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#2254892 - 03/31/14 04:04 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 381
Loc: Poland
Today I had the real please of playing the Kawais top digitals. Firstly I sat on the CA15, touched it, and thought ( after year of not touching good grand, only many digitals and crappy uprights) WOW IT FEELS LIKE A GRAND! However, I didn't like the sound was coming out from the piano, but the piano was standing in the middle of the room, nowhere near any wall. I didn't liked the sound much - I mean, I was impressed how it sound compared to other digitals I have played before, and I was amazed by its reality. Open and bright bass, good middles, however, the soprans. The is good sustain, but the were just kind of... Like covered a bit with a. Blanked... Missing the light and glory of real good grand.

After I sat at the Ca95. Th positioning not well as well, but sounded much better. And the keyboard - I need to say that it was very strange - the middle ones a bit bouncy like Roland, the highs and lows more in the ca15 manner. Can it be due to the fact of playing? I don't know, this is demo instrument.

However, I need to tell you, that if CA15 would have the audio in, I would buy it and play some VST instruments on this and I would be in the piano heaven. Unfortunately, I have to buy the CA65 to use this, or go another makers. Ech, what a pity that Kawai did not included this audio option to the CA15 frown

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#2254902 - 03/31/14 04:22 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1682
Loc: Portugal
I think the matter of Roland keyboard actions as Essbrace says above here. Exactly! But, whether you like that action or not is another matter - it seems to divide people like Marmite or Margaret Thatcher.

In any case, Jay Roland has confirmed this by saying the differences between PHAIII and Ivory Feel-S is in the cosmetic make up or the keys, as is the difference between PHAIV Concert and PHAIV Premium. They are mechanically the same.

Roland's Ivory Feel-G is different in weight and feel, though, and is made with stage work & gigging mind.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2254917 - 03/31/14 04:48 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: toddy]
Digitalguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 428
Loc: Switzerland
The illusion of different feel is then entirely due to different key surface / piano structure, and, in the case of V-Piano, sound engine. And yes Ivory feel G is very different, but is also very different from the PHA alpha II of FP4 (I have read people saying Ivory feel G is lighter than Ivory feel S / PHA III, probably thinking about the action of FP4).
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2254939 - 03/31/14 05:13 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 375
Loc: Dorset, England
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac

You buy a digital to do the things an acoustic cannot.


That wasn't actually my reasoning for buying a digital at all, although it may be yours.
I bought a digital to be as close to an acoustic as I could get it without the problems of owning an acoustic, although I do also own an old Hirsch upright.

Originally Posted By: MacMacMac

You don't buy a digital for fine piano sound or feel.


Those are the very reasons I chose a Roland RD700NX, because it felt and sounded so like a real concert grand. Now I fully understand that others may disagree with me but, and this is the important thing, I bought it for ME and MY perceptions, not because of what others may think.
As such I am perfectly satisfied with my electric piano.

Yes, I would love a Bosendorfer 290 Imperial, just as I would love an Aston Martin and a luxurious villa in Tuscany. But for what I want, need and can afford, and those are three massive compromises from the ideal, the Roland is a piano the like of which I never thought I would be lucky enough to sit at. (My old Mazda 323 Estate car still serves adequately and my house in Dorset is fine too)

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#2254944 - 03/31/14 05:25 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: EssBrace]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 243
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
Roland itself gives different names PHAIII, PHAIII Ivory Feel, PHAIII Ivory feel S, Ivory feel S (still PHAIII according to the piano seller I talked to). I haven't played all the possible implementations but some of them and not all side by side, but talking to other people they have confirmed my impression. RD700 fells a bit firmer than either fp-7f / fp-80 (each with slightly different PHAIII) and V-piano slightly firmer than RD700. However with V-piano it's difficult to compare as it's a completely different instrument and it can be just an illusion... However, the same impression is confirmed by the piano dealers I have talked to...
Maybe Jay from Roland can tell us which PHAIII are really the same and which are not interchangable...


I think you are completely wrong. Yes, Roland uses different nomenclature "ivory feel', ivory feel s" etc but that all relates to key surface, NOT the actual hammer mechanics. I am absolutely sure that PHA-III actions, regardless of their exact name are identical in terms of the pure mechanics. Any perceived differences are due to the actions being mounted in different structures and/or due to differences in sound engine response to key pressure. I say this as a previous owner of V-Piano, RD-700GX, FP7F and HP-307.

