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#2253459 - 03/28/14 10:48 AM RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music
Marko in Boston Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 879
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts

Good demo of features. Wish he demoed the the AP & EP piano sounds in detail a bit more without rhythms. Regardless, Scott Tibbs is damn good.



Edited by Marko in Boston (03/28/14 10:56 AM)
_________________________
KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | TRAYNOR K4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS ERIS 5 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD380 | K&M OMEGA

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#2253594 - 03/28/14 04:21 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Tried one very quickly in a shop. Sound and touch and especially the connection between both is really good. Nice board. Not really an eye catcher , but it's a workhorse and will do it's job very well. Tilted connections on the back are a bit ....; must bend way over the entire keyboard to plug something in/out or be able to see what the connections are. Also headphones out on the front of the instrument please ! Anyway - minor nitpicking - board is real nice.

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#2253627 - 03/28/14 05:31 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
I met Scott a couple of years ago when I bought my Jupiter. He seems like a great guy and his in-store demo was fantastic.
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2253646 - 03/28/14 06:14 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
@Hideki: Have you tried high res MIDI on your new Roland piano and perceived any benefit? I'm wondering how the RD800 or other new Rolands will perform as Pianoteq MIDI controllers when compared to the RD700. Also, aside from Pianoteq and archiving performances for the RD800, itself, I'm not sure what other applications presently use high res MIDI. And, finally, I don't know for sure that Roland's high res MIDI would be utilized by Pianoteq; I've not seen that discussed anywhere yet.
_________________________
Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX

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#2253732 - 03/28/14 10:32 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
Joe Garfield Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/13
Posts: 156
Loc: Ohio, USA
I saw a demo on Youtube, which made me go out and try the Roland before making my final decision on a DP. It compared the RD800 against the Kawai MP10.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc3RRGNCdE0

The RD800 is a very nice instrument. I really liked the piano sounds.

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#2255613 - 04/01/14 08:28 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
Marko in Boston Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 879
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Not Tibbs, but a very good demo. I like RD800's new APs. Very nice. Usable voices are a bonus.

_________________________
KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | TRAYNOR K4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS ERIS 5 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD380 | K&M OMEGA

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#2255637 - 04/01/14 09:16 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Yes these guys do good demos. Again as I've already posted, I was very impressed with my 90 minutes on it at GC last week. I know I've never spent that long on a Roland DP before in the store...so many things about it must've grabbed me. smile

I really should go to the trouble and schlep in my speakers and pre-amp to get a better sense of how this will sound as opposed to my AKG 240s. Everything can sound good through phones.

Like the acoustic bass. It sounded better here then I remember it last week. And that's an important feature for me as I'm considering this mainly for solo gigs where I need the drum tracks, play LH bass and sing.

The Wurli sounded better too. I thought that was the weakest of the EPs on first listen.

Strings @ 2:00 and the one Winwood-ish pad @ 7:07 sounded great too.

I don't expect it to take the place of my Nord, but again for solo gigs, this might be perfect for me. Really dug the drum sounds and the patterns. It didn't sound canned or have that cheese factor. Plus like I mentioned already in another thread :

"One thing very cool about the 800's drum patterns are - if you have the drum pattern window open - you can scroll down for multiple variations on the original loop, seamlessly, without any hiccups in the groove. The tempo stays constant. VERY great feature for gigs. Could not do that on the CP5".

I'd prefer to keep things simple having these internal drums then - getting an iPad/phone and trying to find out which drum apps work the best for all the different kind of tunes I do. Not to mention the learning curve with it all. Even being the low-tech guy I am, I pretty much had the 800 wired to do a gig on within the hour. I know I'd be futzing a lot longer on an IOS device. To add - I'm not so sure that's what's coming out of that iPad or phone is sonically going to be as rich & fat as what you hear in a *pro* keyboard of this high quality.

