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#2242607 - 03/07/14 11:52 AM 2+ octave run technique
Arizona Sage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 113
Loc: Arizona, USA, Earth
Whether it's scalar or arpeggio, I find single octave movements come with relative ease, but when I stretch to 2 octave (repeating pattern) runs I have the coordination of a bull in a china shop. I can only imagine that this is a hurdle that all pianists must overcome. My questions are, how?...and what exercises might I employ to strengthen my confidence?

An example would be a simple C minor blues run: C, Eb, F, Gb, G, Bb. What would the recommended fingering be to facilitate a multi-octave repeated pattern?

Another example is a C major scale (which works great when only one octave is used). I find my pinky (RH)on the octave. Is there a better way to finger the scale to allow for a seamless 2 scale or more run up and down?

Any advice or guidance would be most appreciated as I'm primarily self taught and want to address this for all scales and pentatonics.
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#2242614 - 03/07/14 12:02 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Arizona Sage]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7776
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Arizona Sage
Another example is a C major scale (which works great when only one octave is used). I find my pinky (RH)on the octave. Is there a better way to finger the scale to allow for a seamless 2 scale or more run up and down?

1231234 and repeat.
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Polyphonist

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#2242617 - 03/07/14 12:06 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Polyphonist]
Arizona Sage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 113
Loc: Arizona, USA, Earth
How about descending a C maj scale?
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Not on the rug, man...

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#2242630 - 03/07/14 12:27 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Arizona Sage]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7776
Loc: New York City
Starting on B, 4321321 and repeat.
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Polyphonist

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#2242633 - 03/07/14 12:30 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Arizona Sage]
Arizona Sage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 113
Loc: Arizona, USA, Earth
Thank you! Essentially leaving the pinky out of the mix entirely.
_________________________
Not on the rug, man...

My musical thingys: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=189614

Korg Kronos X88

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#2242665 - 03/07/14 01:39 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Arizona Sage]
Ataru074 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 390
Loc: Houston, TX
C major scale

1) hand separate
2) slow
3) start on each single note of the scale and go up 2 octaves
4) start on each single note of the scale and go down 2 octaves
5) use different rhythmic combinations:
5.a) 1/4 1/4 1/16 /16
5.b) 1/4 1/16 1/16 1/4
5.c) 1/16 1/16 1/4 1/4
5.d) 1/16 1/4 1/4 1/16
6) do it forte
7) do it piano
8) do it crescendo
9) do it diminuendo

get a book of scales for the fingering.

on your blues example... depends on many factors ( speed and control for example )
I'd do either (RH) 131213 or 131234
(LH) 121312 or 121432
_________________________
===============================================
working on:
Brahms: Op 118
Mozart: Kv330
Beethoven: Op 14 #2
===============================================

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#2242677 - 03/07/14 02:00 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Ataru074]
Arizona Sage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 113
Loc: Arizona, USA, Earth
Originally Posted By: Ataru074
C major scale

1) hand separate
2) slow
3) start on each single note of the scale and go up 2 octaves
4) start on each single note of the scale and go down 2 octaves
5) use different rhythmic combinations:
5.a) 1/4 1/4 1/16 /16
5.b) 1/4 1/16 1/16 1/4
5.c) 1/16 1/16 1/4 1/4
5.d) 1/16 1/4 1/4 1/16
6) do it forte
7) do it piano
8) do it crescendo
9) do it diminuendo

get a book of scales for the fingering.

on your blues example... depends on many factors ( speed and control for example )
I'd do either (RH) 131213 or 131234
(LH) 121312 or 121432





Thank you so much for your help! I appreciate it immensely.
_________________________
Not on the rug, man...

My musical thingys: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=189614

Korg Kronos X88

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#2242679 - 03/07/14 02:08 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Arizona Sage]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2423
Loc: Virginia, USA
Usually the problem is that darn thumb has to move so I would practice that bit especially. I'm doing a Czerny study with a ton of F major arpeggios (there are some others too, including a nasty one based on a diminished chord). My teacher's main comment at the lesson was the audible break where the thumb moves.

Another common problem is the keyboard topography changes when we move up and down the keyboard. You don't notice it for an octave but two - yup. So practice blocking the chords in both octaves and moving between them.
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  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

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#2242685 - 03/07/14 02:19 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Andy Platt]
Arizona Sage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 113
Loc: Arizona, USA, Earth
I watched a video somewhere about the thumb position possibly contributing to the lack of a smooth transition. I've found myself playing the thumbed notes with the nail portion of the thumb. The guy in the video suggested moving the thumb further "into" the key, playing more on the side of the first knuckle of the thumb. The change in hand position is remarkable.
_________________________
Not on the rug, man...

My musical thingys: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=189614

Korg Kronos X88

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#2242690 - 03/07/14 02:30 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Arizona Sage]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12207
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Arizona Sage
I watched a video somewhere about the thumb position possibly contributing to the lack of a smooth transition. I've found myself playing the thumbed notes with the nail portion of the thumb. The guy in the video suggested moving the thumb further "into" the key, playing more on the side of the first knuckle of the thumb. The change in hand position is remarkable.


Actually, you don't want to really play on the side of the thumb with the knuckle like that. The idea is to get all of your different lengths of fingers to be even. If you play on the side of the thumb (meaning have a lot of contact with all of the nail joint pressing down the key), you will have a hitch in the sound and it will slow you down. I tend to play on the fleshy part next to the nail.
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MTNA member
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2242702 - 03/07/14 03:09 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Morodiene]
Arizona Sage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 113
Loc: Arizona, USA, Earth
Yes, that's what I meant...sorry. I meant that I was using just the tip of my thumb vs pushing more of my thumb forward.
_________________________
Not on the rug, man...

My musical thingys: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=189614

Korg Kronos X88

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#2243021 - 03/08/14 07:28 AM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Arizona Sage]
Ataru074 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 390
Loc: Houston, TX
Good old uncle Liszt have plenty of exercises.... his whole book 2 of exercises is dedicated to prepare for the scales..
http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks...41412vol._2.pdf
_________________________
===============================================
working on:
Brahms: Op 118
Mozart: Kv330
Beethoven: Op 14 #2
===============================================

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#2243083 - 03/08/14 11:06 AM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Arizona Sage]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12207
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Arizona Sage
Yes, that's what I meant...sorry. I meant that I was using just the tip of my thumb vs pushing more of my thumb forward.


OK, that makes more sense. It's hard to describe technical issues on a forum, and much easier to just show. smile
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2243163 - 03/08/14 01:25 PM Re: 2+ octave run technique [Re: Ataru074]
Arizona Sage Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 113
Loc: Arizona, USA, Earth
Originally Posted By: Ataru074
Good old uncle Liszt have plenty of exercises.... his whole book 2 of exercises is dedicated to prepare for the scales..
http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks...41412vol._2.pdf



Wow. Thank you for sharing this! Have a gig tonight with my AC/DC tribute act. Tomorrow I will attack this with zeal. Thanks again.
_________________________
Not on the rug, man...

My musical thingys: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=189614

Korg Kronos X88

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