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#2259819 - 04/10/14 03:21 PM Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
I need help: At the end of measure 3 the pedal is up and stopped the sound, but the D flat at beginning of measure 4 is a Tie note not to be played, and so the note will not sound. Why D flat is there but it has no sound?

Regards,
Brian

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#2259834 - 04/10/14 03:37 PM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
The pedal change is done quickly enough that the low D flat continues to ring. A concert grand has a string with sufficient mass that the brief contact with the damper felt has little effect. As pianos get smaller the change needs to be more rapid.

You only need enough damper to mute the treble strings sufficiently that the harmonies don't interfere; a quick half lift of the pedal and rapid repress should do.
_________________________
Richard

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#2259843 - 04/10/14 03:54 PM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: zrtf90]
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
Thank you Richard, I understand now.

Brian

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#2259846 - 04/10/14 04:01 PM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: zrtf90]
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
"The pedal change is done quickly enough that the low D flat continues to ring"

This action reminds me of sport car manual gear shifting when taking a fast turn: double clutch and blip the gas while doing heavy braking at the same time -- very quick clutch pedal change by the left foot but unfortunately I need the right foot for piano smile

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#2259867 - 04/10/14 04:36 PM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18127
Loc: Victoria, BC
Many pianists, including professionals, will ignore the extent of the tie (five measures) and very gently repeat the low D-flat to keep it sounding whenever the sustain on their particular instrument starts to die beyond hearing. If that is an acceptable option, it shouldn't be restruck as you would a "regular" note, but just lightly stroked to keep it sounding.

This can be a satisfactory solution :
- if the bass on the piano you are playing does not have a significant sustain, and
- if you are intent on having the D-flat sound throughout the tied measures.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2259885 - 04/10/14 05:17 PM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
dannylux Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 1820
Loc: Connecticut
According to Alexander Siloti, Liszt's pupil, you should ignore that tie and play the low D flat, because that's the way Liszt actually played it. Siloti had Liszt's permission and blessing to edit any of his compositions. ("Siloti is always right.")

You can find Siloti's edition of the score by searching 'Liszt-Siloti Consolation download'. Click on the green PDF link, not the blue link.


Mel
_________________________
My Recordings

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

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#2259893 - 04/10/14 05:36 PM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
Wow, it's getting more interesting!!!

Thank you all for your advices.

Regards,
Brian

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#2260065 - 04/11/14 02:18 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1381
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
PMFJI --

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious:

If your piano has a "true sostenuto" pedal, you can use it to play the music _exactly as written_.

Depress the pedal right after you hit the low "D", before lifting your finger off it.

That will keep the damper on the "D" -- and _only_ that damper -- lifted until you release the pedal.

That pedal is the left-hand pedal on grands, and 3-pedal digital pianos. I don't think it appears on uprights.

. Charles

PS -- this is one answer to the often asked question:

. . . When do you use the sostenuto pedal ?

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#2260084 - 04/11/14 04:28 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: Charles Cohen]
JohnSprung Offline
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Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1434
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen

That pedal is the left-hand pedal on grands, and 3-pedal digital pianos. I don't think it appears on uprights.

. Charles

PS -- this is one answer to the often asked question:

. . . When do you use the sostenuto pedal ?


In my experience,the left is usually Una Corda, which slides the whole action over a tad to the right, while Sostenuto is the middle pedal. Damper lift is on the right.

I try to not use sostenuto, though my acoustic piano has it. The reason is that a lot of pianos don't have it, and on many that do, it doesn't work right. Perhaps if you play classical music in high class venues you can depend on sostenuto. If you play hotels, bars, and restaurants, it's best to be prepared to do without it.

Some of the early 20th century composers -- Ravel and Debussy -- specify the use of sostenuto in their scores. Before that, it wasn't widely available, so composers didn't call for it.

All in all, after more than a century, sostenuto is an idea that's sort of twisting in the wind, somewhere between success and failure.
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2260291 - 04/11/14 03:08 PM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: JohnSprung]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18127
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
[...]Some of the early 20th century composers -- Ravel and Debussy -- specify the use of sostenuto in their scores. Before that, it wasn't widely available, so composers didn't call for it.
[...]


I have not seen a single work by Debussy - and I admit that I haven't seen everything he has written for piano - where the use of the sostenuto pedal is indicated.

It is well known that Debussy's own piano did not have a sostenuto, so it is doubtful that he would have indicated its use in his scores. Moreover, while the sostenuto was invented by a Frenchman in the 19th century, it is even questionable whether Debussy knew of it, since it wasn't introduced into European pianos until well into the 20th century.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2260551 - 04/12/14 02:45 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1381
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
I don't know if Debussy specified the use of the sostenuto pedal, but he wrote stuff that can only be played "as written" if you use it.

To start, look at measures 10-15 of "Claire de Lune". It's possible to pedal through each measure, but it'll muddy the sound. With a sostenuto pedal, you can keep the damper up on the bass note(s), and get the higher parts exciting their resonances.

. Charles

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#2262889 - 04/17/14 02:16 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: Charles Cohen]
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen
PMFJI --

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious:

If your piano has a "true sostenuto" pedal, you can use it to play the music _exactly as written_.