Most important - this is time that I'd rather be practicing the piano or working on my vocals with. wink cool
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

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#2256100 - 04/02/14 06:33 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
I finally sat down and played the RD-800 for an extended period of time. I was blown away, I have to say. I could not believe how damn good the Concert Grand sounded. I think it's brilliant Roland is now using their very own creation, the V-Piano Grand as a sample in their keyboards. It's the same thing Yamaha and Kawai do of course. The 800 is a huge step forward in sound vs the 700NX IMHO, the action was fantastic too. The thing really feels like an acoustic when played amongst a room full of DPs. I have no idea what it sounds like live, but it made the CP4 sound very dated. The CP4 still has that boxed in super synthetic Yamaha sound. I'm just not a fan of the tone. The CP4 does have an incredible action though. As good or better than the RD800. If they could just do something with the sound. The display in the RD800 is also quite nice. All in all I was very impressed with the RD800. I was playing the fast section of Rachmaninov's Prelude in C# Minor and had several people behind me stop and listen. It sounds very very convincing. I think the thing that surprised me is how real the sound behaves and the overall connection with the action. The newly added ability to tune each single note further takes away the reason to purchase the V-Piano. Kudos Roland.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#2256109 - 04/02/14 07:09 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: PianoZac]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 739
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
I finally sat down and played the RD-800 for an extended period of time. I was blown away, I have to say. I could not believe how damn good the Concert Grand sounded. I think it's brilliant Roland is now using their very own creation, the V-Piano Grand as a sample in their keyboards. It's the same thing Yamaha and Kawai do of course. The 800 is a huge step forward in sound vs the 700NX IMHO, the action was fantastic too. The thing really feels like an acoustic when played amongst a room full of DPs. I have no idea what it sounds like live, but it made the CP4 sound very dated. The CP4 still has that boxed in super synthetic Yamaha sound. I'm just not a fan of the tone. The CP4 does have an incredible action though. As good or better than the RD800. If they could just do something with the sound. The display in the RD800 is also quite nice. All in all I was very impressed with the RD800. I was playing the fast section of Rachmaninov's Prelude in C# Minor and had several people behind me stop and listen. It sounds very very convincing. I think the thing that surprised me is how real the sound behaves and the overall connection with the action. The newly added ability to tune each single note further takes away the reason to purchase the V-Piano. Kudos Roland.
I noticed you have a Nord Piano 2, which is shipping to me, as we speak. The RD800 was never on my radar, but I like to hear a comparison if you could. I only plan to gig with it.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2256158 - 04/02/14 10:04 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Hey 36251, you made the right choice. I still think the NP2 is the benchmark for all other stage pianos for piano centric players if you have one gigging battle axe. The weight, dimensions, sounds, flexibility, ease of use. Software updates, sample updates, build quality, etc. etc. etc. I wouldn't trade my Nord for any other stage piano. I would however love to add the RD800 for a home DP to practice a night with. It's incredible sounding and playing, but not still not my choice for gigging.

I stand by my opinion that anyone purchasing the Nord Piano 2 for a home DP should look elsewhere as there are other options better suited. But, for the gigging piano player, especially jazz, blues, rock players, the Nord Piano 2 is the best choice out there.
_________________________
Yamaha AvantGrand N1
Nord Piano 2


"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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#2256162 - 04/02/14 10:20 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 539
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
my impressions exactly same during my last trip to GC. I thought the RD 800 felt and sounded outstanding. I didn't think the CP4 came close.
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#2256193 - 04/03/14 01:48 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Roland really stepped it up with their new products. PHAIV is about as perfect as I could have hoped and the way it mates with the SN pianos really makes for a uniquely dynamic digital piano experience. I tried the RD800 today and thought it was great too. The LX-15e has been fantastic and the first digital piano that I truly enjoy playing.
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2256194 - 04/03/14 01:53 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: kippesc]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: kippesc
@Hideki: Have you tried high res MIDI on your new Roland piano and perceived any benefit? I'm wondering how the RD800 or other new Rolands will perform as Pianoteq MIDI controllers when compared to the RD700. Also, aside from Pianoteq and archiving performances for the RD800, itself, I'm not sure what other applications presently use high res MIDI. And, finally, I don't know for sure that Roland's high res MIDI would be utilized by Pianoteq; I've not seen that discussed anywhere yet.


