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#2261442 - 04/14/14 07:56 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: drumour]
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted By: drumour
I can see why they would say it's an appoggiatura - an unprepared dissonance which resolves by step. But they should also have accepted accented passing-note as, if you like, a more specific kind of appoggiatura. It certainly is not a suspension where the dissonant note is held over from the previous chord, in which it is a harmony-note, and then resolved by step.


John


Thanks for the explanation. smile
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#2261452 - 04/14/14 08:07 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Originally Posted By: KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way?


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.

Ah, but I am asking you guys here as musicians and teachers. smile What are your own thoughts?


I think there is more point to it when the example is less obscure.

It is an appoggiatura, but that's not exactly a mainstream usage for the music I run into or am interested in. Isn't the term and usage limited to a fairly short time period?
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#2261674 - 04/14/14 05:34 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Online   content
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At the moment in question you have, for a moment, and accented, a Bbsus chord. It resolves IMMEDIATELY to a Bm chord.

So there IS a suspension feel, but as others have mentioned, a suspension in traditional analysis normally has the suspension start early and is tied over.

Appoggiatura is not the best answer because of what goes before.

I have to agree with those who said accented passing tone. Anyone who does not accept that as a superior answer has no business writing these tests. frown

And I'm assuming it is "multiple guess".
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#2261725 - 04/14/14 07:26 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Offline
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I didn't use "sus" because in those kinds of exams it's not used or recognized, and I found quite a few classically trained people don't seem to be familiar with it. But sus is exactly what it is. Thank you for pointing that out, Gary.

Quote:
... a suspension in traditional analysis normally has the suspension start early and is tied over.

I'm tempted to highlight the word "traditional" because that is the problem with these kinds of exercises. Btw this is not my original idea; it was pointed out to me a few years ago, and since then I see the point. In traditional music theory we are given an artificial model which is based on a simplified version of Baroque music frozen in time. (Baroque itself evolved).

When preparing for these kinds of exams (or preparing the student for this kind of exam) we have to keep in mind "what the examiner wants" and "what slot to put things into". If I were writing the exam I would write in "accented passing tone". But I would hope that my teacher would let me understand what can actually be heard in the music, which is beyond these slots. (Or if I were teaching it, to do that.) That is the reason why I asked the question that I did earlier. smile

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#2261938 - 04/15/14 04:44 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Mark Polishook Offline
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As Polyphonist has said a few times already it's an accented passing tone. That's all it is. No ambiguity. No uncertainty .. Nothing. Just accented passing tone.

What makes this stuff seem obscure - and perhaps even entirely useless - is the brevity of the reply from the so-called chair who said the answer key says 'blah-blah-blah. If all they're testing is the ability to label something in reference to an answer key THAT's the problem.
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#2261943 - 04/15/14 05:00 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
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Mark, I said that as well...

But in all honesty, if we look at the music itself, there's a bit of an ambiguity going on there... Yes, that particular note is an accented passing note, only that the previous note (the G) comes in as an 8th, and not in a "straight", diatonic line with the rest of the previous notes. In fact it is a sequence, which is not diatonic that comes into play from the previous bar.

So, while I'm the one who mentioned the accented passing note, I am questioning, in a more general sense, the use of such a question in such a difficult passage.
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#2262004 - 04/15/14 08:12 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Sorry Nicholas!

What I should have said is -

"As Nicholas and Polyphonist have said several times in this thread it's an accented passing tone."

I agree with you on the larger context. For me anytime the reply comes back in the form of " that's the answer on the sheet," well that's a problem. So the use of the question as you point out should be questioned (is questionable).

But, anyway, you did say pretty much all of this earlier in the discussion!


Edited by Mark Polishook (04/15/14 08:13 AM)
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#2262012 - 04/15/14 08:29 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
So, while I'm the one who mentioned the accented passing note, I am questioning, in a more general sense, the use of such a question in such a difficult passage.


Any test question that can generate this much discussion (and at least mild disagreement) from experienced teachers and interested amateurs would seem to be a bad question to ask a young student.
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#2262051 - 04/15/14 09:46 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Mark Polishook]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Sorry Nicholas!

