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Joined: Apr 2014
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OP
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As I asked previusly I am looking for analysed sonata form (thematic/motivic groups, transitions etc.) if posible on score. One of my problem is to find first thema in recapitulation. I know that Chopin broke some rules but maybe I missed something.
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One of my problem is to find first thema in recapitulation. I'm afraid that's a problem you won't solve.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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One of my problem is to find first thema in recapitulation. I'm afraid that's a problem you won't solve. Sprehod: This is a famous example of 'bending' the details of the form. There isn't exactly any first theme in the recap. It is often said (and I agree) that the reason it still works so well, and why it's still clearly "sonata form," is that the development section is so full of the 1st theme that it functions as both development section and 1st theme of the recap. BTW, the 1st movement of his second sonata is the same way.
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OP
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It is often said (and I agree) that the reason it still works so well, and why it's still clearly "sonata form," is that the development section is so full of the 1st theme that it functions as both development section and 1st theme of the recap.
So recap starts with "a tempo sostenuto", 2nd theme? Or 14 bars before that?
Last edited by sprehod; 04/11/14 04:12 PM.
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OK, a study group has apparently been formed, so it's all good. I was about to post more, but that would be superfluous. Good hunting!
Die Krebs gehn zurucke, Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke, Die Karpfen viel fressen, Die Predigt vergessen.
Die Predigt hat g'fallen. Sie bleiben wie alle.
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OP
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OK, a study group has apparently been formed, so it's all good. I was about to post more, but that would be superfluous. Good hunting! I just don't get you...
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None of that has anything to do with the OP's question. You have got to be the most useless troll on these forums. You never offer any real value to any discussion. Every one of your comments is a short, pompous slap or snipe. It's as if you're here to fuel your obvious superiority complex. Pathetic. Agreed. No attempt has been made to answer the OP's question. If you can't help or answer a question then why would anyone post a statement saying "none of that has anything to do with the OP's question." It is a pointless and inconsiderate remark with no value whatsoever.
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@Mark_C,
I would be very careful in attempting to defend other forum members statements (i.e., like Polyphonist) unless you are already a close and personal friend with this member as I see nothing but snide and inconsiderate remarks being made most of the time.
If a member doesn't have something constructive to add to the discussion then it's probably best that they don't stick their nose in, period. Being a shrink (or, having a degree in your field of expertise) doesn't mean you have the right to support other members positions especially if you don't know who that person really is, or, their real life's situation. Avoid weirdos (is my advice) since you never know what is up their sleeves. They might be coming after you, next.
I am saying this since I don't think you are doing anyone any favors in taking up sides with anyone in this forum.
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This is all find and dandy, pv88, except for the fact that Poly was right. caters's post had nothing to do with OP's question. Is it not okay to even point that out? What if people behaved this way in the real world?
It could be argued that ultra-sensitivity shouldn't be allowed on the forums either.
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Bailie's book (The Pianist's Repertoire - Chopin, A Graded Practical Guide) and Vol.VII (Sonatas) of the Paderewski edition of Chopin's Works have a good analysis.
Music is my best friend.
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Okay, so "Poly was right" in the given statement - so what? It is the condescending and snobbish attitude that stinks of putrid rot.
Extra note:
I would like for Mark to speak on his own behalf in regards to deliberately standing up for and defending other members. I would never do that myself, although he is free to post whatever he wants as this is an open forum.
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So recap starts with "a tempo sostenuto", 2nd theme? Or 14 bars before that? The question you're asking shows that you have the right idea. It's debatable where we should say it starts. Some people might say it's not, but they're wrong. P.S. IMO this is part of the greatness of Chopin's skill with form -- the way that a section functions sort of as two sections and how it flows and grows in a way that defies exact analysis. It is often said (way too often) that he wasn't good at handling form. He was one of the greatest ever at handling form, but he molded the forms to the material, and in some instances he created his own forms. Like, the Fantaisie in F minor has a very definite form, which can be expressed with the obligatory capital letters that musicologists like to use and which we could say is sort of sonata form or rondo form or sonata-rondo form or something, but which is a unique form that arises just from the material of the piece. Okay, so "Poly was right" in the given statement - agreed.
Extra note:
I would like for Mark to speak on his own behalf in regards to deliberately standing up for and defending other members. I would never do that myself, although he is free to post whatever he likes as this is an open forum. Need I say, I don't agree. Let me put it stronger: I think you're wrong. It is important and even valuable sometimes to lend support to another member and another post, and to help clarify a situation in that manner. In fact, it's one of the main ways that things get clarified and even decided, both on the internet and in real life. P.S. to Joel: Thanks.
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Mark,
You "quoted" me too quickly as you didn't copy over all of my post, above.
The complete quote is:
"[Okay, so "Poly was right" in the given statement - so what? It is the condescending and snobbish attitude that stinks of putrid rot.]"
Also, "real life" can be far different than what you perceive from statements made by members in these forums - it would be wrong to assume that you know (or, can analyze) everything.