Sorry, I missed this post. I haven't tried the high res MIDI. To be perfectly honest, I wasn't even aware of it. I'll take a look and see if I can test it with Pianoteq.

Are others taking advantage of the Roland wireless iPad applications? Playing music through the LX-15e wirelessly from my iPad has been a very convenient practice tool.
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2256203 - 04/03/14 03:55 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
In A Silent Way Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
I tried it too recently and I found the keyboard to still make a dull hollow sound that is only acceptable played through headphones. I know it's the Far West of Roland's keyboards that's on the RD-800 so I won't criticise further in that area. It may be very good, but it's still under the water. Let's say the texture surfaces, the delicate ivory and wood colour touches, are really beautiful.

Coming from a silent acoustic piano at home playing the sounds of the Integra-7, I just found there was nothing really new in the RD-800, the tone quality of the first pianos are about the same to each others as they are the same in the Integra-7, and sounding very similar to it too. Especially I had been unable to identify the V-Piano sample, and unable to find any novelty in the new upright sample.

But the pianos sound really nice for the SN series at least because the PCM older ones are rather very outdated, as opposed to the Integra-7 where the SRX cards still hold PCM pianos that are as sexy today as they were at first, or maybe more since we now have lots of comparison points in the software world.

The RD-800 has many options to edit and tune the piano tones and I would advice the buyers to check thoroughly the editing capabilities, because here as well similarly to the Integra-7 and I guess other Roland DP, the real character of the pianos samples are often hidden from the presets, and you can bring out much more out of the SN samples than there is upfront, provided that you correct the exaggerations of the most extreme tonal variations with a proper EQing in order to remain in the pleasant and acceptable boundaries of a good sounding piano. Without the EQing these tonal changes sound like caricatures, and again, without using these extra settings all the pianos in the RD-800 sound about the same paste, though a pleasing one. So check it out, as there are many parameters it can take time to find out, but it's really worth in order to find out what's really inside this DP, and you'd be surprised.

The other sounds in the RD-800 are similar to the Integra-7 too, it looks like a "best of the best of" and that's nice to have them. The drum loops are useful and sound good (quite compressed though) although very basic.

Overall it's a great entry to the world of Roland, and it can as well serve as a backing tool as much as a sound source for a computer based sequencer, and it's the same with any other Roland gear recently, they are very unified by the SN capabilities. For instance you can probably play the drums on a Vdrum kit from the RD-800 as much as you can do it with the Integra-7 and with the same basic tonal qualities that you find in the TD-30 high end drum sound module, if you accept a few compromises, as you can find the tonal qualities of the SN pianos of the RD-800 in the BK-9 or the FA-6 if you don't mind the keyboard and seek their other features. Buy one, get the main line of them all. Which is a good news. And which is a bad news too...

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#2256225 - 04/03/14 06:36 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: PianoZac]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 739
Originally Posted By: PianoZac
Hey 36251, you made the right choice. I still think the NP2 is the benchmark for all other stage pianos for piano centric players if you have one gigging battle axe. The weight, dimensions, sounds, flexibility, ease of use. Software updates, sample updates, build quality, etc. etc. etc. I wouldn't trade my Nord for any other stage piano. I would however love to add the RD800 for a home DP to practice a night with. It's incredible sounding and playing, but not still not my choice for gigging.

I stand by my opinion that anyone purchasing the Nord Piano 2 for a home DP should look elsewhere as there are other options better suited. But, for the gigging piano player, especially jazz, blues, rock players, the Nord Piano 2 is the best choice out there.
thanks
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2256511 - 04/03/14 08:54 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: In A Silent Way]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 268
Loc: White Rock, BC.
Originally Posted By: In A Silent Way

Coming from a silent acoustic piano at home playing the sounds of the Integra-7, I just found there was nothing really new in the RD-800, the tone quality of the first pianos are about the same to each others as they are the same in the Integra-7, and sounding very similar to it too. Especially I had been unable to identify the V-Piano sample, and unable to find any novelty in the new upright sample.