What I should have said is -

"As Nicholas and Polyphonist have said several times in this thread it's an accented passing tone."

I agree with you on the larger context. For me anytime the reply comes back in the form of " that's the answer on the sheet," well that's a problem. So the use of the question as you point out should be questioned (is questionable).

But, anyway, you did say pretty much all of this earlier in the discussion!

Not to mention that "accented passing tone" is not what they wanted according to their answer key - it was appoggiatura. frown

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#2262055 - 04/15/14 09:52 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
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You know...

Now there's a different issue at hand:

a. How to persuade CM to take on someone else to write the tests?
b. If the above doesn't happen (cause I've been hearing stories about CM for quite some time now), how to persuade the parents to NOT ask for CM testing... hmmm...
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#2262174 - 04/15/14 02:26 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
You know...

Now there's a different issue at hand:

a. How to persuade CM to take on someone else to write the tests?
b. If the above doesn't happen (cause I've been hearing stories about CM for quite some time now), how to persuade the parents to NOT ask for CM testing... hmmm...


If there's one esoteric question on the test, it might be no big deal. Everybody will miss it except by luck.

If there are many that would be a problem.

Long ago in grad school I had a course in test design, and I vaguely remember we had to do statistical tests on each question and evaluate the test itself.
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#2262239 - 04/15/14 04:31 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Mark Polishook]
Gary D. Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Sorry Nicholas!

What I should have said is -

"As Nicholas and Polyphonist have said several times in this thread it's an accented passing tone."

Originally Posted By: Gary


Appoggiatura is not the best answer because of what goes before.

I have to agree with those who said accented passing tone.

Ignored again. smile
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#2262245 - 04/15/14 04:45 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
AZNpiano Online   happy
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I wish people wouldn't take ONE test question to represent the entire testing system. It's one bad question. That happens.

The last time I checked, MTAC is hiring test writers for CM. If you want your work to be analyzed, dissected, and scrutinized to death, please apply.
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#2262261 - 04/15/14 05:05 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas]
Gary D. Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Mark, I said that as well...

But in all honesty, if we look at the music itself, there's a bit of an ambiguity going on there...

I said that too.
Quote:

Yes, that particular note is an accented passing note, only that the previous note (the G) comes in as an 8th, and not in a "straight", diatonic line with the rest of the previous notes.

What G?

The core of what is happening from M5 through M6 is basically Gb (maj7) to Fm to Bb. I see no G natural anywhere.

Because the last two notes of Measure 5 are Eb and Db, and they are the same length, if we were to replace the Eb quarter with a "tiny note" and follow it with the Db as a half note, suggesting divide the "big note" in half in value, it would work pretty much like the same idea in Mozart. It's by no means not impossible to see this as an appoggiatura.

To me a fully intelligent answer would pick BOTH possibilities.
Quote:

So, while I'm the one who mentioned the accented passing note, I am questioning, in a more general sense, the use of such a question in such a difficult passage.

I said the same thing. I still say it.

The problem is a simplistic test. I believe you are saying the same thing. smile
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#2262410 - 04/15/14 11:34 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Yeah G flat and Eb, etc... I didn't use any accidentals in any of my posts, plus I did not notice the clef change (in my first post, but not the subsequence ones)...

And, you did say the same thing... Sorry... :-/


Edited by Nikolas (04/15/14 11:35 PM)
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#2265326 - 04/22/14 02:42 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1027
Loc: Irvine, CA
What should I do next?

My student's score is 99.99333%. He missed only this question, out of 150 total points.

For me, to argue and win is not the point, it doesn't effect my student's score or whatsoever.

For me, I want to know the truth. If the truth is having multiple answers, I like to know that they are willing to accept a slightly different answer that is different than the answer key as long as it make sense.

I am totally agree with TimR that a "grey question" like this should no appear on the test for merely CM10 student (not even college level eh?).

I am also totally agree with Mark Polishook that the problem that I have now is that the reply I got from the authorities is....that is the answer on the answer sheet...that is it...period...no more discussion....(this is not the exact word, but this is how I read it.)

What should I do next?
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#2265330 - 04/22/14 02:50 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
My student's score is 99.99333%. He missed only this question, out of 150 total points.

