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#2245728 - 03/13/14 02:31 AM What lubricant you advise?
myg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 30
Hello,

I have a squeak in joints of damper lift rod in bass diapason (http://youtu.be/l4sG_CC-fk4)

What lubricant you advise for joints of damper lift rod ?

Or you have another advice to eliminate this shortcoming?

Thank you.

P.S. I am not piano technician! But my known technicians advise me very different lubricants! Some of them advise me protek, others - graphite (they insist to dismantle a damper lift rod before lubrication). What do you think about lubricants in my case?

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#2245733 - 03/13/14 02:45 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21925
Loc: Oakland
It does not sound like a squeak, but like there is some clicking. That should not happen. A good technician could track down the problem and fix it.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2245734 - 03/13/14 02:51 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: BDB]
myg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 30
thank you for reply! No, this is maybe because of the interrupted movement of my hands! I try to ketch squeak. Joints of damper lift rod generate this sound...

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#2245802 - 03/13/14 08:53 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
On hard surfaced/coupled joints I try to introduce a softer material between them if its not there already. Felts, and leather have traditioanlly worked well. On these I sometimes get an actual squeek. Often its because there is excess lateral play between the parts and I first try and limit this sideways or arcing movement. I also sometimes use a teflon impregnated synthetic grease with leathers and felts to quiet a squeak.

I too, didn't hear a squeak on the video, just a ratcheting/clicking kind of sound.


Edited by Emmery (03/13/14 08:53 AM)
_________________________
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#2245863 - 03/13/14 10:44 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Hello I never seen one of those fixtures not made with a piece of bushing cloth inside, against friction and noise.

If too much wear, the rod is not tight and can squeak.
I use graphite grease, or Vaseline plus talcum, there (not on the rod)
The first fixture near the pedal rod is usually the cause of trouble. Sometime only one to repair/lube.
That is a job for a technician but have a look at the play of the rod where it connect with the pedal vertical rod. If it moves the first connexion need to be tightened, rebusched


Edited by Olek (03/13/14 10:48 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2245877 - 03/13/14 11:21 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4234
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Sounds like the spring on the rod is jumping around catching something. This needs to come apart to locate the source of the noise. At the same time lubricate all of the bushings in the rod and pedal set.

I don’t believe lubrication will fix this one.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2246270 - 03/13/14 11:32 PM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
rysowers Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2505
Loc: Olympia, WA
I hate to see graphite anywhere near a piano! (except where the manufactures put it to begin with)
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Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2246294 - 03/14/14 01:02 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1105
Loc: PA
I do hear a low-pitched squeak even though it is way overshadowed by the clicking noise. You can hear that something is audibly rubbing. It becomes more and more noticeable as the video progresses.

There are several possibilities. But, none of them should be attempted by an untrained person.

I don't think the problem is with the lifter rod (Of course, I could be wrong;I'm not there to actually examine the piano.) You are using your hand rather than the pedal to move the dampers away and the problem is still there. It seems like you took the lifter rod out of the equation.

Personally, I find the click more annoying.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2246346 - 03/14/14 05:47 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I did not see the video, there is a spring noise (can also squeak)

same as Dan, return spring of the damper rod (not the vertical rod) it can also be a foreign object. not something you really can do yourself.

too strong spings are a source of squeaks, noise and wear, the damper springs are regulated usually, but the return spring can only be mounted in another position if it is too strong.

not something lube will cure as it is clearly a tick that is heard
damper lift rod pivots need only lubes after decades, not on a recent piano.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2246347 - 03/14/14 05:52 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper

I don't think the problem is with the lifter rod (Of course, I could be wrong;I'm not there to actually examine the piano.) You are using your hand rather than the pedal to move the dampers away and the problem is still there. It seems like you took the lifter rod out of the equation.

Personally, I find the click more annoying.


excuse me Daniel , how do you call the rod that lift the dampers ? the one on the action, not the vertical transmission ? thanks




Edited by Olek (03/14/14 05:52 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2246356 - 03/14/14 06:13 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: Olek]
myg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 30
Hello!

I mean noise of joints of dumper lift rod (24 position on the pic: http://www.pianosupply.com/anonftp/upright.jpg)

I will try to dismount piano action tomorrow and try to locate a source of noise. Is it difficult to dismount and mount piano action of upright piano for amateur?

