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#2266011 - 04/23/14 07:29 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
What keystring's story leaves me feeling is that it's useless to study music unless it's one on one with a truly exceptional teacher. Perhaps I get overly discouraged.

Over in the ABF I'm floating a thread about a significantly aurally based way into music: Music - seeking a new way in. This is an experimental idea for me.
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#2266017 - 04/23/14 07:35 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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Posts: 11708
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
It was the mom that is not letting go...

This actually points to an important factor in this whole story. Teaching doesn't happen in a vacuum and you are working in an environment. Lessons are taken for different reasons. Ideally, students would take lessons because they want to learn how to play music well. If exams were taken at all, it would be in order to assess how well the process is going, so that lessons can be tweaked accordingly. But that is not all that exists.

So we know that there is a population of parents who want their students to "take music" in order to have a "well rounded education", and they want to see a bunch of certificates and high grades. Whether the child enjoys music, or learns to play music well, is not that important. This parent seems to be of that group. I don't know how you would answer. Maybe diplomatically?

If your student is more reasonable and actually interested in music, maybe you could turn it into a learning experience. Let him know that music is not always that black and white. In this forum there were about 4 aspects found to this music. What is more important - earning points, or learning something interesting?

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#2266019 - 04/23/14 07:37 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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Loc: Manywheres
@PianoStudent88, it helps to have an exceptional teacher, but YOU simply need to be an independent thinker, and you'll master it in no time.

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#2266021 - 04/23/14 07:40 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: A443
@PianoStudent88, thats a good link. That link explains, from a historical context, how an appoggiatura SOUNDS. That is what is important.

The question is: can you hear it?

Probably not. I often don't hear dissonance well (that is, as something different from consonance), and I can't usually distinguish steps from skips, and I sometimes can't even tell if something fast is changing direction, or which direction it's going if it's tweedly deedling up and down. (Although I guess I don't think of appogiaturas as usually being fast, because I expect you'd want to lean on them a bit to bring them out.)

On the other hand, in the recitatives in the Bach St. John Passion which my chorus sang this spring, I could hear the way the tenor Evangelist ended all his lines with an added note that isn't in the score, and those sounded very distinctive to me. Not dissonant, but very much like coming to rest gently: dah daaah. I think most of those might have been accented passing tones though, not appogiaturas. I could get out my score and listen to the recording (or even better, first listen without the score) and find out if there are two sets of these which sound different: the app's vs. the apn's.

There's a Mozart very early minuet (you know, like K.2 or something that he wrote when he was three or something ridiculous) which has these in it, where I can hear the dissonance. Not sure if those are app's or apn's.
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#2266037 - 04/23/14 08:09 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
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Loc: Irvine, CA
@KS

Music is not only black and white for sure this point my student and myself understand that.

As I told you before, we do not need the 0.67 points back, no, we do not need.

You do not know my student, nor his mom, I hope if you won't categorize her into anything. For sure I know she wants ALL of it that you mentioned above, which is...
1. Well-rounded education
2. Certificates with high grades
3. Student enjoy music
4. Student played well

I do not need to get those 0.67 points back, I just need the organization to realize that....
EITHER -->They can agree that music is not only black and white and hope they can accept some grey color in the test

OR --> Please include only "black and white" music in the test and leave out anything that is grey color in the future.

Again, I do not need those 0.67 points back.

Thanks,
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#2266042 - 04/23/14 08:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1020
Loc: Irvine, CA
BTW...

The MTAC State Board of Directors is seeking to hire individuals to write theory and ear training Certificate of Merit workbooks. Please note that THIS IS A PAID contracted position – not a volunteer position.


Own and have extensive experience with the Finale Notation Software,
Have a keen sense of clean and neat formatting,
Have a striving for excellence and perfection,
Have extensive experience as a CM Teacher,
Be well versed with the requirements in the CM Syllabus,
Be able to honor instructions and deadlines set forth in the CM Workbook Guideline
Be able to accept criticism and be willing to revise work if needed without complaints, and
Be able to communicate regularly via emails.


Here is the link
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#2266043 - 04/23/14 08:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 676
Loc: Leicester, UK
With appogiaturas there are sort of two uses of the word. Here's a summary of one kind of use.

http://www.ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/Q93.html

The description comes from theory of counterpoint.

From a well-known theory text (Aldwell/Schacter): "Metrically strong non chord approached by leap and left by step ... The resolution is almost always down.."

From Peter Schubert's Modal Counterpoint Text (p. 125): "an unprepared accented dissonance." The example shows D leaping up to F with a D underneath the D and C underneath the F. The F then resolves down to E. So that agrees with the Aldwell/Schacter text.