I have to clear this up for anyone who might take it to be the truth.

The pianos in the RD800 are completely and totally new. Different to the Integra-7.
The subjective quality is up for debate if you like, I'm ok with that.

But let's be clear that they are not the same SuperNatural tones. They are completely new.

The Original RD700NX Pianos are in there too. Those would be closer to the Integra 7 tones than the brand new Concert Piano tone and its variants. Concert Grand is patch number one, and is the V-Piano based SuperNatural tone.

Jay
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

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#2256535 - 04/03/14 09:47 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Jay Roland]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Hi Jay - question regarding the 800. Are the drum sounds and lot of the "other" sounds , like strings, organ, synth , etc. , the same as what's in the arranger BK-9 board ? I'm most concerned with the drum sounds and loops/patterns , along with the basses (for LH bass) for doing solo gigs.

Thanks.
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

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#2256549 - 04/03/14 10:14 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Dave Ferris]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 268
Loc: White Rock, BC.
Hey Dave,

The Drum loops are for the most part very good and useful. I like 80% of them and use them for just general jamming. They felt more like FP series than BK series to me. But the layout is awesome. They kind of go sequentially so you would have Rock-1 then Rock-2 right after it. Rock-2 is just a bit heavier. Rock-3 even heavier etc. Kind of like variations on an arranger board.

Can't confirm the PCM Wave data comes from Bk series though. With the exceptions of Grand Piano, Upright Piano, Various E. Pianos and VK Organs, the rest of the sounds on the RD800 are PCM based. There's some really cool Mellotron sounds in there. Strings Flutes and Choirs. Worth checking out.

I really like a couple of the Acoustic Bass sounds. Played properly they really do quite a good job.

Jay
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

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#2256559 - 04/03/14 10:32 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Thanks for all the clarification Jay. I know there are limitations in processing power which make it difficult to use SN across the board, but it kind of bummed me out to realize that none of the other sounds on the LX-15e were SN. It doesn't really matter for me because I have the Jupiter, but once you have access to the SN engine for things like acoustic bass, it's hard to look at the PCM sounds in the same light. That being said, the LX-15e is an amazing DP and the RD800 was equally impressive as a stage counterpart.



Edited by Hideki Matsui (04/03/14 10:34 PM)
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2256640 - 04/04/14 04:11 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
In A Silent Way Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
Quote:
The pianos in the RD800 are completely and totally new. Different to the Integra-7.


No doubt about the fact, it's just that : 1) they sound about the same (good) paste, same tonal quality all over with more or less brightness in response. That's why I couln't identify the V-Piano sample patch #1, it's about as good as the other pianos that are about the same sounding as the older ones. The real difference comes when you go down to the PCM pianos that are more 1990 (and some certainly are 90ies productions indeed). Same goes for the new upright, it's about as "grandesque" sounding as the others, and about as much as the older ones.

But these pianos are really good nonetheless, and if the edition goes as far as on the Integra (not in doubt either as there are more parameters on the RD-800), I think you can really make the real differences appear for instance between the grands and the upright. So for instance when Scott Tibbs says sthg like "here the knob turned all the way to the left you basically have an old upright", I think what he refers to mostly is the recording techniques used in the old days of the XXth century when uprights were the kings of the daily sessions jazz studios, but an upright is not that, it's not simply a recording technique.

When you compare to the Nord piano sounds, you can really identify each of their pianos to be very different from one another, in tone, behaviour, recording technique. On the RD-800 you have nothing like that, all the pianos sound approximately the same, you couldn't tell from one preset to another right on, you'd have to think about it and maybe you'd mistake one for another easily.

