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#2248760 - 03/19/14 08:01 AM Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords
joshuadevine Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 4
I need help compiling songs (suitable for children) that use only the tonic and dominant chord in the first 8-32 measures. Like many teachers I am annoyed and bored to tears by mainstream curricula like Alfred, Bastien, Micheal Aaron, and Piano Adventures. I want a good database of children's music (organized by harmonic complexity) and I intend to create it.

My current list is

Classical
Prince of Denmark's March (Clarke)
Marriage of Figaro (Mozart)
Musette (Bach)
A Little Night Music (Mozart)
Ode to Joy (Beethoven)
Trumpet Voluntary (Clarke)
Waltz in C (Diabelli)
Little March (Turk)
Little Dance (Turk)
Barber of Seville (Rossini)
Little Melody (Kabelevsky)

Traditional
Frere Jacques
Simple Gifts
Hot Cross Buns
Mary Had a Little Lamb
Down By the Station
Molly Malone
London Bridge
The Farmer in the Dell
Alouette
Skip to My Lou
A Tisket a Tasket
The Itsy Bitsy Spider
Little Bo Peep

My list is too short. There are hundreds of pieces still to find. The framework for this project is currently in place at Paint with Piano.com. For reference, see the attached pictures to understand the formant this music will take.

I appreciate any suggestions! Music from any source (folk or otherwise) is great.

Ode to Joy
Waltz in C

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#2248873 - 03/19/14 12:58 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: joshuadevine]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5459
Loc: Orange County, CA
I fail to see the point of this project. How would tonic/dominant music be interesting in the first place? That would annoy me and bore me to tears.
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Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#2248887 - 03/19/14 01:32 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: AZNpiano]
joshuadevine Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
I fail to see the point of this project. How would tonic/dominant music be interesting in the first place? That would annoy me and bore me to tears.


Are you kidding? I just added this piece to the collection this morning. I challenge you to find a more interesting piece of music to teach and play with a 6 year old in any standard piano curriculum. Frogs on Logs just doesn't cut it (if you have ever used piano adventures...)

.















































What fun, when, in the second level kids learn about the sub dominant chord! Then you can build up the rest of the structure and play the second half of the piece! Kids learn to listen to, understand, and love music when taught harmony.

And how, exactly, do you teach piano to young children? By teaching them one note at a time? Introducing notated pitches one at a time is one of the most hurtful practices of modern music pedagogy. Words are not constructed from sequenced letters (i.e. ABC is not a word) and musical harmony is not constructed from sequenced notes (i.e. ABC is not a valid chord nor is it a valid harmonic progression). Kids learn nothing when taught sequenced musical notation. It spoils their ear, bores them to tears (and me) and confuses their eyes.

If you fail to see the point of compiling a good collection of music which uses the tonic and dominant chords, you must have a very boring relationship with concert music. The tonic and Dominant relationship is the essential idea that gives music life. Tension and release. Go listen to Beethoven (or Mozart, or Bach, or Schubert, or Liszt, or Mahler, or Strauss, or Wagner, or any composer who has ever written western concert music...) and then tell me the tonic and dominant is boring. Really, go play Beethoven's first sonata and tell me what happens in the first eight measures.


Edited by joshuadevine (03/19/14 01:57 PM)

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#2248928 - 03/19/14 03:02 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: AZNpiano]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3190
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
I fail to see the point of this project. How would tonic/dominant music be interesting in the first place? That would annoy me and bore me to tears.


We just had this conversation.

It turns out you need four chords to be popular. Almost all hits are four chord songs.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2248946 - 03/19/14 03:44 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: joshuadevine]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11657
Loc: Canada
While the recording is lovely, that is not what is in the notation and what the student will be playing. Your recording is in Bb major so I played your recording in Bb major and got this:

https://app.box.com/shared/static/vddzgywvh32k7o8f7w9v.mp3

Does the link you posted accompany your package, so that the student would be hearing it in Bb major?

What are your thoughts about the end of line 2 going into line 3 in terms of fingering or hand position? At the very end, are you intending students to move reach for a 6th?

What bothers me is that you have made assumptions about what the teachers in this forum do:
Quote:
... Introducing notated pitches one at a time is one of the most hurtful practices of modern music pedagogy. ... Kids learn nothing when taught sequenced musical notation. It spoils their ear, bores them to tears (and me) and confuses their eyes.

Wouldn't it make sense to first ask them what they do?

What do the students do with their left hand?

I've seen examples of adult method books where the CD has a full orchestra, while the actual music is a bare simple tune. Dunno - there's not much to go on.

I am uncomfortable about a 3-line staff depending on what you do with it afterward. Are you keeping students in C major for a long time? (I'm assuming you didn't really intend a beginner piece in Bb major.)

