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Calvin: this is not my intention and I apologize if I came across this way.

In fact it's the other way around: the Carbon action is constantly being touted here as "superior" which may - or may *not* be the case.

Not sure if it'll bring Carnegie Hall to a standstill...

By same token others have intensively studied this subject as well and are totally entitled having come to a conclusion of their own. It's a free world.

In the final analysis it is, as you say, very much an "industry decision" and I wish you very well with the action's success.

Of course, piano technicians will have much less to do in future including domestic manufacture of just about anything piano.

Why not hire me as salesman for you when visiting several European piano companies this summer? Speaking perfect German!

Am semi-retired and could use the extra income...

Norbert

Welcome Calvin!

Glad to have you on the Forums.

Jay

@Keith
Thank you very much for using our parts and your question which essentially brings up the topic of "is whipping beneficial or detrimental for piano shanks". I would like to politely disagree with your position that a flexible shank (and therefore one that will whip) is ideal. We have tested weak wooden shanks that flex vs strong ones with minimal flex, and the ones that don't flex consistently produce louder and clearer notes. This is because of 2 reasons. The first is that when the shank bends, it loses energy, rather than generating more and hitting the strings harder (which is the common belief). The second reason is that when a shank bends, it not only bends back and forth, but side to side as well, which causes the hammer not to properly hit the strike point. This can be seen in our high-speed video. We also have additional information on this topic and composite materials vs wood in general on our website.


So to more succinctly answer your question, we don't believe that it is a "false equivalency" to design our shanks to be as strong the strongest wooden shank, because we did sound tests to go along with our strength and high-speed imaging tests, and the stronger shanks consistently sounded the best. Because of this, we do not have any plans to offer weaker shanks.

@michaelha
I would answer your question, but Keith did it perfectly already :P

The problem is the term "Plastic Action." Yes, I know it's a misnomer, but it is the 'super weapon' in the hands of the competitor. You can talk and explain everything however much you want, but when the "cheap" bomb is dropped, it's over. Poof!

Here at PW, we have a very interested group of piano fixated people. We want to know the names of the sheep who were left shivering for our hammers. Instead of sugarplums dancing in our heads, we swoon over the torque stability of tuning pins. We are Abel to discuss Renner 'til inharmonicity is running out of our ears.

BUT - the average piano buyer doesn't really care about the action, or who built it, as long as it works well. Most buyers assume that "all of that key and hammer stuff" was made by the same company as the name they see on the fallboard. There is probably a vague notion that all of those parts are wood. That's a hard notion to fight against.

Again, we are a rare group, and trying to reach the 'average' piano buyer is the problem for the manufacturers.

What is the percentage of buyers of new pianos who are members of PW or have ever heard of Larry Fine? How well informed are they, really?

It has been going on for years and it is going to take some time to change that 'general assumption' which floats around the piano buyer's market. I only takes one salesman to mention "cheap plastic parts" and it digs a very deep hole from which to climb. We all understand the phrase "arguing 'till yer blue in the face." That's the challenge.

(Side thought - It's an interesting concept to build poor pianos so that tuner/techs will continue to make a good income.)

'Louder' and 'clearer' are both preferences. Some piano makers (and buyers, of course) prefer a softer sound with more color.


'Sounding the best' is something that will never be agreed upon. Surely you can see that some people might prefer a different sound than you do, and those people might prefer shanks with more flex (I believe Kawai fits into this category; and Kawai is not afraid of carbon fiber).

While it is ridiculous to call carbon action "cheap plastic" it's equally inappropriate to lump all wooden actions into one single category.

There can be no doubt that Renner, supplying virtually all of world's finest pianos, is going to great length & expense securing highest possible quality and stability for their famous customers. Like piano making itself, woods are chosen very carefully and kill dried to highest consistency.

http://www.louisrenner.com/Odenheim-story.asp

There's no doubt money is being made in the rebuilding industry,be it that this part is used or another.
It's certainly nice for rebuilders to have several options available to themselves.

On the other hand, it's just not feasible to assume that world's premium makers of pianos would have it any other way but going with what they deem "best" for their own purpose.

http://www.louisrenner.com/history-of-the-action.asp

What's important to remember is that different methods can accomplish equally good result for different people.

My one observation and belief is that considering the state of perfection by the major players of the industry, these things are extremely hard to measure in the real world.

Mutual respect is better than claims of superiority and hegemony of one over the other.

Norbert

This has always been my suspicion and was my initial response to the other composite action thread.

Even here among fairly resourceful piano buyers/owners there's still some doubt about whether composite actions are even on par with wooden actions. Think how entry-level buyers or old-fashioned buyers would react, especially if they've been hearing for decades about how terrible Kawai's plastic actions are, how they used it to save a few bucks, etc...

During my search last year two Yamaha sales people and at least two other piano dealers used the "cheap plastic parts" tactic against Kawai, claiming Kawai does it to save costs. And even here on PW we still have that in a slightly different form. So point is, even today there's still quite a bit of negative marketing against composites.