And once again, I really believe the presets are not really fair to the real tonal qualities of these piano samples, that reveal themselves more when tweaked quite a lot. What that means for the user by the way is that when/if she's tired of the same sounding piano club of the presets she can dive into the editing and reveal marvels she wouldn't suspect at first. I think it's a good thing for a gear to let dial in to discover things that are not mentioned on the box.

I give you just one example you could reproduce with your Roland SN DP provided it has at least these 3 parameters and an eq : tale any SN sample, reduce the "tone character" parameter to its minimum value, crank up the hammer noise to its max value, set the sympathetic resonance to 3/4 of its range, and then eq it so to reduce the extra volume given by the hammers on the high freq, retrieve the mid range loss across octaves 3
to 5, and reduce the bass freq so you don't get a disproportioned response. The piano is probably another entirely, it becomes intimate, closed miked, it feels older, smaller, maybe some hiss appears, details you didn't thought were in that sample, but it has something charming the original preset didn't offer. That's what I'm referring to, Roland kind of hides (unintentionally maybe) the real nature of its samples, and luckily tweaking the sounds help to discover the possibilities.

And once again as well, even as is out of the box, these preset pianos sound really good, very clean and convincing, to the point you can compare to the top software and decide for yourself if the extra time running a computer has become or not a waste of time. As far as I'm concerned, I think it has.

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#2256643 - 04/04/14 04:54 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
I'm not really sure what you were hearing, but I think the differences are very obvious and you would have to be really distracted to be unable to distinguish the various voices.

Of course on the Nord you have more pianos because they have sampled many different pianos. On the flip side, with the Nords, you don't get any of the benefits of the SN engine. Instead, you get a great gigging tool that can cover just about any sonic ground that keyboardist might need, but falls a little short as a refined digital piano. Yamaha, Kawai and Roland don't try to make their stage pianos cover all the bases. They stick with a few voices that make their brands identifiable and focus on creating refined actions that go beyond being "good enough."
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2256648 - 04/04/14 05:50 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
In A Silent Way Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
Quote:
you would have to be really distracted to be unable to distinguish the various voices.


Quote:
Yamaha, Kawai and Roland don't try to make their stage pianos cover all the bases. They stick with a few voices that make their brands identifiable


And I really read a contradiction between these 2 assumptions. I think the second tends to agree with what I said, all the RD-800 pianos sound approximately the same Roland sound, more or less bright. They sound good, but variety is also a refinement.

When it comes to Roland's action, from a pianist point of view I can tell you Roland's action is second to Kawai which is very good and which is although only good enough. Ask any pianist, you'd have the same answer. But if you go to the DP pianists they might as well answer the acoustic piano is flawed as it doesn't support the finest nuances the DP offers...

Anyway the Fatar action of the Nord is really not up to the finest Roland action, and the Nord Piano is a much more expansive DP. Besides nowadays indeed you can find variety at home with software pianos and there's no need to buy a Nord Piano for that, and as I said, as they are the Roland DPs actions are that good enough and fulfil any pianist need sonically that could be covered with more complicated/fastidious computer setups. From this practical point of view the RD-800 is a great choice for someone willing to play the piano on stage or at home.

Especially the pianist should pay attention to the fact that, contrary to his piano, she'll eventually get bored of the piano sound of his DP, to the point his creativity/productivity will drop dramatically. This annoying phenomenon can be cured by varying the DP sounds she plays/works on, so that the fatigue doesn't settle down. Following this perspective, the RD-800 offers great sounding pianos right out of the box, that are all neutral enough so that their character wouldn't let the fatigue install too soon. Meanwhile the inner samples offer a variety that resides under the hood, promising a way out of the fatigue over the months/years.

The more Roland will liberalize of its V-Piano engine, the more will be so of an un-tiring DP, and so that's no good for the sales, so...

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#2256848 - 04/04/14 05:33 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: In A Silent Way]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 268
Loc: White Rock, BC.

