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#2254538 - 03/30/14 10:18 PM My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4110
I would like to share my experience between my grand piano, digital piano, and upright piano and hope it can help some of you in similar situations.

As a preface, I got a degree in classical piano performance - and at home I had a 4"11 Yamaha grand piano.

After moving, I left that piano at home and ended up buying a Roland FP7F digital piano. Recently, I got rid of that and bought a Steinway 1098 upright.

First, let's address the Roland FP7F. I am going to get right down to it: It has a nice touch, and a good enough sound all on its own, but compare it to any decent acoustic piano and it just is not in the same world.

I think it's really more appropriate for a casual player, and not a more serious classical player who wants to fully develop touch, tone, etc. It has its limitations in that regard and I would recommend a good quality upright if you could swing the price difference.

Now, the grand vs upright. I will make it simple. My Yamaha grand has a faster touch and response, which also makes dynamic control a bit easier.

Having said that, the 4"11 size grand does not sound good. It sounds metallic, dim, and overall not pleasant.

The Steinway 1098 upright in comparison was a great revelation to me - a very live, warm rich sound and good action for an upright. The sound really jumps out right at you - and has a more ringing sound to it.

So if you put 2 and 2 together, you come to the conclusion that a larger, good quality grand piano is really ideal. But you knew that already.

The second conclusion - if you're a serious player, I'd avoid a digital piano and just find a good upright. I got my used Steinway in great condition for around $5,000, which is not unreasonable when many digital pianos are near that price. (My Roland FP7F with pedals and stand was almost $2500 alone)

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#2254582 - 03/30/14 11:02 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: North Carolina
You points seem obvious, but they bear repeating.
- Small baby grands don't sound very good.
- Good uprights do.
- Digital pianos do not.
The DPBSD thread offers technical explanation of a few of the shortcomings exhibited by digital pianos. But the bare ear is adequate. Digital pianos are a pale imitation of the real thing.

You buy a digital to do the things an acoustic cannot.
You don't buy a digital for fine piano sound or feel.

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#2254587 - 03/30/14 11:39 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3599
Loc: Northern England.
You buy a car to do the things a pony and trap cannot.
You don`t buy a car to interact with the horse . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2254624 - 03/31/14 02:11 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: MacMacMac]
Kos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 77
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac

You don't buy a digital for fine piano sound or feel.


Now if someone could just explain that to DP marketing departments smile
_________________________
"There is nothing to piano playing besides producing the appropriate velocities on the appropriate keys at the appropriate time" (c) qvfarns

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#2254638 - 03/31/14 02:57 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: peterws]
Marco M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 451
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: peterws
You buy a car to do the things a pony and trap cannot.
You don`t buy a car to interact with the horse . . .


That´s a good one. smile

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#2254651 - 03/31/14 04:10 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
jarosujo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 237
Loc: Slovakia
You buy digital because of neighbors.
_________________________
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Kawai CL-36
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#2254683 - 03/31/14 06:29 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 742
My choice would be the grand. I owned a 1098. Granted it was used, so maybe I had a bad one, but that thing was way to bright, even after I would get hammers voiced. I finally moved up to a Steinway K. That was a beautiful sounding instrument but got tired of playing upright action.

I could probably find room in my tiny house (325 sq ft per floor,) for that 4'11" but then I heard of AG here and I've been happily ever after although I'm sure the grand would be nice if it stayed in tune.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2254684 - 03/31/14 06:32 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
Lester Burnham Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 249
I can't help but think you miss out on why some people buy digital pianos - convenience, and other more practical things - slient playing / practice, limited space, don't require tuning or being anything like as concerned about the environment situation it's in.

The question, money, space and predisposition all equal, would be to have both. But then, invariably, things are not all equal.

I have an acoustic piano, a digital piano, and a keyboard. All have their place. The digital piano gets most use. Why? Because I can play it and not be concerned that it's having any impact on anybody else in the house, or close neighbours for that matter, at any time of day I choose. And the action and sound are good enough for the types of use I put it to.

If I was rich, with a large house, with no neighbours that were that close, I would have a decent grand and a decent digital - I'm sure I'd still find use / need for one - plus I'd also have one of the more portable (stage orientated) digital pianos and a case for when I travelled.

