", and allow the samples to be saved to disk as a custom perspective. Perhaps less important now that SSDs are becoming so cost effective though.

Greg.

That sounds great. Thanks for the reply! If it's well done, I could imagine ordering it just for this feature. Thomas

Here are some of my impressions on the Ravenscroft 275:



I like it. A lot. This is definitely my new go-to piano, and it is my favorite sampled piano I've tried so far (I've tried most of them - except for Ivory).

The playability is excellent. VI Labs does a great job in this area IMO. The piano feels very fast, responsive, and easy to control. For me, it's a joy to play on, and it feels like I'm playing on a very expensive piano, which is basically the point right?

The scale is very even from top to bottom. No notes stand out to me as "problem notes". The piano has a unique and distinct tone which seems pretty versatile. It's fantastic for jazz. The bass is solid - perhaps not quite as "big" sounding as you'd expect on a 9 footer - but it sounds and plays great. The midrange obviously isn't as warm or lush as a lot of pianos and instead opts for more clarity and a little more bite to it. I like it, but YYMV. If you want a warm mellow sounding piano, you should do some more research. The treble is very clear and pure, but not too bright (a small complaint I have with the "Italian").




I don't know what VI labs changed in their recording/sampling process, but the samples on the Ravenscroft just sound more clean and transparent compared to their previous offerings. Maybe they used better mics or something. Whatever the case, this improves things top to bottom as there's less layers of digital artificiality and it sounds more like you're "there".

Compared to the other True Keys pianos, the "American" is obviously a warmer and mellower piano (although bit too mellow at ppp volumes IMO). I noticed some of the low bass notes on the "American" were a bit twangy, but the Ravenscroft doesn't have that problem. The bass is very even and smooth. There were also just a few notes in the upper mids of the "American" that had a hint of some kind of metallic resonance showing up in samples. I haven't noticed any problems in the Ravenscroft so far.

The "Italian" Fazioli shares some some of the same clarity and purity of the Ravenscroft, but it takes it slightly too far at times sounding a tad thin in some of the upper registers at stock settings. I get the feeling when playing the "Italian" that is has harder hammers or something, as I can hear more "attack" noise coming from it when playing. On some registers of the "Italian" I get the feeling that it's slightly thin sounding and lacking a little body.




The piano seems to have a lot of natural sympathetic resonance and harmonics. I wonder if this is correlated with the titanium elements of its build. I often pause and listen to the resonances, similar to how I pause on a real piano to listen to them - so that's a good sign. If you don't like the harmonics/resonance you can dial them down (literally).

The dynamic range is solid. The piano is surprisingly delicate at the quiet volumes. The samples don't just get softer - you also get a clear shift in the timbre as you decrease the velocity. The ppp notes sound very delicate with good clarity to them, coming out clear and distinct. This is nice, because I'm used to a lot of pianos just turning into an overly warm, muffled, muddy mess when you play at the very quiet volumes. True Keys "American" and "German" do this to an extent, getting a little muffled and blurry at low velocities, but that's not the case with this piano. Instead of getting muffled or muddy it takes on a lovely delicate timbre. Again, it just sounds and feels expensive to me.

I enjoy the una corda pedal on the Ravenscroft - it's effective in use, and it transitions in an out smoothly and naturally. It gives a nice shift in the timbre. I agree with what Dire Tonic said earlier about the una corda on the Galaxy Vintage D sounding a bit detached from the normal samples and sounding like it's coming from a different space in the soundstage, making it a bit akward to use. On True Keys "American" it's hard for me to discern if the una corda pedal is ON or OFF since there's not much shift in the timbre. True Keys "Italian" has a nice una corda on it though, and this Ravenscroft does as well. Definitely worth loading and using the una corda samples if you have a spare pedal to set up as a soft/una corda pedal (and if you don't, set one up already!)




I find the the "close" mic position to easily be the best sounding position. I like using it with the "close" mic mixed with a bit of either the "side" or "room" mics to add just a little bit of ambience. "Close" just by itself sounds great as well though. Using the other mics positions WITHOUT the "close" mic position in-play sometimes sounds a bit too distant and midrangey (and perhaps with too much glare/reflections going on).

The release samples sound very nice, and I'm not too afraid to play staccato on it. IMO, VI Labs has been pushing the bar forward in this particular area (release samples), and I think it's one of the reasons their pianos turn out to be nicely playable.

I played around with "Muted Strikes" (assigned it to the mod wheel). It's pretty much what you'd expect, and gives you that thumpy staccato sound when you mute the strings and then hit them. There are multiple velocity layers here as well, and lifting the dampers has an effect on the resonance. Not something I'll use all that much to be honest, but it's certainly appreciated to have it included in the package.

"Silent Strike" is..."the faint sound heard when a key is pressed so slowly as it doesn’t 'play' but instead causes a small thump of the jack escapement, felt damper lifting from the strings, or a combination of those mechanical sounds." I've played around with it some, but it's very subtle. It's just a very soft mechanical noise from the escapement jack when you silently press the key. I guess it adds to the realism a bit though.

"Timbre Shift" is another new feature which "works by shifting the root pitch of the samples up or down to create a darker or brighter tone.". It affects the sound in a pretty extreme way. If you turn it all the way up it basically turns the piano into a clavinet/harpsichord. If you want the more subtle darkening or brightening, that's the "Tone" knob.




Anyways, those are some of my impressions so far. I'm very happy with the piano overall, and I love playing on it. I think VI Labs did an awesome job with the piano (congrats guys!), and I think they did raise the bar in some areas.

Sure.

If you specifically after the "muted note" sound, I seem to recall there being a sample library or two for just those various "extra" sounds you can get out of a piano.

Maybe it was this one?
http://www.soniccouture.com/en/products/28-rare-and-experimental/g24-xtended-piano/

Thank you for your detailed review. Now that I have been playing the Ravenscroft Piano for (just!) a day I am in agreement. I am really warming up to the sound of this piano. There is a clarity and distinctiveness to the playing up and down the keyboard. It is very responsive and I have no sense of latency whatsoever. The dynamics are excellent, the best that I have encountered.

I have plopped down $50, $100, $200 for sampled pianos before and have been disappointed. I don't feel that way at all at this point.

When I am playing Ivory II, I use its built-in player which is a modified version of Cantabile.

I am wondering if I can use the Ivory II Cantabile to load and then play Ravenscroft. The Ivory II Cantabile software looks to me like Cantabile Lite on-screen.

[Edit: This turned out to be easy. You actually load UVI Workstation from Cantabile...]

I guess I'm interested in the steps it took you to "install" Ravenscroft inside Cantabile Lite.

Any guidance would be appreciated. ! Thx.

On a side note, the UVI Workstation seems to be working very well for me.

AZ_Astro

Thanks for taking the time to write that, chicolom. I feel pretty much the same way (and you've saved me a lot of typing ). I'd like to draw attention to what you said about the release samples; I think they're about the best that I've heard on any piano emulation.