Quote:
Especially the pianist should pay attention to the fact that, contrary to his piano, she'll eventually get bored of the piano sound of his DP, to the point his creativity/productivity will drop dramatically. This annoying phenomenon can be cured by varying the DP sounds she plays/works on, so that the fatigue doesn't settle down.


If that were true, then every acoustic player's creativity and productivity would be stifled as well. And we know that that is not the case.

Different voices and editing features are not included on any DP to avoid creativity and productivity lapses. It's all part of the digital advantage. You can pick an bright tone for Rock, and more mellow for Bach.

Jay


Edited by Jay Roland (04/04/14 05:34 PM)
Edit Reason: for brevity
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

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#2256895 - 04/04/14 07:15 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1674
Loc: Portugal
In a silent way said: Especially the pianist should pay attention to the fact that, contrary to his piano, she'll eventually get bored of the piano sound of his DP, to the point his creativity/productivity will drop dramatically. This annoying phenomenon can be cured by varying the DP sounds she plays/works on, so that the fatigue doesn't settle down.

This is often claimed, one way or another, in this forum about the 'tedium factor' setting in with DPs. But this idea seems ill-founded, somehow. Certainly, DPs have a confined range of possible expressions compared with a real piano, but this isn't really the point in my opinion.

Because what is important about the piano is not the infinite range of sounds it's theoretically possible to obtain from a note - or even chord. What is important is the infinite range of expressions you can get from any sort of piano - digital or otherwise - by playing it inspired with different ideas, transformed into sound. Rendering a musical idea informed by different imagined intentions expressed through hands and fingers.

You would or could never run out of those things. The supposed predictability of any action you perform aids creativity, if anything.......unless you are experimenting and want something extraordinary to occur, which sometimes you do. But rarely.

It's a bit like getting tired of the rules of chess or football - sure it might happen, but it's rather beside the point.

I think people get tired of DP sounds simply because they can - it's cheap and easy to get new ones. This just is not possible on an AP - so, for most of the time, no one worries about it or even thinks about it.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2256949 - 04/04/14 10:05 PM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: In A Silent Way]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: In A Silent Way


And I really read a contradiction between these 2 assumptions. I think the second tends to agree with what I said, all the RD-800 pianos sound approximately the same Roland sound, more or less bright. They sound good, but variety is also a refinement.

When it comes to Roland's action, from a pianist point of view I can tell you Roland's action is second to Kawai which is very good and which is although only good enough. Ask any pianist, you'd have the same answer. But if you go to the DP pianists they might as well answer the acoustic piano is flawed as it doesn't support the finest nuances the DP offers...

Anyway the Fatar action of the Nord is really not up to the finest Roland action, and the Nord Piano is a much more expansive DP. Besides nowadays indeed you can find variety at home with software pianos and there's no need to buy a Nord Piano for that, and as I said, as they are the Roland DPs actions are that good enough and fulfil any pianist need sonically that could be covered with more complicated/fastidious computer setups. From this practical point of view the RD-800 is a great choice for someone willing to play the piano on stage or at home.

Especially the pianist should pay attention to the fact that, contrary to his piano, she'll eventually get bored of the piano sound of his DP, to the point his creativity/productivity will drop dramatically. This annoying phenomenon can be cured by varying the DP sounds she plays/works on, so that the fatigue doesn't settle down. Following this perspective, the RD-800 offers great sounding pianos right out of the box, that are all neutral enough so that their character wouldn't let the fatigue install too soon. Meanwhile the inner samples offer a variety that resides under the hood, promising a way out of the fatigue over the months/years.

The more Roland will liberalize of its V-Piano engine, the more will be so of an un-tiring DP, and so that's no good for the sales, so...


There is nothing contradictory about what I said. Nord offers a product that relies on a vast database of samples. You don't get the advanced technology like you have in Roland's SN engine nor do you get the refined action you get in a Kawai. What you do get, and pay for, is a comprehensive library of high quality sampled sounds that will benefit gigging musicians who often need a very specific sound depending on the context.