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#2254694 - 03/31/14 07:28 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11898
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
A grand shorter than 5'6 to 6' will usually be not worth it for the price, unless you're going for a nice piece of piano-shaped furniture. While I agree with you on the Roland as far as feel, please bear in mind that Roland is not all the DP world has to offer. Try playing on higher end Yamahas and Kawais and I think you will be much happier. It's still not the same as acoustic, but there are pretty good substitutes out there if your situation means you have to buy digital.

I agree that for long-term practicing, the Roland is not great for a classical pianist. I spent last summer playing mostly on my FP-7 (not sure if it has the same action as the FP-7F). That was not good and it prompted me to buy the MP11 for practicing this summer. We shall see how it goes, but so far I'm delighted with how it feels and sounds.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2254709 - 03/31/14 08:05 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Morodiene]
Digitalguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 428
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

I agree that for long-term practicing, the Roland is not great for a classical pianist. I spent last summer playing mostly on my FP-7 (not sure if it has the same action as the FP-7F). That was not good and it prompted me to buy the MP11 for practicing this summer. We shall see how it goes, but so far I'm delighted with how it feels and sounds.


Very different action, PHAII against PHA III Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement. So if PHAII is the only Roland action you have played you may want to try other models before saying Roland is not great for a classical pianist (I am no classical pianist, but I know some the love PHAIII for classical piano playing). Action, like sound, has a certain degree of subjectivity, however.
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2254712 - 03/31/14 08:08 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9138
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Is PHAIII so different to PHAII?

Isn't it just a case of 3-sensors vs 2-sensors?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2254713 - 03/31/14 08:09 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
It might be true - I disagree but let's say that it might for the sake of your argument. Even then you too quickly dismiss some of the advantages of DPs and you also don't acknowledge the 'total cost of ownership' of an AP.

If you want to buy new $5000 will give you the absolute bare minimum as far as upright pianos are concerned. It's barely enough to get you out of 'cheap' or 'store brand' territory and will net you the cheapest Yamaha b1 or Kawai K15. If you buy used you have to be lucky or very experienced to get a used piano that was treated and maintained right otherwise you'll end up with a 'worn out' instrument or you'll have to spend additional money on maintenance and repair atfer the purchase. Then you'll spend probably a few hundred dollars per year on tuning/maintenance in addition to that.

If you don't own a big house/don't have very tolerant neighbors/have a wife and or kids/have to hold down a job then your practice hours are either very limited or you at least need a silent piano. This will push you into the $7000 territory if you want the least expensive 'brand name' instrument.

Double that if you want a grand but you'd likely end up with a really bad sounding one. You'd also need a whole room dedicated to that instrument then. If you want to breach into 6 ft. territory you'll end up paying $20,000 for a decent grand with silent function. You'd also need to consult with a structural engineer to make sure your floor can support the 700 lbs. or more of weight

Well most subscribers already know this because the whole argument has been done time and time again.

If you are lucky and or affluent enough to be able to own a great acoustic grand piano then congratulations to you sir. You are not the first one to point out the superiority of acoustic pianos to DPs though. In fact if you look around then you'll notice that that topic is debated lively and almost daily by the people on this subforum.

So while your input is certainly appreciated it's not exactly news

Secondly the instrument manufacturers have already made great strides forward to 'close the gap' between acoustics and DPs and to make the differences less noticeable.

Thirdly for many of us it is the best and or only option to enjoy playing the piano at all in lieu of our living conditions etc.

Lastly it's always a foregone conclusion anyway if you compare a Roland FP7-F to a Steinway and Sons 1098 Piano that cost $25,000 when it was new.

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#2254714 - 03/31/14 08:12 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Digitalguy]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11898
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

I agree that for long-term practicing, the Roland is not great for a classical pianist. I spent last summer playing mostly on my FP-7 (not sure if it has the same action as the FP-7F). That was not good and it prompted me to buy the MP11 for practicing this summer. We shall see how it goes, but so far I'm delighted with how it feels and sounds.


Very different action, PHAII against PHA III Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement. So if PHAII is the only Roland action you have played you may want to try other models before saying Roland is not great for a classical pianist (I am no classical pianist, but I know some the love PHAIII for classical piano playing). Action, like sound, has a certain degree of subjectivity, however.
Sorry, I have played other Rolands before, but older models. I have not played the PHA III, but apparently the OP doesn't like it either for classical playing. But of course, it is an opinion. smile
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2254715 - 03/31/14 08:13 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Kawai James]
Digitalguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 428
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Is PHAIII so different to PHAII?

