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#2250673 - 03/22/14 07:53 PM Re: What is a musician? How do you become a musician? [Re: BostonTeacher]
ShiverMeTimbres Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/14
Posts: 207
Originally Posted By: BostonTeacher
Here's a video that will make you all smile :
http://youtu.be/qTKEBygQic0


You, BostonTeacher, have won the thread. I love this video smile

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#2250760 - 03/23/14 12:18 AM Re: What is a musician? How do you become a musician? [Re: PianoStudent88]
Candywoman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 845
Saranoya
I wasn't speaking of accessibility to ordinary music lessons. I'm talking about special opportunities, for instance the opportunity to study with a composer like Nadia Boulanger, or to go to the Curtis Institute in Philadelphia, or to attend masterclasses of visiting musicians. These must be earned, which is assessed by very musical adjudicators who determine if somebody can make the best use of the opportunity. In formulating their opinion, the musicality of the student must enter into the discussion.



Edited by Candywoman (03/23/14 12:35 AM)

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#2250771 - 03/23/14 12:44 AM Re: What is a musician? How do you become a musician? [Re: Candywoman]
ShiverMeTimbres Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/14
Posts: 207
Originally Posted By: Candywoman
I'm talking about special opportunities, for instance the opportunity to study with a composer like Nadia Boulanger, or to go to the Curtis Institute in Philadelphia, or to attend masterclasses of visiting musicians.


I'm perfectly happy with institutions or private citizens having their own level of requirements before providing an education. However, bringing it back in-line with the thread, I personally do not associate the level of education that one has, to them being entitled to be labeled a musician.

I'm not saying you indicated this Candywoman, I'm just stating that I think Musician is too broad of a term to consider it to be focused in to only a select few.

You can have a socially perceived good musician or bad musician,
You can have an academically taught musician, or a self-taught musician.

I'm fine with someone, who has extreme knowledge in the area of music and can apply that knowledge to an instrument(s) being called a Virtuoso. That creates a rank system inside Musicians, just like any other trade.

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#2250787 - 03/23/14 01:38 AM Re: What is a musician? How do you become a musician? [Re: Candywoman]
Saranoya Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 622
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: Candywoman
I wasn't speaking of accessibility to ordinary music lessons.


Fair enough. I was under the impression that you were talking about music lessons in general because you were *replying* to an ordinary piano student who said he doesn't get why we need an exclusive definition of the term musician. Also you talked about how, in your own daily practice as a piano teacher, you teach certain students for financial reasons whom perhaps you'd rather not teach if you had the option of ditching them. But if you're talking about masterclass-level opportunities, then *of course* a certain selection should happen. I don't think you're going to get an argument from anyone about that. Or at least, in my opinion, you shouldn't.

If we're talking that level, though, then I have to agree with some of the earlier commenters on this thread (you among them, if I'm not mistaken): musicality doesn't seem to be a high enough priority. It's missing in some people who are nonetheless widely considered accomplished musicians. It seems to be missing in many concours competitors. That's a shame.

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#2251787 - 03/25/14 07:59 AM Re: What is a musician? How do you become a musician? [Re: BostonTeacher]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2442
Loc: Minneapolis, MN

thumb

Thank you BostonTeacher for that video! It's exactly what I needed today!
_________________________
Carl


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#2251799 - 03/25/14 08:30 AM Re: What is a musician? How do you become a musician? [Re: laguna_greg]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3207
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
No, I don't think one can. Either one is musical, in which case it can be developed, or one is not.


I think that there is often a stage in a student's development where they are focused on the mechanics of playing a difficult instrument. At that point they are really more of a pianist or trombonist or whatever than a musician.

It may even be a necessary step to master the craft.

But it is a step that most will get past.

So I don't think you should say a student is unmusical from a snapshot in time. They may be very musical but it is being suppressed by other factors, and will come out later.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2251839 - 03/25/14 10:40 AM Re: What is a musician? How do you become a musician? [Re: TimR]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11708
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
No, I don't think one can. Either one is musical, in which case it can be developed, or one is not.


I think that there is often a stage in a student's development where they are focused on the mechanics of playing a difficult instrument.

When I first read laguna greg's statement, I started to ask whether he taught beginners or only advanced students, in order to orient myself to that statement. I thought it was about beginners since he wrote about "developing" it. But before I could post the question, he wrote that he was thinking of students in competitions and festivals. So these would not be beginners or how he sees beginners, and it seems to involve other people's students that you might observe.

I'm with you, TimR and would go further. A student needs to learn the nitty gritties of playing regardless of talent. If everything is dashed off all the time, then something goes missing and it will probably show up at a more advanced level.

And then, the original question was "What is a musician?" It was not "Does talent exist?" Musicianship involves things that are done to the music, and a lot of that rides on skill and knowledge. Maybe an innate ability will allow a student to do more with those things, but they have to be taught.


Edited by keystring (03/25/14 10:45 AM)

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#2251983 - 03/25/14 04:58 PM Re: What is a musician? How do you become a musician? [Re: TimR]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4810
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: TimR

I think that there is often a stage in a student's development where they are focused on the mechanics of playing a difficult instrument. At that point they are really more of a pianist or trombonist or whatever than a musician.

That can be true of a fine musician who is struggling with a new instrument.

How can anyone sound like a musician, playing, without the skills mastered to allow it to happen?

And if you can't SOUND like a musician, will anyone believe you are? I don't think so.

Physical limitations will be perceived as lack of "sensitivity" and so on.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#2251989 - 03/25/14 05:11 PM Re: What is a musician? How do you become a musician? [Re: keystring]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4810
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: keystring

And then, the original question was "What is a musician?" It was not "Does talent exist?" Musicianship involves things that are done to the music, and a lot of that rides on skill and knowledge. Maybe an innate ability will allow a student to do more with those things, but they have to be taught.

That's correct.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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