That certainly wouldn't give him a score of 99.99.
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#2265332 - 04/22/14 02:52 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Polyphonist]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Loc: Irvine, CA
Hihi...I am bad at math...that is 99.33%
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#2265684 - 04/23/14 03:09 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
AZNpiano Online   happy
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5588
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
What should I do next?

Do nothing.

It's just one question.

Life goes on.
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#2265751 - 04/23/14 08:54 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
What should I do next?


Your math isn't bad, that answer was at least half right.

That's a pretty dedicated student to get 149/150, and I'm guessing is a bit of a perfectionist.

You might want to explain to him/her that the question was gray and that their answer had some merit. It showed some understanding and some thought.

And then........if there is ever going to be a need for this student to understand when to use an appogiatura and when to use a passing tone, in the type of music they'll be playing, you might want to go just a bit deeper and be sure they know it, intellectually and in practice.

Is it trivia memorized for the test, never to be encountered again? or something more fundamental to their future development? that makes a difference.

A student somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum can have a very hard time letting go of a grade like this, and may obsess over it for weeks.
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#2265799 - 04/23/14 11:29 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Loc: Irvine, CA
It was the mom that is not letting go...
I sent out email to explain the "grey question" like this sometimes occurs in the test. I explained that the teacher who corrected it has to follow the answer sheet. I explain that sometimes there are more than one answer to the questions, but only one would be accepted by the evaluator. Student said thanks (to my impression, he is totally okay with it, he is a smart teenager), but mom continuously to ask if I hear anything back from the chair about this case.
The chair just told me the answer is appoggiatura without further explanation or whatsoever.
I personally think that if the authorities can recognize and agree that it is a grey question, then it is an organization that always think there is still space for improvements. People are not perfect, organization are not perfect either. We all do mistakes we all do have space for improvements.


Edited by ezpiano.org (04/23/14 11:39 AM)
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#2265863 - 04/23/14 02:03 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A454.7 Offline
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That example in no way sounds or functions like an appoggiatura!!! Composition comes before theory: in this case we have a technical loop-hole with the theoretical definition. Issues like this occur when theorists [over]think, instead of listen. Someone was trying to be clever; instead they demonstrated that they don't now how to listen to music. Which begs the question: what's the point?!?

That was an accented non-chord tone (aka accented passing tone).


Edited by A443 (04/23/14 02:15 PM)

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#2265928 - 04/23/14 04:35 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A454.7]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: A443
That example in no way sounds or functions like an appoggiatura!!!


It does sound like an appogiatura to my ears; perhaps I misunderstand the function.

What, pray tell, IS the function of an appogiatura?

(not even wanting to get into the function of the acciacatura so often mistakenly confused with it)
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#2265943 - 04/23/14 05:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A454.7 Offline
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@TimR, did you listen to the YouTube example that was given?

Based on that recording, are you really saying that the example sounds like an appogiatura? Or did you simply play/read the isolated notes in question out of context?

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#2265947 - 04/23/14 05:28 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Offline
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The way these things are probably set up, is that you start with a list of things that are to be taught at a given grade level. I went along the RCM, but this is probably similar. Once the terms are taught, they also have to be examined since there are exams and grades. So somebody is tasked with finding an example of an appoggiatura or whatever, to stick into the exam, and it starts with the definition.

All of these things can be taught without ever referring to sound; like a combination of algebra and geometry. One can fill out work books, memorize things, without ever getting at sound. The exam itself will not involve sound. How many students are able to audiate?

I just looked for an "official" definition of appoggiatura and found this:
http://www.theflipsideforum.com/index.php?topic=4355.10;wap2

Where we find:
Originally Posted By: above source
Accented Passing Notes
These are a type of appoggiatura, and are not as common as unaccented passing notes. They occur on the beat and fill in the gap between two pitches. They are usually found in descending scalic passages, but can sometimes occur ascending. In chorale harmony, one passing note may be inserted between consonant pitches a 3rd apart. Usually the note before the accented passing note will be a consonance, however it is possible to have an accented passing note after an unaccented passing note in a scalic passage.