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@Mark_C,
I would be very careful in attempting to defend other forum members statements (i.e., like Polyphonist) unless you are already a close and personal friend with this member as I see nothing but snide and inconsiderate remarks being made most of the time. Well put, though I'm not surprised by the members who are choosing to defend Poly, all of whom seem to be as equally lacking in social comprehension as Poly himself. This is all find and dandy, pv88, except for the fact that Poly was right. The point has flown far above your head. It is important and even valuable sometimes to lend support to another member and another post, and to help clarify a situation in that manner.
You, too, are not understanding. The content of Poly's post does not matter. It's very obvious, to anyone who reads Poly's posts, that he does not add value to any discussions, and merely posts just because he likes to see his own words. His posts are short not because he his intelligently terse, but because he has something of a superiority complex; his posts are littered with arrogance and his inflated ego adds nothing of value to discussions. These are objective observations, not just my "opinions". Anyone who fails to see the patterns in Poly's posts is either completely oblivious to the fact, or knowing of it without admittance. Actually, I think it's hilarious that these members, who I predicted would come forth, are trying to defend this megalomaniac narcissist.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind." R. W. Emerson
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To Atrys: Something you're ignoring: It could be felt (as I do) that both the thread and caters himself would benefit from a very direct statement, and I thought Poly did it just fine. I don't find anything rude or otherwise objectionable in his post at all. I expect you to disagree. That's fine. But I'm not failing to understand anything here.
Last edited by Mark_C; 04/11/14 06:35 PM.
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@Atrys,
I couldn't have said it better - and, why does one have to be so crudely arrogant?
Your quote:
"[The content of Poly's post does not matter. It's very obvious, to anyone who reads Poly's posts, that he does not add value to any discussions, and merely posts just because he likes to see his own words. His posts are short not because he his intelligently terse, but because he has something of a superiority complex; his posts are littered with arrogance and his inflated ego adds nothing of value to discussions.
These are objective observations, not just my "opinions". Anyone who fails to see the patterns in Poly's posts is either completely oblivious to the fact, or knowing of it without admittance.]"
Such posts (by any/all members) should be completely ignored.
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I don't find anything rude or otherwise objectionable in his post at all. I think this is the main issue. It's a bit funny, actually. The entire argument against Poly's post hinges on the assumption that it was ill-intended, but since there's no reason to think such a thing, I have no problem with it at all. I really can't imagine how someone could take offense to it.
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Looking at this thread from a purely objective basis, I'm trying to understand how a simple request for an analysis of a piano piece went so very much awry. Specifically, I'm having difficulty understanding how these 2 comments: None of that has anything to do with the OP's question. He wasn't. He was asking for an analysis of it. Could justify these comments: You have got to be the most useless troll on these forums. You never offer any real value to any discussion. Every one of your comments is a short, pompous slap or snipe. It's as if you're here to fuel your obvious superiority complex. Pathetic. Oh lord, you are so full of yourself. It's so obvious to anyone that reads your posts. You must be a very sad, lonely man to troll forums and contribute nothing of value with ~6200 posts. Or these: (about JoelW): The point has flown far above your head. (about Marc C): You, too, are not understanding. (about Polyphonist): . . . he has something of a superiority complex; his posts are littered with arrogance and his inflated ego adds nothing of value to discussions.
These are objective observations, not just my "opinions". What I see is that a couple of rather terse, dry, objective comments led to a string of invective vitriol used as ad hominen attacks against anyone not in agreement with a particular point of view. The extremely negative emotionality and hyperbolic tone of the responses seem way out of proportion to the stimulus. To claim that these comments are not opinions but "objective observations" is, frankly, risible. Although I see much hysterical complaining that a certain poster is adding nothing to the thread, I don't see anything on-topic in any of these hurled criticisms, either. Unless you consider this to contribute additional value: Now here's an example of a post with value. Referring to this: Piano Sonata No.3, Op.58 (Chopin, Frédéric) has piano sonata no. 3 both recordings and scores. Right up top is the original one by chopin and below that is the 1st edition, both of those are in manuscript so you might not understand either because it is hard to read original manuscript. It should be easy for you to understand the one below the 1st edition which is part of a catalogue known as Friedrich Chopin's Werke just like how when I was talking about that K 545 in the hardest piano piece ever written thread I had a link to the PDF and it said Sonatae no. 15 fur das Pianoforte which is german for Piano Sonata no. 15 and so Mozart's 15th sonata in F and 16th sonata in C often get confused when you look at the catalogue Wolfgang Amadeus Mozarts Werke. Well, I suppose there may be some value to pointing out the value of the post quoted here. However, its child-like and overly-detailed construction does seem to be somewhat out of place in a forum populated with dedicated amateur and professional pianists, many of whom undoubtedly use IMSLP on a regular basis. Whatever value it may add regarding IMSLP is weakened by the fact that it clearly was not what the OP was asking for. The poster's latter attempts to gloss over the fact that he misunderstood the original request (and to consider that an analysis "is highly opinionated because some sad parts other people think aren't") don't help build the case around value here. The rambling, off-topic bit about the numbering of Mozart sonatas is just out of place. So, I really don't get it. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
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Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
If you haven't understood the thread so far, you never will.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind." R. W. Emerson
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....So, I really don't get it. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. You got it fine.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
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