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#2253637 - 03/28/14 05:43 PM Query on suggested fingering
eejake52 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/26/13
Posts: 12
Loc: Invermere, BC
I know that some piano sheet music has numbers which correspond to the suggested fingering. But take a look at this one:
The Entertainer - Level 5
In the first measure, the 4 is above D6; BUT in the third measure, there is a circle around the 4 over D4. What does the circle mean?

Thanks,
Jake

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#2253662 - 03/28/14 07:22 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17809
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
I'm stumped. confused But I did want to say welcome to the forum! smile
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#2253689 - 03/28/14 08:25 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
earlofmar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1736
Loc: Australia
It's a strange system which obviously means something to the editor but is not standard practice
_________________________
I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
XXXV-6-XXX

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#2253719 - 03/28/14 09:49 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
hreichgott Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1234
Loc: western MA, USA
Looks like the circles are for anytime the hand has to move from one place to another.
Definitely not standard practice.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Working on: Schumann/Kinderszenen
Daily 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2, Pischna
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2253722 - 03/28/14 09:59 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: hreichgott]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2419
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Looks like the circles are for anytime the hand has to move from one place to another.
Definitely not standard practice.


That was my thought. But I saw enough places where they didn't have to move. And some where they probably would but weren't circled. In the end I gave up looking for a pattern!
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebesträume No. 3, S541
  • Schumann - Ende vom Lied, Opus 12.8
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

Kawai K3

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#2253742 - 03/28/14 11:02 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7716
Loc: New York City
I really don't like the fingering indicated here. Most of it is unnecessarily awkward. I would suggest ditching it.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2253748 - 03/28/14 11:19 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5353
Loc: Philadelphia
It's a poor fingering, and like Poly, I wouldn't follow it either. But to answer the 'circled' question, it almost seems like any time you have to cross over, or move your hand, the fingering is circled. But if that is the rule, they don't always follow it strictly, so I'm not sure what's going on there.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2253846 - 03/29/14 08:29 AM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12150
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Time to get out the white out and cover up all the fingering if you are intent on playing this version of the piece. It seems awkward, and often editions with too much fingering I ignore anyways. As pianists advance I think it's very important for them to develop their own ability to make fingering decisions.
_________________________
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2253978 - 03/29/14 05:06 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: Morodiene]
eejake52 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/26/13
Posts: 12
Loc: Invermere, BC
Monica K.
Actually I've been mostly lurking here for a year. My first post was in the Ecco Fatte thread.

earlofmar, hreichgott, Andy Platt, Polyphonist, and Derulux
Your consensus appears to be that it is obscure and in any event there is little or nothing of value in their suggestions.

Originally Posted By: Morodiene
I think it's very important for them to develop their own ability to make fingering decisions.

So, how do I go about learning that? So far, all the lessons I've had (eMedia - computer based), have had explicit fingering. It's one thing for me to just pick out the notes, but there are numerous options for fingering. Are there guidelines or basics?

Thanks to all,
Jake

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#2253982 - 03/29/14 05:22 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7716
Loc: New York City
Guideline #1: Economy of motion. Minimize movements and effort.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2253986 - 03/29/14 05:41 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
earlofmar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1736
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: eejake52

So far, all the lessons I've had (eMedia - computer based), have had explicit fingering. It's one thing for me to just pick out the notes, but there are numerous options for fingering. Are there guidelines or basics?




As Polyphonist said, economy of motion is key. However to expand a little further keep in mind all finger markings are suggestions only. In most cases I find markings have been well worked out but not everyone's hands are the same so occasionally I will amend fingerings. Changes in hand position and stretches have to be comfortable and natural so don't be afraid to change a fingering to something that feels good to you.
_________________________
I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
XXXV-6-XXX

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#2253992 - 03/29/14 06:29 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: earlofmar]
eejake52 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/26/13
Posts: 12
Loc: Invermere, BC
Continuing on in the same score, there is only one section that had me baffled. So, keeping in mind the advice above, here is what I came up with:



Any comments on the fingering, or the process of figuring the finger, are welcome.

Jake




Edited by eejake52 (03/29/14 07:16 PM)

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#2254045 - 03/29/14 08:43 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2419
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: eejake52
Continuing on in the same score, there is only one section that had me baffled. So, keeping in mind the advice above, here is what I came up with:



Any comments on the fingering, or the process of figuring the finger, are welcome.

Jake



I would play the third measure as 1-2-4-5 and back down the same way. No need to move the hand and, unless you have very small hands that standard arpeggio fingering should do the trick. I also wouldn't move the thumb in the fourth measure. No reason to use all your fingers, plus the thumb is a "heavy" finger and using it often causes unwanted accents which spoil the melody.

To add to advice on how to develop good fingering, those scales and arpeggios have a purpose in figuring out standard fingering!
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebesträume No. 3, S541
  • Schumann - Ende vom Lied, Opus 12.8
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

Kawai K3

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#2254418 - 03/30/14 07:15 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
Beth_Frances Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/12
Posts: 200
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
By the looks of it, the circles are every time you have to cross under or over (thumb under hand, or finger over thumb, like when you play scales). It's to point out that you need to change hand positions there, so you don't just put down that finger number staying in that hand position, rather than noticing the direction the notes are moving in.

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#2254420 - 03/30/14 07:17 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
Beth_Frances Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/12
Posts: 200
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Sorry that was looking at the bit of music that was shared - following the link in the original post, I have no idea what the circled fingerings are about!!!

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#2255069 - 03/31/14 10:04 PM Re: Query on suggested fingering [Re: eejake52]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1570
Loc: Reseda, California
I do all my own fingerings in MuseScore, which gives you both plain and circled numbers. I use mostly the plain, and circled numbers only for difficult places. It's quite subjective, no hard and fast rules.
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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