Depress the pedal right after you hit the low "D", before lifting your finger off it.

That will keep the damper on the "D" -- and _only_ that damper -- lifted until you release the pedal.


That pedal is the left-hand pedal on grands, and 3-pedal digital pianos. I don't think it appears on uprights.

. Charles

PS -- this is one answer to the often asked question:

. . . When do you use the sostenuto pedal ?


"Play the music as written", but where in the score it says to use sostennuto?

Question:on bar#9,the high F is tied but the pedal is released at middle.Do I have to play the high F again with the low C?

Regards,
Brian

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#2263478 - 04/18/14 11:23 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: briandang
"Play the music as written", but where in the score it says to use sostennuto?
It doesn't say to use the sostenuto pedal but using it will allow you to play the music as it is scored, i.e. sustaining the D flat during the release of the damper pedal for the harmony changes.

Originally Posted By: briandang
Question:on bar#9,the high F is tied but the pedal is released at middle.Do I have to play the high F again with the low C?
The F is held until the E is played so the pedal change doesn't affect the note.
_________________________
Richard

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#2264447 - 04/20/14 01:37 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
Richard, but the pedal is up before the low C and hi E,and so how to hold F until E is played?

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#2264912 - 04/21/14 11:00 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
The melody is played with RH. The bass and accompaniment played with LH and the pedal operated by the right foot.

Are you, perchance, playing the bass with RH, the first three measures and M44 excepted? <gasp>
_________________________
Richard

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#2264994 - 04/21/14 03:50 PM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: zrtf90]
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
The melody is played with RH. The bass and accompaniment played with LH and the pedal operated by the right foot.

Are you, perchance, playing the bass with RH, the first three measures and M44 excepted? <gasp>



Sorry Richard, but I just dont see what you wrote above has any relation to my question about the tied note and pedal change. I feel like a dumb a** for such a simple question.

I do play the melody with RH and the bass with LH.

Let me detail of the sequence of how I plays, starting at bar 9:

RH plays high Fb while the tied note low Db sounds, then LH plays G-Db-Bb-Fb-Db, then pedal up/down which kills all sound, then LH reaches down and plays low C while the tied note high Fb supposed to sound, and here is my question: the tied note high Fb cant sound since the pedal changed had killed the sound; isnt it?

Regards,
Brian

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#2265011 - 04/21/14 04:42 PM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: briandang
I feel like a dumb a** for such a simple question.
This usually suggests that someone has misunderstood something. Don't worry about it. smile

Originally Posted By: briandang
RH plays high Fb while the tied note low Db sounds...
All the F's are natural. If you're playng E's here (Fb's) I'm sure your ear will have told you.

Originally Posted By: briandang
... then LH plays G-Db-Bb-Fb-Db, then pedal up/down which kills all sound, and here is my question: the tied note high Fb cant sound since the pedal changed had killed the sound; isnt it?
The pedal up doesn't kill all sound. Keys that are still held down will continue to sound.

The last F in M8 I play with 5 but change to 3 for the F in M9. I continue to hold this down until after the pedal change.
_________________________
Richard

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#2265102 - 04/21/14 09:28 PM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: zrtf90]
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Originally Posted By: briandang
RH plays high Fb while the tied note low Db sounds...
All the F's are natural. If you're playng E's here (Fb's) I'm sure your ear will have told you.

Originally Posted By: briandang
... then LH plays G-Db-Bb-Fb-Db, then pedal up/down which kills all sound, and here is my question: the tied note high Fb cant sound since the pedal changed had killed the sound; isnt it?
The pedal up doesn't kill all sound. Keys that are still held down will continue to sound.

The last F in M8 I play with 5 but change to 3 for the F in M9. I continue to hold this down until after the pedal change.



You're right that the F's are natural white keys.

Thank you Richard, I finally understand how to "play" the tied note F in M9. I always thought the pedal up would kill all sound, but of course we all know without pedal any held down key will sustain the sound smile My mind must has been tangled up badly by this piece's LH RH timing.

Many thanks again.

Brian

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#2273071 - 05/09/14 01:43 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
Bar #34 why G# instead of the normal Ab? Is it because bar 33 has A?

Thanks,
Brian

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#2273154 - 05/09/14 08:09 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
hreichgott Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1088
Loc: western MA, USA
The harmony is written as moving from F major (bar 33) to E major (bar 34) to A minor (bar 35). G# fits E major.

He could have written F major to F flat major to B double flat minor, in which case he would have used A flats in bar 34, but let's be grateful he did not!
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sometimes a bagatelle is just a bagatelle. Beethoven Op. 33
Daily 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2, Pischna
Loving Faur/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
Always a fan of Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2273527 - 05/10/14 02:21 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
Thank you for the answer, and you can tell I don't have know much in music theory, but this makes sense for people familiar with the scales.

Brian

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#2273603 - 05/10/14 10:53 AM Re: Consolation 3 and sustain pedal question [Re: briandang]
briandang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/14
Posts: 21
Thank you for the answer, and you can tell I don't have know much in music theory, but this makes sense for people familiar with the scales.

Brian

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