I also believe that purely in terms of mechanics PHA-II is the same. But PHA-III allows recognition of much faster repetition due to the different sensor arrangement.

All the Roland actions are nimble and responsive. Slightly lighter than average and slightly noisier than average.


I gave a Roland LX15 a decent try for the first time today in a shop and was impressed with the action. I then tried the FP-80 hoping that it would feel pretty much the same in a much cheaper smaller form but it really didn't. I didn't try the FP-80 for long but it felt like a simpler lower quality action in comparison.

These are both PHAIII actions I believe.


Edited by Enthusiast (03/31/14 05:27 PM)

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#2254981 - 03/31/14 06:42 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: EssBrace]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 276
Loc: White Rock, BC.
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
Roland itself gives different names PHAIII, PHAIII Ivory Feel, PHAIII Ivory feel S, Ivory feel S (still PHAIII according to the piano seller I talked to). I haven't played all the possible implementations but some of them and not all side by side, but talking to other people they have confirmed my impression. RD700 fells a bit firmer than either fp-7f / fp-80 (each with slightly different PHAIII) and V-piano slightly firmer than RD700. However with V-piano it's difficult to compare as it's a completely different instrument and it can be just an illusion... However, the same impression is confirmed by the piano dealers I have talked to...
Maybe Jay from Roland can tell us which PHAIII are really the same and which are not interchangable...


I think you are completely wrong. Yes, Roland uses different nomenclature "ivory feel', ivory feel s" etc but that all relates to key surface, NOT the actual hammer mechanics. I am absolutely sure that PHA-III actions, regardless of their exact name are identical in terms of the pure mechanics. Any perceived differences are due to the actions being mounted in different structures and/or due to differences in sound engine response to key pressure. I say this as a previous owner of V-Piano, RD-700GX, FP7F and HP-307.

I also believe that purely in terms of mechanics PHA-II is the same. But PHA-III allows recognition of much faster repetition due to the different sensor arrangement.

All the Roland actions are nimble and responsive. Slightly lighter than average and slightly noisier than average.


There's nothing left for me to say.

Summed up beautifully.

Jay
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

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#2254997 - 03/31/14 07:44 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: EssBrace]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9141
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I think you are completely wrong...Any perceived differences are due to the actions being mounted in different structures and/or due to differences in sound engine response to key pressure.


Well said Steve.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2254998 - 03/31/14 07:45 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Jay Roland]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9141
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
Originally Posted By: EssBrace

There's nothing left for me to say.

Summed up beautifully.

Jay


wink
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2255002 - 03/31/14 07:52 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Enthusiast]
Digitalguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 428
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Enthusiast


I gave a Roland LX15 a decent try for the first time today in a shop and was impressed with the action. I then tried the FP-80 hoping that it would feel pretty much the same in a much cheaper smaller form but it really didn't. I didn't try the FP-80 for long but it felt like a simpler lower quality action in comparison.

These are both PHAIII actions I believe.


That's just an illusion, apparently...
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2255004 - 03/31/14 07:55 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1682
Loc: Portugal
That's just an illusion, apparently...

This one just runs and runs. Me? I've ordered a bucket of popcorn.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2255010 - 03/31/14 08:18 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Digitalguy]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9141
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
That's just an illusion, apparently...


Not necessarily.

The previous generation PHAIII action utilised by the FP-7F, RD-700NX, and V-Piano would appear to be the same. However the keyboard action utilised by the FP-80 and LX-15e may well be different.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2255014 - 03/31/14 08:24 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
Rachel J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 325
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Excellent points.

I have recently begun using a pretty high end digital piano for night time practice, though, and for that (practicing when others are sleeping) it is indispensable. I use it in conjunction with a great virtual piano software package, and I am able to get a lot of great work done on it. In my experience it is more responsive than any upright I've ever played.

I'm lucky enough to also have a Steinway L, too though.


Edited by Rachel J (03/31/14 08:24 PM)

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#2255017 - 03/31/14 08:33 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Kawai James]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1682
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
That's just an illusion, apparently...


Not necessarily.

The previous generation PHAIII action utilised by the FP-7F, RD-700NX, and V-Piano would appear to be the same. However the keyboard action utilised by the FP-80 and LX-15e may well be different.

Cheers,
James
x


But that doesn't apply here. Enthusiast claims to have found the LX15 and the FP 80 actions quite different.

However, both those pianos use what Essbrace has just said is the same action under a different name: PHA III Ivory Feel Keyboard with Escapement for the one and Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement for the other.