Above all, there are assumptions about the whats and hows of teaching.

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#2248951 - 03/19/14 03:50 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: joshuadevine]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5459
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: joshuadevine
And how, exactly, do you teach piano to young children? By teaching them one note at a time? Introducing notated pitches one at a time is one of the most hurtful practices of modern music pedagogy.

Well, then, you are quite the pioneer in modern music pedagogy. Congratulations for reinventing the wheel and obliterating hundreds of years of music pedagogy. I bet all of your students turn out to love piano forever and enter conservatories by age 12. cool

Originally Posted By: joshuadevine
If you fail to see the point of compiling a good collection of music which uses the tonic and dominant chords, you must have a very boring relationship with concert music.

That's right. I'm boring. I'm SO boring. Please, please, PLEASE give me more pieces in I-V-I-V-I structure so my ears won't get so bored with concert music.
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#2248955 - 03/19/14 04:00 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: keystring]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5459
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: keystring
What bothers me is that you have made assumptions about what the teachers in this forum do

You know what happens when people assume...
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#2248957 - 03/19/14 04:02 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: joshuadevine]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3190
Loc: Virginia, USA
I think that joshua's quest is incompletely stated.

Looking for children's music, it is an unstated assumption that the music is familiar.

Building on familiar music, starting very simple and adding harmonic complexity slowly could be a viable strategy. It's one of the ways jazz improvisers start out. They often start with blues (I, IV, V) and can certainly make interesting melodic lines above a simple structure.

I think the error here is in assuming there really is a body of familiar children's music. My experience is that children no longer hear nursery rhymes at home while young, and essentially grow up without this background.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2248967 - 03/19/14 04:32 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: joshuadevine]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3171
Loc: Maine
Is it an unstated assumption that the music is familiar? I interpreted "suitable for children" to mostly mean "the lyrics aren't along the lines of 'I lust for your private parts'."

I've never understood this focus on familiar music. All the songs I know, I didn't used to know them, and then I met them someplace, and then I discovered I liked them. We had a book of folksongs when I was a child and I learned them by playing them on the recorder to find out what they sounded like. I felt no problem or reservation that these weren't restricted to the few songs I knew from the playground.
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Ebaug(maj7)

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#2248973 - 03/19/14 04:59 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: joshuadevine]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
How about this masterpiece?

_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2249125 - 03/19/14 10:55 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: joshuadevine]
hreichgott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 969
Loc: western MA, USA
This is close to the way Suzuki rep is organized, partly because it moves fast, from single note melody to melody accompanied by Alberti bass and other broken-chord patterns in just a few pieces. In order to keep the accompaniment manageable, guessable by ear and easy to memorize, the harmonies are limited at first. In book I:
Twinkles - single note melody
Honeybee - 2 hands unison melody
Lightly Row - accomp. in C major, G major
Cuckoo - C, G, brief moving bass line in stepwise motion that implies G7
French Children's Song - C, G, G7
London Bridge - C, G
Mary Had a Little Lamb - C, G
Go Tell Aunt Rhody - C, G, F (F appears only in middle section)
Au Clair de la Lune - C and G7, brief moving bass line with leaps that implies C, D and G
Long Long Ago - C, G, G7
Little Playmates - C, G7
Chant Arabe - Am, E
Allegretto 1 - C, G7
Goodbye to Winter - moving bass line implying G, D7, Am
Allegretto 2 - fast moving unison melody
Christmas Day Secrets - C, G7, D, D7
Allegro - G, C, D7
Musette - pedal points on D and A with additional harmony in Dm, Gm, A7, A


Book 2 and up are exclusively classical rep, unsimplified, with the occasional arrangement from an orchestral work. As Kataoka-sensei said, they may be young but there is no reason to have them play like babies.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2249137 - 03/19/14 11:39 PM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: keystring]
joshuadevine Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: keystring
While the recording is lovely, that is not what is in the notation and what the student will be playing.


This is an excellent point and gets at much of the reason why I am especially passionate about a project to organize a music curriculum based on harmonic complexity. The recording is a memory of a performance. The performance was an improvisation on a memory. A Memory which, in this case was recorded by Schubert a long time ago through the means of notation. Notation is only a tool (a precise tool) which enables us to remember something about sound and bring it into the present. Imagine this performance, understood entirely by ear. Does it have to be represented in notation to exist or even to be recreated? The goal of my notation project is to do exactly as you have said. to not represent what is in the recording. That is, what is in the recording is not in the notation. I don't want to represent sounds with precision. I want to represent the idea of the sound. The goal being to engage a students ear, and work with them in the present as we search to recreate the sounds. Hopefully all this will ease a students journey to a point of fluency with a rather complex system of notation.