From Peter Schubert's Baroque Counterpoint textbook (p. 244):"a skip into a dissonance .... on a strong beat [that] resolves by step we often call an appogiatura." The examples include a beginning note that leaps up into a dissonance on a strong beat which resolves down by step. That also agrees with Aldwell/Schacter. As does the first description above in the web link. These definitions don't seem to agree with what the test said in the McDowell example was an appogiatura.

On the other hand it's true if we surf around the web there are all kinds of definitions to be found. Some of which agree with the "leap up into a dissonance and resolve down by step" and others which don't agree with that and which make accented passing tones and appogiaturas look like the same thing. But then the question for those sites that don't agree with the history of theory is where do they get their information from?

The CM test writers can use any definition they want to. It's their test. It's their prerogative. If they want to work with answers that are contrary to historical texts, well, sure, they can do that.

But they could also include their definition of an appogiatura in the answer sheet. With a few examples. That way students and teachers could see why the answers are as they are. And teachers and students from that could make up their own minds as to whether or not the test was based on historical established answers and tradition - and informed knowledge of theory - or something else entirely. But what's the answer based on if it's not based on traditional historical theory?

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#2266050 - 04/23/14 08:27 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
@KS

Music is not only black and white for sure this point my student and myself understand that.

As I told you before, we do not need the 0.67 points back, no, we do not need.

You do not know my student, nor his mom, ....


I was taking a stab at answering your question:
Quote:
What should I do next?

by looking at what may be involved.

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#2266053 - 04/23/14 08:27 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11708
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
BTW...

The MTAC State Board of Directors is seeking to hire individuals to write theory and ear training Certificate of Merit workbooks. Please note that THIS IS A PAID contracted position – not a volunteer position.

Own and have extensive experience with the Finale Notation Software,....

What point are you making with this information? What are you trying to say?

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#2266056 - 04/23/14 08:32 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Mark Polishook]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
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Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook

The CM test writers can use any definition they want to. It's their test. It's their prerogative. If they want to work with answers that are contrary to historical texts, well, sure, they can do that.


I am not familiar with the CM. With RCM, there are recommended texts /workbooks. I purchased two for grade 1 harmony, and both presented the same material and the same information and definitions, but from different angles. One of them which I have already mentioned tried to go beyond the concepts listed by the RCM but they contained at least that information. I imagine it is not that much different from when a province creates curriculum guidelines (I'm familiar with Canada) and then textbooks are written following those guidelines.

So how is this with CM. Do they also have set definitions and recommended texts?

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#2266160 - 04/23/14 10:55 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1020
Loc: Irvine, CA
I am a straight forward person. I am sorry if my post offended you, I have no intention in that.


Edited by ezpiano.org (04/23/14 11:54 PM)
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#2266161 - 04/23/14 10:59 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1020
Loc: Irvine, CA
My student's mom is not the kind that you think she is. Yes, she wants all, she wants certificate with high score, and she wants her kids to play good piano and be excellent in piano at the same time. Her kids played in retirement homes, duet for fun, participate in festivals (even when I said he will not win anything) with positive attitude.

My student is very dedicated too. He was hoping to write in his college application essay that he got a perfect (100%) score in his CM Level 10 theory, but now he cannot do so.


Edited by ezpiano.org (04/24/14 12:00 AM)
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#2266212 - 04/24/14 01:39 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5500
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
My student is very dedicated too. He was hoping to write in his college application essay that he got a perfect (100%) score in his CM Level 10 theory, but now he cannot do so.

You can't be serious. This is getting ludicrous.

My worst Advanced student this year got a 96% without even trying. She also "missed" the appoggiatura question. I don't go crazy and bug the CM Chair for that extra point.

Your student and his mother need to seriously get over it. And you need to tell them that.
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#2266282 - 04/24/14 05:00 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1391
Loc: Manywheres
EZpiano.org, so, what are you going to do now? You've been given the ammunition to argue the point. Are you going to do so? Do you understand the issues? Is it really that important to you? And besides, isn't this one of those things that they can simply retake?

Lol...for a college application essay? Really?!? That's what matters to you/them? That is sad...


Edited by A443 (04/24/14 05:28 AM)

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#2266283 - 04/24/14 05:14 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: A443
Explains.org, so, what are you going to do now? You've been given the ammunition to argue the point. Are you going to do so? Do you understand the issues? Is it really that important to you? And besides, isn't this one of those things that they can simply retake?

Lol...for a college application essay? Really?!? That's what matters to you/them? That is sad...
That's not a nice post... Besides that it's up to EZPIANO (and not Explains) to do whatever she pleases. She came here for advice, not for this! frown
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#2266287 - 04/24/14 05:27 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1391
Loc: Manywheres
@nikolas, that was auto correct, my apologies...

Those were serious questions that asked.