Jay Roland has just said that Essbrace is right. So yes, any perceived difference between them is indeed an illusion, apparently.

As I say, this one keeps running wink
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2255029 - 03/31/14 09:08 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: toddy]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
The perceived differences in how the keyboard feels from instrument to instrument is not an illusion. People can't separate the mechanics of the action from the surrounding materials that support the action. If you mount an action to a pillow I'm sure it will feel different than the identical action mounted to a steel beam. Just because someone loves how the Roland action feels on the LX-15 doesn't mean that feel will translate to a 35lb stage piano made of entirely different supporting material. You have to test the action on the keyboard you intend to buy if you really want to know whether or not it will be to your liking. Even the simple addition of some felt makes the PHAIV feel different than the PHAIII.

Originally Posted By: toddy
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
That's just an illusion, apparently...


Not necessarily.

The previous generation PHAIII action utilised by the FP-7F, RD-700NX, and V-Piano would appear to be the same. However the keyboard action utilised by the FP-80 and LX-15e may well be different.

Cheers,
James
x


But that doesn't apply here. Enthusiast claims to have found the LX15 and the FP 80 actions quite different.

However, both those pianos use what Essbrace has just said is the same action under a different name: PHA III Ivory Feel Keyboard with Escapement for the one and Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement for the other.

Jay Roland has just said that Essbrace is right. So yes, any perceived difference between them is indeed an illusion, apparently.

As I say, this one keeps running wink
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2255035 - 03/31/14 09:19 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1682
Loc: Portugal
Hideki Matsui said: The perceived differences in how the keyboard feels from instrument to instrument is not an illusion. People can't separate the mechanics of the action from the surrounding materials that support the action.

Well maybe, but I would describe that as more illusory than substantial, since what we're talking about here us the keyboard action - not all the surrounding paraphernalia which really will have a negligible influence on the action and the player's real engagement with the actual keys.

These differences, if they exist at all in a substantial sense, would be extremely marginal, surely.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2255040 - 03/31/14 09:28 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: toddy]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 243
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: toddy
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
That's just an illusion, apparently...


Not necessarily.

The previous generation PHAIII action utilised by the FP-7F, RD-700NX, and V-Piano would appear to be the same. However the keyboard action utilised by the FP-80 and LX-15e may well be different.

Cheers,
James
x


But that doesn't apply here. Enthusiast claims to have found the LX15 and the FP 80 actions quite different.


Yes that's right it was the LX15 with PHAIII action. I checked and it was on clearance sale presumably because the newer LX15e needed to put on display.

I didn't play the FP-80 for long but I could feel a very noticeable difference. If anyone else has tried these two models back to back I'd be interested to hear opinions. I didn't really notice that sort of difference between the CA95, CS10 and MP11 in that shop.

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#2255049 - 03/31/14 09:37 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9141
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
May I ask which shop you visited, Enthusiast?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2255052 - 03/31/14 09:42 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: toddy]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: toddy
Hideki Matsui said: The perceived differences in how the keyboard feels from instrument to instrument is not an illusion. People can't separate the mechanics of the action from the surrounding materials that support the action.

Well maybe, but I would describe that as more illusory than substantial, since what we're talking about here us the keyboard action - not all the surrounding paraphernalia which really will have a negligible influence on the action and the player's real engagement with the actual keys.

These differences, if they exist at all in a substantial sense, would be extremely marginal, surely.


So the felt added to the PHAIV on the LX-15e has made a negligible difference when compared to the PHAIII on the LX-15? I think you would have to have hammer hands to not feel the difference.

People are going to have varying levels of sensitivity to subtle differences. While you might find differences negligible, that same difference might feel significant to someone else. I don't think chalking it up to illusion is the answer nor do I think EssBrace or Jay Roland suggested as much.

Without making any assumptions about your skill level, I will also note that someone like Martha Argerich will most likely be more sensitive to subtle differences than a beginner with little control over dynamics.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (03/31/14 10:02 PM)
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#2255138 - 04/01/14 02:27 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Kawai James]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 276
Loc: White Rock, BC.
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
That's just an illusion, apparently...


Not necessarily.

The previous generation PHAIII action utilised by the FP-7F, RD-700NX, and V-Piano would appear to be the same. However the keyboard action utilised by the FP-80 and LX-15e may well be different.

Cheers,
James
x


For clarification. The FP-80 uses PHA-3 (Ivory Feel S version) and the LX-15e employs the newer PHA-4 Concert. These two variants will feel markedly different to anyone familiar with a quality digital piano action.