Originally Posted By: keystring

What are your thoughts about the end of line 2 going into line 3 in terms of fingering or hand position? At the very end, are you intending students to move reach for a 6th?


Yes, I did intend students to move and reach for a 6th. I am resting in the hope that a student could learn this through the imitation of their teacher, and that they could rely on a good role model to help them through the physical process. Notation presents ideas, perhaps ideas that present challenges to their realization on an instrument. I see this as all part of the dynamic relationship between notation and sound. Often a composer has an idea for sound which will stretch the capabilities of notation, performer, and perhaps instrument. Why not encounter that lesson early? Perhaps it would change the way a young student conceives of the purpose of music notation.


Originally Posted By: keystring

What bothers me is that you have made assumptions about what the teachers in this forum do:
Wouldn't it make sense to first ask them what they do?


Quite right. My apologies. I admit I was rather shocked by AZNpiano's first response. I should have been more tactful in my second post (and my first). I understand that I made a gross and unnecessary generalization. I often think of a forum as a nondescript smorgasbord of unrelated voices, and I forget that there are forum regulars as well as an established group of voices that are already here. I do apologize. I really had no intention of so rudely intruding on your forum. I am genuinely interested in feedback on my project however, and in suggestions for new music for me to arrange. I will take more care in explaining my ideas and purposes more carefully in the future.

So, how do you approach the cultivation of a new student? Especially with regards to music literacy?


Originally Posted By: keystring

What do the students do with their left hand?


They play tonic and dominant chords. That is what the red and blue squiggles are.

Originally Posted By: keystring

I am uncomfortable about a 3-line staff depending on what you do with it afterward. Are you keeping students in C major for a long time? (I'm assuming you didn't really intend a beginner piece in Bb major.)


I quite understand this sentiment. In brief the progression goes
1) 3 line staff (LH realizes chord structures from peripheral glances at colored shapes
2) 5 line staff bracketed to a 1 line staff (LH still realizing colored shapes now appearing on the one line staff)
3) 5 line staff (with treble clef) bracketed to a 3 line staff with no clef, just "movable Do" notation
4) Standard grand staff (large and with colored notation)
5) Non colored standard grand staff notation (though I still love to let my students play with alto and tenor clef just to keep them on their toes).

I do intend for students to play in different keys. Hence the "movable Do" notation. Depending on their ability to sing and comprehend keyboard harmony, I have actually had some students traverse all 12 keys with tonic / dominant pieces by the time they reach level 4 or 5.

Originally Posted By: keystring

Above all, there are assumptions about the whats and hows of teaching.


Again, quite right. Perhaps the assumptions are about the whats and hows of the content being taught. The teaching is an expression of those assumption. But doesn't every teacher make assumptions about what they teach? Perhaps I just make different assumptions.

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#2249167 - 03/20/14 01:05 AM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: joshuadevine]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11657
Loc: Canada
Thank you for your explanations. As it is late I just have some quick questions. You have mentioned students so I assume that you teach. Have your students reached the point where they read music, and if so are they able to read music which they have not pre-heard, with some fluency? (Actual reading). Or is your system still in an earlier stage where you expect it will lead to fluent reading, but it's not at that stage yet with your students? I'm asking this after reading your explanation of your system.

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#2249345 - 03/20/14 08:13 AM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: keystring]
joshuadevine Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/14
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: keystring
Have your students reached the point where they read music, and if so are they able to read music which they have not pre-heard, with some fluency? (Actual reading). Or is your system still in an earlier stage where you expect it will lead to fluent reading,


Short answer: I have only used this "system" consistently with 4 recent students, and that only secondarily along side Piano Adventures. After about 1 year of study one of the students (she was 8 years old) was sight reading. I mean fluently reading, playing Piano Adventures at sight nearly perfectly before leaving the lesson. 3 - 4 pages a week by the time we got to Level 2A. I would give her difficult assignments from Masterwork Classics and other rep books and she would practice those and sight read piano adventures. The others did similarly, though none as well as her, they were head and shoulders above my other students, easily managing 2-3 pages a week in Piano Adventures by level 2A alongside occasional more difficult repertoire.

I have been bold enough to start a new student entirely on a diet of my own curriculum. An autistic child who is a challenging student. It has been two weeks, and he is already fluently reading all my "red level" music. I don't know if he is just quick or what... he surprised me last week by playing all of Ode to Joy with his hands together. The week previous I barely got to explain what the red and blue squiggles meant. We have a lot of work still to do, rhythms, tempos, expression and such, but I hope I can shape him slowly as we move along. In 5-10 weeks my goal is to have him reading a 5 line staff.