When I press right pedal or press dumper lift rod by hand - the noise is the same...






Edited by myg (03/14/14 06:13 AM)

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#2246360 - 03/14/14 06:20 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
there is a flat return spring that may be the cause of noise.

sometime it is an extra damper, without head and loaded with a strong spring. can be noisy too. the crack is so evident it should not be difficult to trace . re-installing some actions can be a little difficult, but not extreme.
the transmission of the sustain pedal should be installed well without damaging the noise absorbing part installed if it is a rubber. It is unlikely that the lift rod pivots are in cause in my opinion.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2246487 - 03/14/14 11:50 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
You have a new Bechstein, a very high end and expensive piano.
Don't fiddle with it yourself. A lot can go wrong - dampers are as sensitive part of a a piano, and if they get knocked out of adjustment you will not be able to get them working properly again.. Get a technician to properly diagnose the problem and fix it.
If your technician cannot do this properly, get a new technician.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2246819 - 03/15/14 03:20 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: Olek]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1105
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper

I don't think the problem is with the lifter rod (Of course, I could be wrong;I'm not there to actually examine the piano.) You are using your hand rather than the pedal to move the dampers away and the problem is still there. It seems like you took the lifter rod out of the equation.

Personally, I find the click more annoying.


excuse me Daniel , how do you call the rod that lift the dampers ? the one on the action, not the vertical transmission ? thanks




You are right, Isaac. It was late when I replied (around 2 AM or 3 AM locally, I think) and I was still half asleep. I meant to refer to the linkage that connects to the rod.

It could be so many things. A squeak always indicates friction.

It could be roughness on the lifter rod as it swings forward to move the dampers away from the springs. The could be a burr where the rod hangs/pivots. It could be one or more or most of the springs. So many possibilites...

If the problem is a rough surface on the rod and/or burr(s), this needs to be polished out. Lubrication may work temporarily. But, the problem will recur.

Learning piano repair is best done on older instruments ... at least initially. If an major error occurs, a valuable piano has not been harmed. There is the added benfit of working on a piano that actually needs work. You get to see what happens to the piano as it ages and starts to break down.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2246917 - 03/15/14 10:19 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: rysowers]
myg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 30

Originally Posted By: rysowers
I hate to see graphite anywhere near a piano! (except where the manufactures put it to begin with)

Why you hate a graphite in piano? What are your reasons?


Edited by myg (03/15/14 10:20 AM)

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#2246950 - 03/15/14 11:28 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2423
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Graphite solutions are MESSY! Technicians used to put them on key bushings staining the key-sticks UGLY! Maybe some still do somewhere in piano tuner heck.

These solutions can spill in your tool kit, in the car, in the customers home. All horrible. You can use teflon powders and dry film spray lubes that do not cause stains. Modernity does have some advantages.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2247014 - 03/15/14 01:07 PM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I just LOVE it when a technician has "lubricated" the key bed with graphite so that the action slides in and out more easily. You pull out the action and rest it on your knees and then you realize that your pants and hands are now covered in graphite...
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2247092 - 03/15/14 04:42 PM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: Olek]
myg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 30
Originally Posted By: Olek
I did not see the video, there is a spring noise (can also squeak)

same as Dan, return spring of the damper rod (not the vertical rod) it can also be a foreign object. not something you really can do yourself.

too strong spings are a source of squeaks, noise and wear, the damper springs are regulated usually, but the return spring can only be mounted in another position if it is too strong.

not something lube will cure as it is clearly a tick that is heard
damper lift rod pivots need only lubes after decades, not on a recent piano.


Additions: 1) the squeak will intensify when humidity reduces (winter). In rainy summer the sqeak is quiet.
2) the squeak goes from left side of piano action - bass diapason.
3) when I move dumper rod by hand (see my video) I feel additional little resistance on my hand and very little vibration of the rod (as if dumper rod gets a resistance during its rotation).

Originally Posted By: Supply
your knees and then you realize that your pants and hands are now covered in graphite...


What is an obstacle to use graphite in joints of damper lift rod?
If the source of noise - joints of damper lift rod...