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#2266298 - 04/24/14 06:31 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
I realize that, but your choice of phrasing wasn't exactly friendly. Anyhow. ..
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#2266318 - 04/24/14 08:03 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3207
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: A443
@TimR, did you listen to the YouTube example that was given?

Based on that recording, are you really saying that the example sounds like an appogiatura? Or did you simply play/read the isolated notes in question out of context?


I notice you have carefully avoided explaining the function of an appoggiatura. And by function I mean purpose - why do you use one at all? Up to this point all discussion has been on whether a note meets the technical criteria for one, not why it is there.

I am not sure that I know, but here is what I have understood the difference to be.

A passing tone connects to the next note or phrase. An appoggiatura by contrast adds weight and emphasis to the current note. (An acciacatura embellishes the current note)

That understanding affects how I play them. And why else would it be important to even know the term?
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#2266372 - 04/24/14 11:23 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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TimR, "passing tone" is simply a technical term in dry theory" where you have chord 1, then chord 2. Then on the horizontal melodic side you have note 1x moving to note 2y and you want to bridge those two notes. So if note 1x is E, 2y is C, then your "bridging note" is D, giving you E,D,C. Or you often see/hear in a G7 to C; F,E,D,C. That is all that "passing tone" means. We're not into musical expression yet.

But then we get into the musical effect part. Much of the time, our passing tone (which is also a non-chord tone) happens between beats. But sometimes we get it on the beat, in which case this non-chord tone, which is also a passing tone, becomes accented. Hence the answer people gave of "accented passing tone".

Then finally we have the musical meaning (rather than textbook, period-based meaning) of appoggiatura, which is "to lean". So the thing which is a passing note, is also an accented passing note, is also an appoggiatura. In other words, it doesn't have to be either/or - it can be both.

TimR, did you play the passage on the piano.
In fact
A443, in addition to listening to the recording, did you? smile

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#2266395 - 04/24/14 12:04 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1391
Loc: Manywheres
TimR, it makes a difference if you take the time to hear what is compositionally going on. Without doing that, we don't have a common basis on which to discuss what is happening compositionally. And this, after all, is what theory is all about!

You have to understand that composers compose, and theorists come in after the fact and try to organise what has happened long ago. You seem to have this confused: you seem to be saying there are these RULES that composers throughout time should follow.

The appoggiatura is an historically significant breakthrough of a certain time period. If I were to define the term appoggiatura, for you, it must get modified through time and compositions so that you can understand the morphology of its function (i.e., the shading slightly modifies over time).

Let me give you something different to think about: what is and what is not a piano? The development of piano goes through periods: 1) developmentary early c.1700s, 2) evolutionary c.1790-1860, 3) revolutionary c.1880 and 4) modern c.1910 onwards. Technically defining what is piano is has a lot to do with the construction, but in the end, it is really the sound which is what matters and is the defining characteristic. Using this analogy, you are trying to call an early fortepiano a modern piano.

I hope that helps.


Edited by A443 (04/24/14 12:05 PM)
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#2266401 - 04/24/14 12:24 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

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A443, my problem is that I played the passage through on the piano, and if you consider appoggiatura to be a "leaning", i.e. a note is stressed and releases into relaxation, that effect is definitely there.

Quote:
sing this analogy, you are trying to call an early fortepiano a modern piano.

The actual problem lies not with what TimR is trying to call it, but with the exam question itself. They create study material based on the fortepiano and then try to have it applied to an ultra modern piano. In fact, the answer of appoggiatura is not Tim's first of all - the exam answer sheet wants to see "appoggiatura" as the correct answer.

Quote:
If I were to define the term appoggiatura, for you, it must get modified through time and compositions so that you can understand the morphology of its function ..

Doesn't that make everything rather backward? If I teach this, I would want the child to begin with a GENERAL concept - the idea of leaning, or tension releasing or whatever. I would not want the child to begin with specialized usage over say a 50 year period a few years ago, then another specialized usage, and then another. To me, beginning with specialization rather than general ideas is backward. As well, it becomes overwhelming when there is no overall idea to begin with. One simply does not begin with specialized detail, unless you want to end up with memorizers who can excel at a game of musical Trivial Pursuits. (And can they still do music with that?)

I have a question which admittedly is meant to be a bit of a challenge: How would you want to see this material organized ideally? (Throwing this out to anyone).

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#2266462 - 04/24/14 02:48 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3207
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
If I were to define the term appoggiatura, for you, it must get modified through time and compositions so that you can understand the morphology of its function ..

Doesn't that make everything rather backward? If I teach this, I would want the child to begin with a GENERAL concept - the idea of leaning, or tension releasing or whatever.


Yes, exactly.

They should be able to hear the tension.