Jay
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

Top
#2255144 - 04/01/14 02:49 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Jay Roland]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9141
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Thank you Jay!

Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
The FP-80 uses PHA-3 (Ivory Feel S version)


May I ask if this is different to the FP-7F's keyboard action?

Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
...the LX-15e employs the newer PHA-4 Concert.


May I ask how this is different to the (original, i.e. without the 'e') LX-15's keyboard action?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2255172 - 04/01/14 06:54 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Hideki Matsui]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1682
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui

So the felt added to the PHAIV on the LX-15e has made a negligible difference when compared to the PHAIII on the LX-15? I think you would have to have hammer hands to not feel the difference.


I haven't actually commented on the PHAIV at all since I've never tried one. I am looking forward to doing so, though.


Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
People are going to have varying levels of sensitivity to subtle differences. While you might find differences negligible, that same difference might feel significant to someone else. I don't think chalking it up to illusion is the answer nor do I think EssBrace or Jay Roland suggested as much.


I agree, the word 'illusion' is not a positive one. Essbrace used the words 'perceived differences'.

Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Without making any assumptions about your skill level, I will also note that someone like Martha Argerich will most likely be more sensitive to subtle differences than a beginner with little control over dynamics.


Evidently a competent pianist will have a much more developed sensitivity to the feel and response of the keys than a beginner. But I very much doubt that a great pianist would pay so much minute attention to these differences as we do.

Regarding digital pianos, from the comments I've read and seen, professional performing pianists' criticisms are more concerned with the limits and gradation of expression that digital pianos are able to deliver.

The differences between various makers, models and forms of acoustic pianos - even those of above reasonable level of quality - vary far more than the differences between those of the main DP manufactures. These differences are (in my opinion) relatively slight.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2255180 - 04/01/14 07:38 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Kawai James]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 243
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
May I ask which shop you visited, Enthusiast?

Cheers,
James
x


It was Rose Morris in London. I was also in Yamaha Music London (formerly Chappell of Bond Street) just before. Both have a treasure trove of DP's, Keyboards and workstations to try and don't seem to mind you spending ages there. In addition to those I mentioned I also had a go on the HP508, RD800, CP4, CVP609, Avantgrands and a silent piano. That was all after playing on a S6 Grand for an hour so good fun. There's also a shop specializing in Casio next door to Rose Morris and the Steinway Hall among others not far from there so the opportunities for trying both DPs and APs there are excellent.

I really liked feel of the b3e SG2 silent piano. Seemed better than the NU1 Avantgrand.

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#2255303 - 04/01/14 11:57 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Kawai James]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 276
Loc: White Rock, BC.
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Thank you Jay!

Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
The FP-80 uses PHA-3 (Ivory Feel S version)


May I ask if this is different to the FP-7F's keyboard action?

Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
...the LX-15e employs the newer PHA-4 Concert.


May I ask how this is different to the (original, i.e. without the 'e') LX-15's keyboard action?

Cheers,
James
x


There's no physical difference in the action between the FP-7F and FP-80.

In the LX-15e, the PHA-4 Concert (and Premium) have decreased the mechanical thump that all digital actions make to Varying degrees. This was accomplished through a couple of design and material enhancements within the action.

I personally find the initial throw of the keys to have a TINY bit more weight, and the point at which the keybed bottoms is softer than the PHA-3. I haven't actually measured the down weight to see what the difference is. Like I've said before, specs don't matter as much as sound and feel.

All the new PHA-4 equipped pianos also employ a similar technology to the V-Piano, in that there is actually a separate processor scanning the keybed and offering 100 times the resolution that PHA-3 was able to.
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

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#2255338 - 04/01/14 01:13 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
Joe Garfield Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/13
Posts: 156
Loc: Ohio, USA
This is a good reminder thread. I started out trying to find a digital that would emulate an acoustic very well. I was dissatisfied with most. I then started looking at acoustic pianos, and for $2000 could get 'garbage, for $3500 could get 'barely acceptable' and really needed to spend $5500 on a used upright to get half way to what I really wanted. At the same time I accepted that the digital will never be an acoustic, and finally started to overlook some of the differences.

I ended up with a Kawai MP10. So far, I really like the feel and sound. It is not the same as having an acoustic piano in the room, but it sounds good and feels good to play, and certainly is better than nothing.