Edited by myg (03/15/14 04:57 PM)

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#2247096 - 03/15/14 04:47 PM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21925
Loc: Oakland
The piano looks new. If it is, get it fixed under the warranty.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2247104 - 03/15/14 04:59 PM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4234
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: myg

Additions: 1) the squeak will intensify when humidity reduces (winter). In rainy summer the sqeak is quiet.

Call a local technician of your choice, to book an appointment.
Originally Posted By: myg
2) the squeak goes from left side of piano action - bass diapason.

Call a local technician of your choice, to book an appointment.
Originally Posted By: myg
3) when I move dumper rod by hand (see my video) I feel additional little resistance on my hand and very little vibration of the rod (as if dumper rod gets a resistance during its rotation).

Originally Posted By: Olek

……same as Dan, return spring of the damper rod (not the vertical rod) it can also be a foreign object. not something you really can do yourself.

Did someone mention calling a technician to book an appointment? I think several technicians here have…. We can’t fix the problem from here.
Best of luck,
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2247111 - 03/15/14 05:08 PM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: BDB]
myg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 30
Originally Posted By: BDB
The piano looks new. If it is, get it fixed under the warranty.


This is 5 years old piano. The warranty finished 13 March 2014.
Technician from Bechstein salon visited me last summer and did not understand the source of the noise. As I wrote before in summer the noise is quiet. This winter noise increased as you see on video. I have found 3 independent technicians, and one of them said me that if it is joints of damper rod - then use Protek, another said to change a felt whell of joints, another said - use graphite. My question on this forum was "What lubricant you advise?"

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#2247114 - 03/15/14 05:11 PM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21925
Loc: Oakland
If you complained about it last year, and the store's technicians did not repair it, it is still a warranty issue. If the dealer cannot handle it, then get them to get someone from higher up in the distribution chain.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2247338 - 03/16/14 07:17 AM Re: What lubricant you advise? [Re: myg]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
may be the action stack is slightly bowed, pushing a little the lift rod out of alignment.

I never have seen much tolerance problems on the lift rod, and the pivots are tolerant, they are screwed in place in regard of the rod.

Did the tuners test separately the dampers (by hand) and the rod ?

It may be a 1 hour job to dismount all necessary parts to have access to the rod, correct any cracking problem and replace.

Listening, it sound like a spring that have a non smooth path at some point, but indeed if it was traced to be within the damper rod pivots, I do not understand why it is not cured yet.

You can unscrew the 3-4 bolts that secure the stack, take out if necessary the left pedal vertical rod, and incline the action so you can test separately the dampers and the rod. Then push on the rod while pushing on the dampers with a stick or by hand (so you may locate more precisely where the crack is coming from )
push on the wooden blades, not on the felts.

Often, the action inclined ois sort of secured, you do not need to secure it to the bolts in the frame, but it can be done with an electrical wire so you do not need to hold the action while testing (or wooden block(s) between the keys and the hammer rest rail).

I am sorry that if the noise comes from the rod you need a technician. If the return spring produce the crack it may be easy, and easy to test, put a finger on the spring while moving the rod, a strong crack can be perceived that way (or diseappear, sign that the blade leathere need a lube)
STrong lubes are used for strong friction, while a greasy leather will crack, eventually (I do not trust Teflon for hard friction nor for leather) Graphite (or even pencil) have its use , of course not in some places (not on buckskin leather for instance)

Talcum is also efficient , need to be mixed with a little tallow and bees wax so it is not too greasy.
If a leather produce cracks it is often a surface defect it need to be cleaned/surfaced before lubrication (almost "dry lube")

Cracks are often audible when springs are effectively pushing on the rod, be it damper springs or return springs, and the rod does not pivots cleanly for some reason. SO with the rod alone (maximum dampers pushed with a long stick) you may just feel that it does not move freely, but you will hear nothing.

BTW lubing the keybed of grands with graphite is for idiots ! it does not work, and the keyframe is more efficiently lightly sanded so to raise the fiber, a little talcum used while sanding.

NOthing more. I used Teflon spray but stopped because of fumes going all around. I prefer not to have teflon particules anywhere near the piano, in case I have to glue back something someday. ( wink )

BTW it is still a guarantee job, as it have not been fixed before, in my opinion.



Edited by Olek (03/16/14 07:21 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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