Long answer: I have spent the past seven years teaching children. By accident really. I am a composer and performer by training. But I really came to love it. And, I really came to be disgruntled with the curriculum at the first school I taught at (they used mostly Piano Adventures). Don't get me wrong, I love the Faber's and the music is often good for kids. But I was constantly baffled by the reliance on fingering, the way even the brightest children would be bamboozled by the grand staff, and the insistence on articulation through notation. I thought I was teaching the wrong way but after trying to learn from the best "Piano Adventurers" I took to taking new students through Alfred, Bastein, Michael Aaron or what ever other curriculum I could find. I tried to keep each student as stable as I could, sticking out their curriculum and studying hard to bring them through their studies with a good measure of success. It seemed as though 1 out of 20 students would thrive, and that only because they would explore the lesson book themselves, and be willing to try new things. The rest of the students just seemed to struggle with reading music constantly.

Years before this I sat in on Suzuki lessons for a few months and observed. When I first started teaching myself I suppose Suzuki had laid doubts in my mind about the necessity of giving such prominence to the music notation. I never wanted to go to far a field from teaching music literacy though. I feel it is the truly essential skill in our world of print. All these past seven years I have been making my own weird handouts and wild experimental kids music. Those materials were crude in the beginning but through experimentation I think I am arriving at a format that is helping me be a better teacher.

I was always searching for a way to get kids to play Piano Adventures intuitively. When I look at "Queen's Royal Entrance" on p. 40 of lesson 2A it pops off the page into my memory almost instantly because of the simplicity of its harmonic structure. Of course I thought initially "I can't expect that of kids". Though just before I left that school I had that girl who learned Piano Adventures + my weird notation. I remember the day I turned the page to the Queen's Royal Entrance and she sight read it, the same way I would have, through harmonic understanding. I realized "Perhaps I can expect that from kids". So that is what I am trying to do.

My old school also had a "Four Tiered" system. Every student had to pass Theory, Repertoire, Method, and Literacy. I puzzled for six years about how they arrived at that system.
Theory seemed to me a useless list of unordered scales and chords that did not relate to functional harmony. Repertoire was material equal in difficulty to the method books. Literacy was a random list of notation symbols for a student to "learn" (I always found students who had checked off the "sharp" definitively would still struggle to play the "sharp" in any given context of music). Method was... well, going through a method book.

I have adopted a new way of thinking in my teaching. Keyboard harmony (think the old concepts behind realizing a figured bass), sight reading (contextual interpretation of notation), and repertoire (play lots of music). That is why I am looking for pieces to arrange.

Looking forward to more discussion, and hopefully, as you get an idea for what I am after, I am open to suggestions for pieces to arrange so I don't spend my morning digging through music looking for suitable tonic/dominant pieces to arrange for my "Level red", which I am off to do now.


Edited by joshuadevine (03/20/14 08:22 AM)

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#2249361 - 03/20/14 08:43 AM Re: Songs using only tonic and dominiant chords [Re: joshuadevine]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11657
Loc: Canada
I see. Thx. There are a couple of variables in there. You had a method book in there (PA) which had its systematic approach in there, but it wasn't doing it for you, and as teacher you were more of its passive follower since they did have a system. Then you have the system that you developed going along with that in the more recent thing you added. There is a third variable - you began to shape the lessons according to how you understood music, and passing that on to the students. I think that third variable is very important.

Well, imagine that a teacher took your system without understanding it, and passively following it. The results would be hit and miss, or even a failure if s/he couldn't think like you. --- Imagine a reverse scenario: a teacher using material that is totally different from yours, but that teacher wants to create awareness in the student of the things that you do. He's actively teaching it, and shaping the lesson. This teacher will have results. It may even be that a teacher using extremely different material than you, may be teaching toward the same things you are, and get similar results.

I don't know if that wording is too complicated. I'm trying to say that what the teacher actually does, and why he does it, is going to be a big factor.

I did get what you were doing with your score yesterday. The squiggles matched in colour with the notes, and your "non-chord notes" were black.

Quote:
My old school also had a "Four Tiered" system. Every student had to pass Theory, Repertoire, Method, and Literacy. I puzzled for six years about how they arrived at that system.
Theory seemed to me a useless list of unordered scales and chords that did not relate to functional harmony. Repertoire was material equal in difficulty to the method books. Literacy was a random list of notation symbols for a student to "learn" (I always found students who had checked off the "sharp" definitively would still struggle to play the "sharp" in any given context of music). Method was... well, going through a method book.

I think a lot of teachers end up weaning themselves off of these books, or using them in their own way. Otoh, I've seen where it seems that the book itself leads, and the teacher is its follower. My first training is as a teacher, and back then, books were among the tools that we used, but they did not lead. (That may have changed in recent times). What method books do do, is that they set out some kind of order and skills. I know of teachers who collected a bunch of different books, studied what they were up to, took the best out of them, and gradually create their own set of materials and approach.

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