Isn't it just a case of 3-sensors vs 2-sensors?

James
x


Haven't played FP7 but according to Roland there is also ivory feel and escapement. Having said this a 3rd sensor for a classical pianist could make a difference (it doesn't for me).
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2254724 - 03/31/14 08:31 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1682
Loc: Portugal
There didn't seem to be any difference between PHAII and PHAIII when I tried them side by side. They both felt reasonably like a well regulated grand, on the light side, to me. I preferred them to Yamaha GH3, Kawai RH and some other actions: Korg, Kurzwiel and Casio.

But Morodiene, who is a classical pianist and teacher, says more or less the opposite smile , so it's really very subjective this. It must also have to do with the AP actions you've been exposed to and been impressed with.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2254725 - 03/31/14 08:32 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 232
Breaking News: "Acoustic pianos better than Digital pianos." The 'International Association of Associated Matters' (IAM) has determined -via rigourous tests- that Acoustics are indeed better than Digitals. As of yet, Casio, Korg, and Roland have no comment. Yamaha and Kawai couldn't care less; and Steinway, well, Steinway fully agrees and complies with the findings: 'Acoustic good; Digital bad!'

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#2254726 - 03/31/14 08:33 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 503
but the car has no CHARACTER, doesn't whinny or nicker, doesn't leave "gardeners' gold" (a.k.a. "road apples") on the road, has SUCH poor traction in snow that the roads have to be plowed or salted.
Plus it goes SO FAST that the wheels and suspension get destroyed on pot holes and there is No TIME to enjoy the journey...
on and on, the list goes on...

I can't turn back the hands of time on THAT one either.
{I could move to a very different area of the country that would just about REQUIRE a change of religion.}

Long live wooden pianos, with their temperature and humidity frailty - clearly WORTH the hassles for their (ever decreasing) difference in sound. (to some)

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#2254731 - 03/31/14 08:48 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Digitalguy]
CarloPiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 169
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Is PHAIII so different to PHAII?

Isn't it just a case of 3-sensors vs 2-sensors?

James
x


Haven't played FP7 but according to Roland there is also ivory feel and escapement. Having said this a 3rd sensor for a classical pianist could make a difference (it doesn't for me).


PHA II keyboard's (I own a HP-305) note repetition is quite mediocre (as best). It's noticeably better on PHA III. But AFAIK that 3rd sensor and the subsequent better ability to do repeated notes is the only difference between both. At lest in my case, I just got the same feeling playing non-repeated notes repertoire on both.

Both actions also share their characteristic thundering noise. The brand new PHA IV is a bit quieter.

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#2254732 - 03/31/14 08:48 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Morodiene]
Digitalguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 428
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Sorry, I have played other Rolands before, but older models. I have not played the PHA III, but apparently the OP doesn't like it either for classical playing. But of course, it is an opinion. smile


Yeah, I think opinions on actions depend very much on people's experience with acoustics and on the type of music they play.
Personally, I find the Ivory feel G (sort of a half way between PHAII and PHAIII, but very different from both) closer to the action of my baby grand, as I find PHAIII too light, but sure PHAIII is faster, but this is not really an argument for me (and Ivory feel G is relatively fast, to the point that some people think it has 3 sensors). From what I have been told Kawai Grand Feel is quite lighter than RM3II, but faster. So, while I have not played either, I would probably prefer RM3II based on my experience and on the music I play.
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2254734 - 03/31/14 08:51 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CarloPiano]
Digitalguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 428
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: CarloPiano
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Is PHAIII so different to PHAII?

Isn't it just a case of 3-sensors vs 2-sensors?

James
x


Haven't played FP7 but according to Roland there is also ivory feel and escapement. Having said this a 3rd sensor for a classical pianist could make a difference (it doesn't for me).


PHA II keyboard's (I own a HP-305) note repetition is quite mediocre (as best). It's noticeably better on PHA III. But AFAIK that 3rd sensor and the subsequent better ability to do repeated notes is the only difference between both. At lest in my case, I just got the same feeling playing non-repeated notes repertoire on both.

