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Hello all, Since I have been spinning my wheels for many months now I thought I would post my choices and solicit some opinions. For a very brief bit of background, I'm a decent amateur player with a solid 20 (gulp) years experience playing. Currently taking lessons (again), try to play an hour a day, working on a Shostakovich fugue in addition to playing quite a bit of jazz and improvised music. I currently have a Yamaha PF-500 digital piano. Pretty old I know but I'm so accustomed to it I generally put up pretty well with all of the compromises it requires. Ignorance is bliss. I do have some money set aside to upgrade maxing out at about $7-8k. I have a limited amount of practice time available while everyone is awake and generally do the majority of my practicing after everyone has gone to bed with headphones but still have some time available during the week - probably a half an hour a day - and then at least an hour each weekend day for "noisy" practice. The choices that have been rolling around in my dusty attic are; - I could get a pretty darn good acoustic upright, play it sparingly and do the rest of my practicing on my existing PF-500. So I'd get to play on real piano that I could trade in for my future grand piano  (couple years away worst case). - I could upgrade/ buy a new digital or hybrid. I've been looking at the yamaha N1 and NU1 recently. Pretty pricey and I haven't convinced myself that the playing experience is enough of an upgrade over the PF-500 to justify the $4k+ outlay of cash. Plus I feel like it is a step in the wrong direction when I'm ready to buy a grand as I won't be able to recover much of the cost in trade. Easy to move, I can play it when ever and it has a "real" acoustic action and improved sound (got to better samples than the PF-500 right?) - Do nothing. Stay with the PF-500 for the foreseeable future and buy a mid-tier grand in a couple of years after saving some more. Thoughts? Thanks in advance. Dan
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- I could get a pretty darn good acoustic upright, play it sparingly and do the rest of my practicing on my existing PF-500. So I'd get to play on real piano that I could trade in for my future grand piano (couple years away worst case). I don't speak English very well so I don't understand what "pretty darn good" means, but in my opinion, for 7-8K you can buy a very good upright piano if you look for it. And perhaps I'm not correct, but digital pianos' evolution seems to be very slow, so if you buy a new one, perhaps you will be paying more for the cabinetry than for the better playing experience (specially true for hybrids).
Last edited by Marcos Daniel; 04/05/14 01:32 AM.
Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
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... generally do the majority of my practicing after everyone has gone to bed with headphones ...
... Easy to move, I can play it when ever and it has a "real" acoustic action and improved sound...
This appears to be the key to what you want. The Avantgrand....agree with you. Kawai has some real good actions. Roland ain't shabby either... V-piano. You really should try these out yourself. High end digital stuff. Then decide for yourself. It really is a personal choice. You should face the fact that you're playing with headphones most of the time. If you want to spend money on a midrange Grand AP that you can use only a limited amount. It can't be your main practice piano. That's your business.
Ron Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forumpicts/MOYD13/MOYD_3.gif) ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Joplinbadgesmall.jpg)
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I think you're in a pretty good place as you are, no real GAS. I would just take a leisurely stroll (ride) to a couple of music stores that have DP's on the floor, and have a play to see of any of them inspire you further with their action or sound. If they do, come back on here and ask about them, if not keep the money saved for the grand and carry on as you are for now.
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Thanks for the responses. I know there is no "correct" answer. I know the Roland V-piano and the Kawai digitals (CA models) get very good reviews. The V-piano sound and customization are supposed to be awesome. I don't know much about the action though. I have done quite a bit of looking but honestly only at acoustics and the AvantGrand's to date. It is of course the "authentic" acoustic action on the AG's that is the biggest attraction.
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Get a second hand digital if possible. You won't lose much on reselling it if you upgrade, whereas a new one will lose half its value as soon as you unpack it.
Don't worry too much about "authenticity"; focus more on what feels good. Various people have said that there is no problem transitioning to an acoustic piano, playing pieces they've learnt on supposedly artificial action. The AGs and similar models fail in many of the "raisons d'etre" of DPs, in particular low weight / portability, low price, and low maintenance.
Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian, Bluethner / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
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Here's my opinion on comparing uprights (good quality) to high-end digitals. I think that the high-end digitals are more comparable to larger grand pianos, especially when coupled with software pianos for more authentic sound. If you were to compare, you're probably looking at upwards of $20k for an acoustic grand brand new (nothing shorter than around 6'). Upright actions are different than grands, and even the high-end uprights are *still* just an upright when it comes down to it. So I think unless you're planning on saving up for a grand (over 6'), your money will be better used towards a nice DP. Seeing as how you are playing some classical, I do think you will need to focus a bit more on feel than sound. In that arena, I think Kawai DPs are the way to go. If you don't care about the cabinet look, you can get a Kawai MP11 which has the same action as the CA65/95s but is a slab-type. Action and sound is great, and it's about half the price of the CA95 model and easier to move if portability is something you need/want. This means you can save up your money for a grand piano in the future. 
private piano/voice teacher FT ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/thumbs/2529.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/9342.png)
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For whatever reason I really hadn't thought about a used upgraded digital. If I could find a good one like a MP-11 for around half the price of a new NU1 then its a pretty good compromise. I have heard good things about the action. Thanks!
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Isfird13, taking into consideration your needs and among of playing with and without headphones, I would do of the two things:
- buy the kawai ca65 (or - if you will be asking much more without headphones, ca95) . It's action is really awesome compared to other top actions.
- buy the used kawai or other good used upright with installed silent system, if you want the Real thing for real playing
This seems the most reasonable. If you will not like the sound of kawai, you can look at yamaha or roland, but, i write it with a bit of sadness, kawai action is years ahead of other companies.
However, finał solution is yours.
I did not played the AG pianos, but still CA series action is something I would thought is unimaginable in digital, until I touched this in piano shop days ago.
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The MP10 is selling for $2000 at Kraftmusic.com. I just bought one locally and love it.
I take lessons and theory class. Lessons are on a Steinway baby grand, theory class has a Boston upright. I was not able to find a keyboard that I thought was a good enough comparison to make it feel realistic, until I found Kawai.
Because I wasn't happy with most of the keyboards I found, I began looking at Acoustic pianos. My price range was a lot lower than yours and I couldn't find anything that I liked that I could afford.
I absolutely love the sound of an acoustic piano - there is something about the way the sound leaps out of the cabinet and dances around the room. It is next to impossible to get that on a digital.
There will also always be a difference in the feel of a digital compared to an acoustic, unless you get a hybrid digital which has a real action. The Kawai wooden actions come pretty close - at least for me, for now.
An ideal situation would be to have both, so you could play the beautiful sounding acoustic when you are able to, and play the digital when you need to be quiet or want to explore other sounds or recording.
Your budget would have got me the Kawai K5 acoustic (used) that I looked at and loved, and the Kawai MP11 digital that I think is the best digital out there.
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The MP10 is selling for $2000 at Kraftmusic.com. I just bought one locally and love it.
I take lessons and theory class. Lessons are on a Steinway baby grand, theory class has a Boston upright. I was not able to find a keyboard that I thought was a good enough comparison to make it feel realistic, until I found Kawai.
Because I wasn't happy with most of the keyboards I found, I began looking at Acoustic pianos. My price range was a lot lower than yours and I couldn't find anything that I liked that I could afford.
I absolutely love the sound of an acoustic piano - there is something about the way the sound leaps out of the cabinet and dances around the room. It is next to impossible to get that on a digital.
There will also always be a difference in the feel of a digital compared to an acoustic, unless you get a hybrid digital which has a real action. The Kawai wooden actions come pretty close - at least for me, for now.
An ideal situation would be to have both, so you could play the beautiful sounding acoustic when you are able to, and play the digital when you need to be quiet or want to explore other sounds or recording.
Your budget would have got me the Kawai K5 acoustic (used) that I looked at and loved, and the Kawai MP11 digital that I think is the best digital out there. How well are you able to transfer from the MP10's key action to those on the acoustics? What about the pedals? Whenever I've had the chance to try out the MP10 in a shop I've always been impressed by the realism of it's action. So far though I've never felt the same way about the GF DP's like the CA95, CS10 and MP11. I've been underwhelmed. The GF action seems a bit soft, light and empty to me. It could be due to the particular AP I'd used prior to testing them out though. I'll want to try them out some more and compare with other APs. The main advantage I could tell GF has over RM3 is it's a bit lighter and easier to play at the back of the keys, which is a more realistic trait. At the moment though I'm seriously considering going for the MP10 or VPC1 over the MP11. I know there are others on here who also have a preference for the RM3 action over GF. Have you tried out the MP11 or other GF action DPs Joe?
Last edited by Enthusiast; 04/05/14 08:37 PM.
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The information has been really great. Thank you everyone. Since I am playing most of the time via headphones a profession stage piano is a very good compromise at half the cost of hybrid piano. I hate the metal stands but if I get a good one hopefully it will keep the keyboard stable.