There is a much longer section of several paragraphs specifically on appoggiaturas.

If somebody is going by this type of definition (not saying whether it's good or bad), then we can see why they decided on appoggiatura as an answer. Or - that they were seeking an appoggiatura for the exam, and came up with that music to find one.

-----
I printed out the score when the question came up, and played it. However, that was slow playing and what one might hear as an appog. type of leaning might not be there at tempo. And then there is the rhythm, and other elements that were already discussed. If they were looking for appogg. then that piece was probably a poor choice.

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#2265986 - 04/23/14 06:22 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Wait...I am learning too...
Accented Passing Tone = Appoggiatura?
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#2265991 - 04/23/14 06:39 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A454.7 Offline
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We can be pretty sure that is exactly what happen: someone(s) went out in search of a clever example that would/might mess-up a student on an exam. I take issue with that kind of learning and testing, not to mention the aforementioned issue of how historically appoggiatura sound and function--it just looks like an appoggiatura under a microscope, once you pan out you realise: that is compositionally not what is going on at all.

Come on, let's please remember that appoggiaturas have historical connotations: the reason we study them is for their historical significance in breaking counterpoint rules of very early music. The MacDowell example is c.300 years afterwards!

Audiation, as keystring points out, is the entirety of the problem. When you look at a score, you need to be able to hear what you see in your head. That is what the person who chose the example failed to do: audiate.

Point that out, and get your points back!

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#2265992 - 04/23/14 06:41 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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I found this webpage interesting. A443, does this link seem accurate? Or is it still too divorced from sound and historical function?

[Severely edited my original post so as not to speak above my pay grade.]


Edited by PianoStudent88 (04/23/14 07:21 PM)
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#2266006 - 04/23/14 07:19 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A454.7]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: A443

Come on, let's please remember that appoggiaturas have historical connotations: the reason we study them is for their historical significance in breaking counterpoint rules of very early music. The MacDowell example is c.300 years afterwards!


When theory is taught formally, it tends to be based on a simplified and restricted model of Baroque music. It is artificial. When I studied it a few years back, I ended up with 4 books because each one had something missing. One of them had a caveat in the preface, warning teachers that it was a simplification because of the limited knowledge of music that students would have at that stage, and inviting teachers to expand per their judgment. Another book told students that the rules were for the Baroque period - that music has moved on - that rules such as prohibiting parallel fifths was also period-specific. They tried to push beyond the limitations by example by stressing the importance of the tritone, and sneaking that in as much as possible. Nonetheless the book existed to fuel study for the RCM exam. What it tried to do was too ambitious.

The most memorable thing for me was the chapter showing examples of what Bach did, and then warning students not to break the rules that Bach broke. shocked

The book trying to be progressive tried to include music, which most of the harmony theory books don't do. There are about 40 examples from music for each chapter. The problem is that some of the examples are out of context - something being pulled out of the middle of a piece where it is going through a series of modulations, showing an "example" of a rule, but within the whole it is not doing that. It was pointed out to me that this produces poor musical thinking. So in that sense:
Quote:
The MacDowell example is c.300 years afterwards!

Yes, as per the above. It is a poor choice.

But then what is the sense of learning all these terms? Are they for concepts and hearing? Yes, the appoggiatura historically is not what we have in that piece. Nonetheless, one can hear a "leaning" and release, which the appogg. does. Can student and teacher explore and discuss this, and thus develop the ear.

The same was true for the "suspension which isn't". A suspension has a note that is held over and is tied - which we don't have there. But the ear still hears a late developing, after-the-fact - suggested suspension, which is a very interesting thing to explore. And then we have "sus chords" which aren't really talked about in harmony theory, and some of that feel is there.

Anyway, early on I put out the challenge as to why these studies exist, which I hoped might engender some food for thought. If you have a reason why, it might also affect how you decide to teach, and what. Notwithstanding the social pressure by some families to have their kids get high grades in exams, just because.

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#2266009 - 04/23/14 07:28 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A454.7 Offline
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@PianoStudent88, thats a good link. That link explains, from a historical context, how an appoggiatura SOUNDS. That is what is important.

The question is: can you hear it?

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