Both actions also share their characteristic thundering noise. The brand new PHA IV is a bit quieter.


The thing is, there are several different implementations of PHAIII, FP7f is different from RD700, which in turn is different from V-piano (which is the heaviest, and probably best, PHAIII implementation). I haven't tried HP models, but I wouldn't be surprised is it in turn different from the stage pianos implementations
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2254747 - 03/31/14 09:28 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: R_B]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3599
Loc: Northern England.
"Long live wooden pianos, with their temperature and humidity frailty - clearly WORTH the hassles for their (ever decreasing) difference in sound. (to some)"

Have to agree when you can buy a decent sounding playable one for less than £300 in a salesroom complete with Vintage Stool . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2254749 - 03/31/14 09:32 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Digitalguy]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9138
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
The thing is, there are several different implementations of PHAIII, FP7f is different from RD700, which in turn is different from V-piano (which is the heaviest, and probably best, PHAIII implementation).


Are you sure about that?
I would be interested to read more about the different implementations - it would be rather complicated (not to mention expensive) to maintain spare parts for different types of the same action.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2254758 - 03/31/14 09:57 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Nigeth]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: North Carolina
This is true.
Originally Posted By: Nigeth
If you want to buy new $5000 will give you the absolute bare minimum as far as upright pianos are concerned. It's barely enough to get you out of 'cheap' or 'store brand' territory and will net you the cheapest Yamaha b1 or Kawai K15.
But don't forget the used market. A decent Yamaha U-series or Kawai K-series upright (new: $10,000 to $12,000 list) can last 30 or 40 years. If you buy one that's ten years old you'll get decades of use for perhaps $3000 or $4000. And it will beat the pants off of any digital at any price.

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#2254761 - 03/31/14 10:08 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5107
Originally Posted By: CrashTest
I would like to share my experience between my grand piano, digital piano, and upright piano and hope it can help some of you in similar situations.

As a preface, I got a degree in classical piano performance.

I think it's really more appropriate for a casual player, and not a more serious classical player who wants to fully develop touch, tone, etc. It has its limitations in that regard and I would recommend a good quality upright if you could swing the price difference.

Now, the grand vs upright. I will make it simple. My Yamaha grand has a faster touch and response, which also makes dynamic control a bit easier.

Having said that, the 4"11 size grand does not sound good. It sounds metallic, dim

The second conclusion - if you're a serious player, I'd avoid a digital piano and just find a good upright. I got my used Steinway in great condition for around $5,000, which is not unreasonable when many digital pianos are near that price. (My Roland FP7F with pedals and stand was almost $2500 alone)


I cannot say much about your Roland, but I bought my V- Piano because of neighbours, which means that I play it exclusively with headphones. I have no problems transferring new classical pieces that I learnt from scratch on it to performing them on acoustic grands, for audiences. That is not something I could say about some small uprights - including the Yamaha that I learnt on as a child.

Of course, I would have preferred to have a good acoustic grand as my home piano instead, but the V is a lot more than a stopgap for me: it has enabled me to learn and polish pieces to performance level - it has a responsiveness to touch and articulation that far transcends sampled DPs', and doesn't have the limits to dynamics and tone that the latter have. And its action is good enough that transitioning to acoustic grands is no problem.

Incidentally, I am a serious classical pianist......

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#2254768 - 03/31/14 10:17 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2083
Loc: Rocky Mountains
I have to admit. Listened to an online retailer who had a used full size Steinway upright (52 inch). The thing sounded obscenely good.

Agree with the no new info.

I also have to admit. I haven't played an Avantgrand or a V-piano. I'm very happy with my VPC.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2254771 - 03/31/14 10:21 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: MacMacMac]
Nigeth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 108
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
This is true.But don't forget the used market. A decent Yamaha U-series or Kawai K-series upright (new: $10,000 to $12,000 list) can last 30 or 40 years. If you buy one that's ten years old you'll get decades of use for perhaps $3000 or $4000. And it will beat the pants off of any digital at any price.


Please see the next paragraph where I was talking about the used market and its issues.

Yes you can save a lot of money when you buy used but it can be - excuse my french - a crapshoot. Many pianos have not been maintained well by their previous owners, some have been utterly neglected even, music schools tend to use the used market to 'dump' old instruments which usually have been treated even worse or are simply 'worn out' from years of practice.