Question - is the MP-11 actually available yet? I've been looking on-line and the usual suspects all are giving a ship date in June. Is the consensus that the new GF action is a noticeable improvement over the MP-10's RM3? Wouldn't mind saving the money.
Edit - Kraft does have the MP-11. Some of the other's don't. . .
Last edited by lsfird13; 04/05/14 10:17 PM.
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How well are you able to transfer from the MP10's key action to those on the acoustics? What about the pedals?
...
Have you tried out the MP11 or other GF action DPs Joe?
I would say I transfer between the MP10 and the acoustics pretty seamlessly, especially after finding the 'hammer delay' function and adjusting it appropriately. I used to practice on a Casio or Yamaha, and I'd get to lesson and miss notes because I was too soft. After getting the MP10 and adjusting the hammer delay from 1 to 2, I was missing notes on the MP10 just like I was in lesson (as in now I can work on it and stop missing notes). Yes, the keyboard feels different but it is so close it's hard to describe what's different. Reallly it's just the sensation of the hammer bouncing off a string as opposed to hitting a solid object. I tried everything I could under $3000, and also tried the Kawai CA65. I tried Roland, Korg, Casio, Yamaha, Kurzweil all in their competing line of instruments, and to me, Kawai is by far the closest to feeling like an acoustic piano (barring the Yamaha Hybrid pianos). I actually didn't love the Yamaha hybrid (NU1) although it's cool to be playing a 'real' action. I think I'm not crazy about Yamaha acoustics - but the Yamaha hybrid felt exactly like a Yamaha acoustic. The big difference between the MP10 and MP11 is the third sensor on the MP11. I noticed the third sensor when comparing the two to see what it does. I think it emulates a grand piano action a little better but it is a small difference unless you play a lot of fast notes. One thing to point out is that Kawai's 2 sensor action still repeats notes quickly. I found the RM3 to be considerably better (faster) than Yamaha's 2 sensor GH based actions. Oh and the pedals are really nice that come with the MP10. I don't even think about them, they don't really seem different to me. Each piano, whether acoustic or digital, feels different. Many of the differences between the MP10 and an acoustic are similar to the differences between two different acoustic pianos. I think the MP10 is a heck of a lot nicer to play than a $2000-$3000 acoustic. To me it's on par with Kawai's entry level upright, maybe between the K15 and the K2. This is just my own opinion. I spent many hours in the piano store playing different digital and acoustic pianos, and I believe I made the best purchase I could for under $4000.
Last edited by Joe Garfield; 04/06/14 01:17 AM.
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The information has been really great. Thank you everyone. Since I am playing most of the time via headphones a profession stage piano is a very good compromise at half the cost of hybrid piano. I hate the metal stands but if I get a good one hopefully it will keep the keyboard stable.
Question - is the MP-11 actually available yet? I've been looking on-line and the usual suspects all are giving a ship date in June. Is the consensus that the new GF action is a noticeable improvement over the MP-10's RM3? Wouldn't mind saving the money.
Edit - Kraft does have the MP-11. Some of the other's don't. . . Your thinking about the mp11 instead of console one is not so good. First, you will have to have really good stand. If you want to play it outside of the phones, still you will have to,have speakers and amps. And, kawai ca65 is the same price as mp11, but you get stability, place for sheet music, good music stand and it plays by itself if needed. And looks better Regarding the action, i also like rm3 II more than GF? It's more realistic for me. But both ahead of competition.
Last edited by kapelli; 04/06/14 04:00 AM.
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Yes I do realize that I need an amp and speakers (for those times when I'm not using headphones I figure I'll just use my stereo equipment). I would need a good keyboard stand and a music stand. Price wise for new instruments it looks like I'll need to spend about $3500 on a CA-65. Where as I could get everything for the MP-11 at around $3k, an MP-10 at least a couple hundred less. Not chump change. Finding a used instrument would bring that down. The CA-65 does look better. Good enough to live in a family room where as any stage piano will be in the basement. Also have to say that in the video on the Kawai website, the CA-65/95 doesn't actually sound all that great (to my hear) in replicating a fully complex acoustic grand. One more compromise in a series of them http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/images/icons/default/frown.gif
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Maybe the prices in US are so much different than in Europe, but here the bare bones MP11 cost the same as CA65.
Last edited by kapelli; 04/06/14 09:17 AM.