Acoustic pianos are like furniture in some ways - they are big and heavy and you will end up looking at it every day. Because of that, it becomes a major decision to a lot of people. My house is small so I feel that I need to carefully consider what I get and where I put it.

That being said, I find that the digitals that try to replicate the action of an acoustic are more enjoyable to play. Each piano feels different, whether it's acoustic or digital.

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#2255580 - 04/01/14 07:26 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Jay Roland]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 243
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Thank you Jay!

Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
The FP-80 uses PHA-3 (Ivory Feel S version)


May I ask if this is different to the FP-7F's keyboard action?

Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
...the LX-15e employs the newer PHA-4 Concert.


May I ask how this is different to the (original, i.e. without the 'e') LX-15's keyboard action?

Cheers,
James
x

All the new PHA-4 equipped pianos also employ a similar technology to the V-Piano, in that there is actually a separate processor scanning the keybed and offering 100 times the resolution that PHA-3 was able to.


What does that mean exactly? What effect does it have?

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#2255601 - 04/01/14 08:05 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Enthusiast]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 276
Loc: White Rock, BC.
Quote:

All the new PHA-4 equipped pianos also employ a similar technology to the V-Piano, in that there is actually a separate processor scanning the keybed and offering 100 times the resolution that PHA-3 was able to.


Quote:
What does that mean exactly? What effect does it have?


Basically what that means is that the separate keybed processor is able to take care of reading the actual keystrokes and feeds the sound engine the most accurate possible data so expression and dynamics is always exactly what the player wants.

Anything that eases load on the sound engine so it can just make the sound is a good thing, and I'm glad that this has been included in the new series.

These pianos have to do a lot of instantaneous calculations to create the sound that they do, so taking some of that load off of the sound engine was a smart design decision. Especially with the updated SuperNatural engine doing even more than the previous one did in terms of nuance and resonance.

Anything with a PHA-4 action will employ this processor and will allow for greater sensing of the inputs of the player.

In practical application, I've found that I've been able to really dig the tone out of the piano and found it really responds incredibly well to all my playing inputs.

I've spent a LOT of time the last couple of days on the RD800 and HP508. I'm preparing to do a clinic event in Southern Alberta this weekend. Every time I sit down, I enjoy them more and more.

I'm hoping my boss will allow me to use the HP508 at home. If not, there's a beauty DP-90Se-PW (Polished white) that I may ask for as well if it is still around when I get back from Alberta.



Edited by Jay Roland (04/01/14 08:13 PM)
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

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#2255750 - 04/02/14 02:42 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9141
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Thank you for your explanations Jay.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2255761 - 04/02/14 03:13 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Enthusiast]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9141
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Enthusiast
It was Rose Morris in London. I was also in Yamaha Music London (formerly Chappell of Bond Street) just before. Both have a treasure trove of DP's, Keyboards and workstations to try and don't seem to mind you spending ages there. In addition to those I mentioned I also had a go on the HP508, RD800, CP4, CVP609, Avantgrands and a silent piano. That was all after playing on a S6 Grand for an hour so good fun. There's also a shop specializing in Casio next door to Rose Morris and the Steinway Hall among others not far from there so the opportunities for trying both DPs and APs there are excellent.


Wow, you're lucky to have access to such a great selection of instruments!
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2260849 - 04/12/14 09:44 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
internetizen Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/13
Posts: 1
I bought my LX15 on mid July 2013 and am very upset to find out that the newer LX15e has a better and less noisy keyboard. After a month or two playing with that at night, my wife and son complained the thump noise was too loud and wake them up...since that I seldom touch my piano as I couldn't only find time to play at night. My $6K was a big waste.

Wish I knew the LX15e would come in Jan2104, I would have had waited for just few more month for a quieter keyboard...

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#2260853 - 04/12/14 09:59 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: internetizen]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11900
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: internetizen
I bought my LX15 on mid July 2013 and am very upset to find out that the newer LX15e has a better and less noisy keyboard. After a month or two playing with that at night, my wife and son complained the thump noise was too loud and wake them up...since that I seldom touch my piano as I couldn't only find time to play at night. My $6K was a big waste.

Wish I knew the LX15e would come in Jan2104, I would have had waited for just few more month for a quieter keyboard...

I would try to do some sound-dampening treatments to your room. There are relatively cheap ways of helping to reduce this to those in the next room. There will always be the next best thing right around the corner, and not much you can do about that. But other than that, do you like your LX15? If so, try to make it work, if not, cut your losses and sell it while it's still under warranty and can get a decent price and look at other instruments you can buy instead.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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