Chances are you end up with a prestigious instrument that was expensive and well made when it was new 20 years ago but is now even worse than an entry level piano because of years of abuse and neglect.

You either end up spending more to repair and restore your purchase or you have access to an expert that can help you judge the quality of a used purchase.

It's great when you have a company like Thomann that offer 'refurbished' used instruments with store warranty otherwise you'd have to be an expert to judge the quality of your purchase.

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#2254788 - 03/31/14 11:16 AM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: North Carolina
I don't think it's a crap shoot. Just skip over pianos in poor condition. Any piano that's been abused or neglected is off the list.

Instead, seek out one in good condition. And then have it inspected by a local PTG tech. Choose one that needs little or no repair work. There are plenty of pianos like that, at or below $4000.

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#2254815 - 03/31/14 12:24 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Kawai James]
Digitalguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 428
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
The thing is, there are several different implementations of PHAIII, FP7f is different from RD700, which in turn is different from V-piano (which is the heaviest, and probably best, PHAIII implementation).


Are you sure about that?
I would be interested to read more about the different implementations - it would be rather complicated (not to mention expensive) to maintain spare parts for different types of the same action.

James
x


Roland itself gives different names PHAIII, PHAIII Ivory Feel, PHAIII Ivory feel S, Ivory feel S (still PHAIII according to the piano seller I talked to). I haven't played all the possible implementations but some of them and not all side by side, but talking to other people they have confirmed my impression. RD700 fells a bit firmer than either fp-7f / fp-80 (each with slightly different PHAIII) and V-piano slightly firmer than RD700. However with V-piano it's difficult to compare as it's a completely different instrument and it can be just an illusion... However, the same impression is confirmed by the piano dealers I have talked to...
Maybe Jay from Roland can tell us which PHAIII are really the same and which are not interchangable...
_________________________
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#2254822 - 03/31/14 12:40 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: CrashTest]
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4110
Very lively discussion guys - good points.

There are some conveniences you lose by not having the digital, such as quiet practicing and always in tune. And I like I said, it depends how far you want to develop your playing in terms of nuance and detail that a digital cannot match an acoustic in.

I'll make a point with my musical development, though. I feel that the Yamaha Grand's poor sound stumps my musical growth even if the action is good. The opposite for the digital - made to sound like a grand, but it's not natural and the action is not real.

The upright, at least this Steinway one - has a good balance of both tone and touch that makes me develop faster musically. If I had a nice larger grand, I'm sure the trend would be even better.

A special note about the cheaper uprights - yes, it is very difficult finding a good one for under or around $5k. I searched high and low, and many of the Steinway 1098's that I played were not maintained too properly and sounded not so great. I found a very clean, well maintained one that feels great and has a very good tone. They are out there, but you have to play a couple before finding that nice one.

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#2254848 - 03/31/14 02:23 PM Re: My experience from Grand piano, to Digital Piano, to Upright [Re: Digitalguy]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2394
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Digitalguy
Roland itself gives different names PHAIII, PHAIII Ivory Feel, PHAIII Ivory feel S, Ivory feel S (still PHAIII according to the piano seller I talked to). I haven't played all the possible implementations but some of them and not all side by side, but talking to other people they have confirmed my impression. RD700 fells a bit firmer than either fp-7f / fp-80 (each with slightly different PHAIII) and V-piano slightly firmer than RD700. However with V-piano it's difficult to compare as it's a completely different instrument and it can be just an illusion... However, the same impression is confirmed by the piano dealers I have talked to...
Maybe Jay from Roland can tell us which PHAIII are really the same and which are not interchangable...


I think you are completely wrong. Yes, Roland uses different nomenclature "ivory feel', ivory feel s" etc but that all relates to key surface, NOT the actual hammer mechanics. I am absolutely sure that PHA-III actions, regardless of their exact name are identical in terms of the pure mechanics. Any perceived differences are due to the actions being mounted in different structures and/or due to differences in sound engine response to key pressure. I say this as a previous owner of V-Piano, RD-700GX, FP7F and HP-307.

I also believe that purely in terms of mechanics PHA-II is the same. But PHA-III allows recognition of much faster repetition due to the different sensor arrangement.

All the Roland actions are nimble and responsive. Slightly lighter than average and slightly noisier than average.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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