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How well are you able to transfer from the MP10's key action to those on the acoustics? What about the pedals?
...
Have you tried out the MP11 or other GF action DPs Joe?
I would say I transfer between the MP10 and the acoustics pretty seamlessly, especially after finding the 'hammer delay' function and adjusting it appropriately. I used to practice on a Casio or Yamaha, and I'd get to lesson and miss notes because I was too soft. After getting the MP10 and adjusting the hammer delay from 1 to 2, I was missing notes on the MP10 just like I was in lesson (as in now I can work on it and stop missing notes). Yes, the keyboard feels different but it is so close it's hard to describe what's different. Reallly it's just the sensation of the hammer bouncing off a string as opposed to hitting a solid object. I tried everything I could under $3000, and also tried the Kawai CA65. I tried Roland, Korg, Casio, Yamaha, Kurzweil all in their competing line of instruments, and to me, Kawai is by far the closest to feeling like an acoustic piano (barring the Yamaha Hybrid pianos). I actually didn't love the Yamaha hybrid (NU1) although it's cool to be playing a 'real' action. I think I'm not crazy about Yamaha acoustics - but the Yamaha hybrid felt exactly like a Yamaha acoustic. The big difference between the MP10 and MP11 is the third sensor on the MP11. I noticed the third sensor when comparing the two to see what it does. I think it emulates a grand piano action a little better but it is a small difference unless you play a lot of fast notes. One thing to point out is that Kawai's 2 sensor action still repeats notes quickly. I found the RM3 to be considerably better (faster) than Yamaha's 2 sensor GH based actions. Oh and the pedals are really nice that come with the MP10. I don't even think about them, they don't really seem different to me. Each piano, whether acoustic or digital, feels different. Many of the differences between the MP10 and an acoustic are similar to the differences between two different acoustic pianos. I think the MP10 is a heck of a lot nicer to play than a $2000-$3000 acoustic. To me it's on par with Kawai's entry level upright, maybe between the K15 and the K2. This is just my own opinion. I spent many hours in the piano store playing different digital and acoustic pianos, and I believe I made the best purchase I could for under $4000. Thanks for the info Joe. I'm also primarily going to use my next DP as a practice instrument to go onto acoustics and something I want to use long term. I'd also use it for music tech so the pitch bend/mod wheel etc would come in handy. There were a couple of good deals on the MP10 which are already starting to disappear that I missed out on. I'm hoping to move on that soon before it's too late. The VPC1 is another I could consider but without onboard sounds and controls could become inconvenient. Not sure the RM3II action quite feels the same either since I did try a CA15. I don't know whether or not a triple sensor would make a real difference in the future to me. I don't get the chance to try the MP10 in store anymore since it was replaced by the MP11 but the F30 pedals were good so glad to hear the F20 pedals on the MP10 are also realistic. Talking about Yamaha's I wasn't so impressed with the CP4 from my brief go on it. I'd played on a real S6 grand before playing on it's S6 patch which was interesting. It sounded ok and somewhat like the acoustic it was based on. The action didn't seem realistic at all. I never really liked the CP line in that sense.
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Hi guys. I am late in the discussion and a complete novice when it comes to digital. I am ready to purchase MP11 but have lots of silly questions. MP11 seems to be perfect because it has the most acoustic like actions like CA65 and cheaper, right? Also I like the portability because I start chamber music lessons in the summer. I know it will come in handy.
1) Is it wise to buy it on-line if it's cheaper? It seems like we only have one Kawai dealer in Arizona.
2) The owner of the store told me that he sells piano only - meaning it does not come with an amp or chair or case. I understand a chair / bench. but don't know why I need an amp. Doesn't digital piano make sound by itself or it makes sound through the headset only? Confused.
3) He said that I can buy the case, bench and amp etc in guitar center. Is that what you guys do?
Thanks.
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Farmgirl,
The mp are stage pianos. So they are constructed to be used on stage, so thereis no need for them to have amps and speakers.
They do not have any manufacturers-ready stand.
The ca65 will cost you much cheapaer.
To practice chamber music, you will have to pług yourself into some extremely amp and speakers, because you cannot practice chamber music with the headphones on your head lolz.
Read the specification on the kawai site, so you will understand what it is.
The option for you is roland fp80, because it's the best action combined with abilities you are looking for.
There is not competition for it at given quality, because they are stage pianos.
If you buy a console, you will get everything you need except portabklity.
Of you will go one shelf down, so you will find Planty of portale pianos with dedicatd standy and speakers.
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