When it comes to their DPs, Roland, Kawai and Yamaha don't try to cover every conceivable piano sound out there. That doesn't mean they rely on a single sound as you might suggest. Yamaha might include a CFX and S6. Kawai might use an EX and RX. Roland might offer a "concert grand" and "ballade grand". The point is that there are obvious differences between the choices found on any of these DPs and characterizing the Roland voices as essentially being the same is completely off base. It isn't just a matter of more or less bright and I'm surprised any "pianist" would come to that conclusion.

I'm not sure why you think I should be excluded from the term "pianist," but I've been playing piano for over 35 years. While my practice schedule simply does not allow me to maintain the same skills I had in my youth, I can still make my way around a piano and am certainly sensitive to the subtleties of piano sounds and actions. Furthermore, not every pianist will tell you that Roland's action is second to Kawai's. I own a Shigeru Kawai and greatly respect Kawai's ability to emulate an acoustic action, but to think that every pianist will find the Kawai action superior is ridiculous. The Roland PHAIV is a magnificently engineered action that mates with the SN engine in a way that is uniquely precise and dynamic. Other "pianists" might feel differently.

I just don't understand your point regarding getting bored with a DP. If an instrument sounds and plays great, I appreciate what it offers and focus on making music.
_________________________
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Vintage Vibe 64
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#2256983 - 04/05/14 12:45 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Jay Roland]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
Hey Dave,

The Drum loops are for the most part very good and useful. I like 80% of them and use them for just general jamming. They felt more like FP series than BK series to me. But the layout is awesome. They kind of go sequentially so you would have Rock-1 then Rock-2 right after it. Rock-2 is just a bit heavier. Rock-3 even heavier etc. Kind of like variations on an arranger board.

Can't confirm the PCM Wave data comes from Bk series though. With the exceptions of Grand Piano, Upright Piano, Various E. Pianos and VK Organs, the rest of the sounds on the RD800 are PCM based. There's some really cool Mellotron sounds in there. Strings Flutes and Choirs. Worth checking out.

I really like a couple of the Acoustic Bass sounds. Played properly they really do quite a good job.

Jay


Thanks for getting back on that Jay.

Like I mentioned, I need to schlep in my gigging speakers and mixer (RCF TT08As & APB Dynasonics PropSpec 2U6M2S ) to the GC to hear how the 800 fares through speakers as opposed to phones.

Again, I was pretty knocked out with the new Concert Grand, a few of the Rhodes (they nailed the Fagen/Steely Dan phased rhodes) on first play 10 days ago.

I haven't played the newer FP series as they're not in any stores here in LA. So I have no reference point if the 800 drum sounds/loops are similar to those. In any case, the whole package together - drums, LH bass , new APs & EPs, updated action - again, kept me stimulated for over an hour and a half. In fact my wife kept calling me saying ...hey where are you ? laugh

Without a doubt this is the nicest DP from Roland I've ever played.


Edited by Dave Ferris (04/05/14 01:05 AM)
Edit Reason: added thought
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#2257052 - 04/05/14 06:39 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
In A Silent Way Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
Yes and I'm certain Dave Ferris is selling is acoustic piano already because it has only one sound he's tired of whereas the new Roland has over a thousand and a perfect piano action...

This is all so ridiculous, but ok, people never get tired of their DP sound and action, and makers offer new models every season only because there are so many more new pianists to buy them, all right, life is beautiful and digital artefacts are so true, so lifelike we just would want to buy the next to come and it will be more lifelike, more true, kind of surreal really...

I start realising I did all wrong, choosing to play Rhodes, Wurlitzer, Clavinet, Old synths, acoustic piano, I think from now on I'm going to get the real deal, I'm going to buy a Roland DP, because it's really all there is to it, a plastic mold, a few chips, rotary encoders, and the music is all there, at the push of a button!

I'm glad you opened my eyes, thank you, thank you so much!