Maybe W,N&G needs a celebrity endorser if they don't have one already. WRT universities, do the students even know what action is under the hood?

Like every technology, composite parts take a while to be tweaked for performance and lifetime. The engineers always start from what they know, and try to make the minimum changes to get the desired result. When plastic valves were first introduced (about 50 years ago), they attempted to use molds for brass valves, and all the plastic ones failed because the thickness in critical areas of the valve needed to be larger for plastic ones. No one has this problem anymore. Composites may also be the best choice in high moisture environments like the tropics. I've always had horrendous problems with actions binding when in southeast Asia. Maybe this is why the Asian piano makers have been pioneers in composite parts.

Calvin, about whipping.

It has long been my ASSUMPTION that wooden shanks do in fact whip - in fact I find it hard to believe that they don't.
I assume that they are graded/sorted to match each other within a set.
I have also assumed that carbon shank material, diameter and wall thickness has been selected for the same amount of whip as an idealized wooden shank.

I do KNOW that graphite golf shafts "whip" and this is a very desirable attribute when it releases.
The reason that they don't whip as much to the side as back/forward is that the head is aligned when it is glued on.

Finally to my question:
Do you (does WNG) keep the plane of max shaft stiffness ACROSS the direction of hammer travel to minimize side to side whip ?

DISCLAIMER: Not a piano technician, not even a half decent golfer either

BDB,
Wood hammer shanks do drift around over time with humidity changes. Thus the hammer spacing changes a little. W,N&G composite shanks do not do that.

Norbert,
First you slam the W,N&G product-and now you offer to represent them for a fee!!

You do have GUMPTION!

What I see lacking is professional knowledge. I have not seen anything in your PW post's to indicate you bring any real information to this discussion.

And I also. We have thought it was "normal" because there were no other options. But "normal" has never been ideal -- which is why there has been the attempt to use other materials for several decades (even bakelite back in the 20s/30s).

Knowledge will come with experience. WN&G components and Isaac hammers are both like heroin . . . once you try them, you're hooked forever and can't go back to the old materials.

So undoubtedly you had convinced all your customers that every time the humidity changed by some percentage, you had to re-regulate their piano again, right?

I didn't "slam" the W,N&G product but did offer to represent them for a fee during my next visit to several Euro makers.

But I din't promise I would be successful...



Thanks for being instructed by someone in the know.

My "lack of professional knowledge" however appears to be shared by all of Europe's premium piano makers including mighty U.S. Steinway and Yamaha the great.

They seems to be a strange conspiracy of agreement re this issue.

Perhaps you could book yourself a trip and go enlighten them.

Norbert

I disagree here, Norbert's reporting of Renner's tests is the closest thing we have to a reason why Renner stays with wood. So far, we have no reason to believe he is wrong (that is, his report of what Renner said is accurate).

It is true that Norbert is not a technician and doesn't have the experience that you have, but his report from Renner is still interesting.

He threw the trump card again!

It's not about me at all.

Personally I don't care much one way or the other.

It's not a question that carbon made actions may not be very well functioning actions but it is less clear if they are "superior" to those made by others.

With great precision, scrutiny, dedication and experience.

I'm challenged by those who constantly claim technical superiority of new materials without the real test of time.

Add to this the nasty tone by some when expressing the slightest doubt and things appear to become a bit more dubious yet. Personal interests anybody? Inflated egos?

Fact of matter I have been interested in this subject for long time and spoken to a good number of people about it.

In my mind it is remarkable that a company like Renner which spend a great deal of money on their research in conjunction with world renowned Max Plank Institute of Germany, came to the conclusion they did.

In fact, they may be upset I am talking about the project.

Their final words were this: "We're not interested to publish our results and help others. Let them find out later and come to a conclusion of their own"

Words of wisdom or words by idiots?

Norbert

Greetings, Mr Burgett-

I do not know the piano industry like some others around here, so forgive me in advance, but is this a Mr. Burgett of the family of Burgett Pianos ->PianoDisc->M&H->WNG? If this is the case, this really is a tour de force with distinction in entrepreneurship. Kudos.

From the marketing point of view, I suggest dropping much of the comparisons to wood actions--it does not help you. Drop comments about the flex of wood, forget the effects of humidity on wood (except to the institutional techs). Such comments are annoying to people quite happy with the wood action. Find the ways to play on your strengths (stability, high level of refinement in regulation capability, what have you), but act like wood actions never existed. My 2c.

Putting my technical hat on, we know the polymers are much less sensitive to moisture. What I would be concerned with from my knowledge of materials is the temperature dependence- the thermal coefficients of expansion of the polymers leading to loosening/tightening on the pins that require the tolerance of several mils; for example, as a piano goes from a drafty cold practice room to the bright lights during a performance. Maybe it turns out it is not and issue for one reason or another, or you have it solved, etc, but some theoretical understanding of this item here would be interesting to me.

Best regards-

Greetings, michael..
We would have to presume, that after several generations, Kawai has well optimized things.

I was a hair away from buying one myself, 'till the S&S I actually got came up on Craigs list for a price that worked for me.

Best regards-