And then they should learn the reason for using the tension - and the same tension may be called appoggiatura, or passing tone, or color note, or suspension depending on the purpose for which it is used.

(If the appoggiatura is a relic of the baroque age, no longer used, then why teach the term at all?)
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#2266464 - 04/24/14 02:51 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1391
Loc: Manywheres
Appoggiare is Italian: to lean on. The origin for appoggiatura is in Latin which literally means: to support in the direction of.

At its very fundamental core, an appoggiatura doesn't purely function as a dissonant non-chord tone (i.e., tension then release)--this understanding comes more from a later musical understanding of vertical harmony. From an historical standpoint, the appoggiatura more-or-less temporarily separates itself from the rule of dissonance with an unprepared leap--it acts as part of a delayed consonant that reestablishes direction from a previous non-stepwise direction. It is like a directional arrow, unencumbered by the rules of dissonance, pointing towards the direction of consonance. Though seemingly complicated, this is fundamentally how an appoggiatura functions and sounds.

The MacDowell example is a result of a motivic rhythm/melodic pattern which happens to also seemingly create a pattern that resembles that of an appoggiatura. Because that pattern is--in fact--there, appoggiatura is not a complexity wrong answer, however it is not entirely correct either: it implies that one does not know instinctively how an appoggiatura functions within a musical context (i.e, this is the wrong identification of a similar pattern).

So what is the function then? Look at measure 2!

Is there really ANYONE that reads this that will make the argument that m.2 is also and appoggiatura?!? These measures are the same (i.e., m.6 has a reduction of notes and is in a different octave, but it has the EXACT SAME MUSICAL FUNCTION...which is not as an appoggiatura)!!!
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#2266471 - 04/24/14 03:04 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1391
Loc: Manywheres
@ezpiano.org, take what you've learn here and fight back for what you think is right. The point you have made is that they shouldn't include examples that have a grey area, since the person scoring the results are not allowed to make a judgment call. That is a valid point, and you should argue that. If you fail at that level, argue it further up the chain until the issue is resolved. Don't forget to argue that they have ALSO made a blundering error in the exam question itself! No one likes to hear that, or admit to it, but you need to argue that their answer is WRONG.
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Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2266473 - 04/24/14 03:09 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1391
Loc: Manywheres
@keystring, my response to your question about generalised vs. specific learning examples is VERY LONG.

Basically, I think definitions are useless; you need experiences in order to apply learned knowledge. So, I think if you want a student to understand what an appoggiatura is, you need to give them examples of 200 different instances. It is a random number, but they need to have experiences and make their own connections first...in my opinion.


Edited by A443 (04/24/14 03:18 PM)
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#2266476 - 04/24/14 03:17 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1391
Loc: Manywheres
...the MacDowell is a great example of how "learning a definition" devoid of musical context will lead to problems.
_________________________
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#2266557 - 04/24/14 06:20 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4810
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: A443
...the MacDowell is a great example of how "learning a definition" devoid of musical context will lead to problems.

But it's the American Way. The same thing happens in public schools, day after day. That's why we produce parrots who can pass tests, but they don't know anything.

Someone familiar with what an appoggiatura is will simply think of examples. The measure in question doesn't do what an appoggiatura normally does, and that's the end of it.

As for these tests, the inmates are running the asylum. I'd simply cross out the 99. something score and put 100% on it, because if my student wrote accented passing tone, on the beat, the right answer was given.

But this is why I am not a part of any organizations, never was. smile
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#2266600 - 04/24/14 07:54 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1020
Loc: Irvine, CA
Thanks everyone!! I have a solution! If you want to see how I write my case to the organization, please PM me with your email then I will show you.

If you wanted to be quoted and support my case, please PM me with...

Your real name, position/career, why you think this is not an appoggiatura, and lastly, what you think should be the best answer.

If you PM me, I will include your testimony in my case to the organization.

Many thanks!!
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#2266603 - 04/24/14 08:00 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7606
Loc: New York City
I don't think anyone else thinks this is as big a deal as you're making it out to be.
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Polyphonist

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#2266655 - 04/24/14 10:14 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3207
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org

Your real name, position/career, why you think this is not an appoggiatura, and lastly, what you think should be the best answer.


That isn't how I would put it if arguing my case to the board.

It may be that a majority of teachers would agree that accented passing tone is more correct than appoggiatura.

But to say app is wrong is both unpalatable (to the really really smart guy who wrote the test) and not completely defendable, because technically it could meet the criteria.

What I would argue instead is that either answer should be accepted. I would also suggest that they revise the test with a an example of an appoggiatura that can't be mistaken for something else, since obviously they think it is important that the student be able to identify one. I would include a proposed example with my request for adjustment of the test score.
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gotta go practice

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