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#2257063 - 04/05/14 07:17 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: In A Silent Way]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5017
A good pianist (as opposed to 'piano player' grin) makes the sound 'his own'. That's why when you hear different pianists play the same piece on the same acoustic piano, they sound different. And on a good DP, they'd sound different too.

Differences in voicing (in the classical sense of balancing the different notes within chords, bringing out of inner lines, how much the melody stands out against the accompaniment etc) as well as phrasing, the ebb and flow (rubato), the minute agogic hesitations, the 'breathing' etc, etc - all contribute towards what makes the piano such an inexhaustibly fascinating musical instrument for the accomplished pianist.

If a pianist is tired of his piano sound (assuming that his piano is suitably responsive), such that he seeks 'other' piano sounds on a regular basis, he's tired of playing the piano (to paraphrase Samuel Johnson).......

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#2257067 - 04/05/14 07:51 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: bennevis]
In A Silent Way Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
So what you're saying is the majority of the digital piano pianists are either bad pianists either pianists tired of playing the piano (which is relatively absurd since they never played the piano in the first place.)

This is all I can agree with, and I think the reason why they're either this or that (or this AND that) is the fact they never actually played the piano.

This is the point, pianists never get tired of playing the piano (unless they're tired pianists, ok), because they're actually playing the piano, which is a vibrating instrument.

Digital piano is a limited resource one can legitimately get tired of (unless it's a real need to move the instrument from a bar to another), and this is what happens, good pianists hardly play such artefacts (unless they have to move it), and the "other" pianists are constantly searching for a better digital piano (the very reason why such a market exist and such a forum section as well), realising not they may be happier pianists playing an acoustic piano first, and a acoustic piano with some digital capability as a compromise, leaving the digital piano for the rest of the "otherness" of the pianistic world.

But no, this is not how the digital pianist see the world obviously, they want a better digital piano, they want a digital piano that is more real than the real thing, and some even are never short of a sophism to get to this goal (which is probably musical at some point, but it's not clear hence considering the means...)

But today all of this misery is over really, because the pianists can (should) buy a Roland RD-800 and be assured they will get everything they need in that, since it is a real piano such as the piano has never been real before, but also it is the shadow of a piano, the alpha and the omega of the piano, and the reality itself behind the piano as being a real thing, and even much more than that! Alleluia!

I can see how wrong I was, poor me!, more and more on this, thank you, thank you so much helping me to decide what I really want for my life, i.e. the Supernatural piano! (not the real piano which is now obsolete as we can all understand without a doubt after all the best pianists have come here testifying in favour of the digital piano!)

(And I need to ditch my piano teacher as well because obviously he knows nothing about the piano! But it goes to the point I start suspecting there might be a plot around the world to make people believe concert pianists play grand pianos because they are better than digital pianos, which is completely the opposite of course, again, as we now have established with certainty!)

...

ok I'm off this thread anyway, never mind, have fun the way you please!

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#2257081 - 04/05/14 08:43 AM Re: RD800 Demo with Scott Tibbs at Kraft Music [Re: Marko in Boston]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
I don't have a whole lot to add except this, the RD-800 was an absolutely fantastic DP. The concert grand combined with the PHAIV action is astoundingly good. The best I've played for any non hybrid piano. I've not played the latest Kawais but I suspect they're right there with the Rolands. After I got home from playing the RD-800 I sat down on my RX-2 and thought to myself this is really great and there's so much complexity with acoustic as far as harmonics, vibrations in the wood/metal, etc etc etc, but DPs are going to continue to close the gap with acoustics. It's too bad that Yamaha doesn't invest in similar technology like the Roland SuperNatural technology because an AvantGrand with a modelled or sampled/modelled sound would be incredible. Digital pianos are a ways away from medium to high end acoustics, but I'd rather play a high end digital or certainly the AvantGrand than mid uprights and sub-6 foot grands.


Edited by PianoZac (04/05/14 08:45 AM)
_________________________
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"Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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