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#2260775 - 04/12/14 06:02 PM Non Harmonic Tone
ezpiano.org Offline
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MacDowell: To the Sea, Op. 55, No. 1

I am very puzzled:
What is the name of the circled non-harmonic tone in measure 6?

Click for Picture Here
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#2260776 - 04/12/14 06:03 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Thank you for helping!
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#2260779 - 04/12/14 06:03 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
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#2260780 - 04/12/14 06:05 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Polyphonist Offline
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What do you mean the name? It's an accented passing tone.
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#2260781 - 04/12/14 06:06 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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I am thinking passing tone too, but my student's theory test was marked wrong with "passing tone" as answer.

Maybe is something else that I am not enlighten of?


Edited by ezpiano.org (04/12/14 06:07 PM)
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#2260803 - 04/12/14 06:55 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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I don't see anything.

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#2260835 - 04/12/14 08:42 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I am thinking passing tone too, but my student's theory test was marked wrong with "passing tone" as answer.

Maybe is something else that I am not enlighten of?

Your student is correct. The answer key contains a different answer.
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#2260837 - 04/12/14 08:50 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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What is the answer on the answer key?

Thanks!
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#2260838 - 04/12/14 08:51 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Hi KeyString, can you try one more time for the link above?

Or, here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxdJp3V5iKZqRlZKbGgtbkhCQzA/edit?usp=sharing
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#2260839 - 04/12/14 08:59 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: AZNpiano]
TimR Offline
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When I looked at it I said passing tone.

When I played it and listened I thought suspension.

But it doesn't really resolve, does it?
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#2260855 - 04/12/14 10:06 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Morodiene Online   content
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It's a 2-1 suspension, but it doesn't sound like it with the B-flat minor chord it's resolving to, so it's almost like a deceptive cadence. Of course, this is kicking around a lot of cobwebs, so I could just be spouting nonsense. smile
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#2260885 - 04/13/14 12:17 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
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It's not a suspension. There would need to be a tie from the previous chord, or at least the same note from the previous chord being replayed on the current chord, followed by a stepwise descent.
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#2260887 - 04/13/14 12:24 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
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As far I can tell it's an "accented passing note", not "just a passing note". It's on a strong beat and perhaps this is why "passing note" was crossed out as wrong.

It's the kind of thing we see in a lot of Bach Chorals, btw...
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#2260909 - 04/13/14 03:31 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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The classical textbook meaning of suspension I know wants to have the tie, but there is a suspended kind of feel to it. What I'm hearing is an Fm in beat 1, and when we get to that Eb, it sounds like the Eb of Fm7 coming so late, that the Fm isn't there anymore. And of course Fm7 moves to Bbm, which we have next. If that Eb had come a tad earlier, we would actually have a suspension that we could tie over; even the stepwise descent would be there (Eb to Db). There is also an appoggiatura feel to it - this heavy lean into the Eb which then resolves to the Db which is part of the Bbm chord.

I would love to know what this is from, and where it's located in the music, because it feels like it's in the middle of something. It sounds quite lovely.

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#2260912 - 04/13/14 03:41 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
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I don't think it's necessary to have a tie, if the pitch is there in the previous chord (and is part of the chord, otherwise we're entering Wagnerian realms, which gets tricky)...

It IS an appoggiatura (which as far as I know is the correct answer to this test), but it's a wrong "correct answer", exactly because it's acting as a passing tone (because of the D and B before and afterwards). But on a strong beat (thus my reply of an "accented passing note" which is not part of the curriculum of CM!
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#2260916 - 04/13/14 03:52 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I don't think it's necessary to have a tie, if the pitch is there in the previous chord (and is part of the chord, otherwise we're entering Wagnerian realms, which gets tricky)...

In formal theory the way it is taught, I believe the tie-rule is in there. Music does more than what formal theory teaches. In fact, one of the books I studied has a caveat in the beginning, warning that what's in there reflects only a certain type of music in a limited period. (Which was interesting to see written out like that).
Quote:

It IS an appoggiatura (which as far as I know is the correct answer to this test), but it's a wrong "correct answer", exactly because it's acting as a passing tone (because of the D and B before and afterwards). But on a strong beat (thus my reply of an "accented passing note" which is not part of the curriculum of CM!

EZ's student had written "passing tone", and that was marked wrong. "Accented passing tone" is probably right, but it also makes us think of Fm7 which moves to the Bbm, and then our accented passing tone also acts as an appoggiatura. smile

Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way? laugh

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#2260917 - 04/13/14 03:53 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: AZNpiano]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I am thinking passing tone too, but my student's theory test was marked wrong with "passing tone" as answer.

Maybe is something else that I am not enlighten of?

Your student is correct. The answer key contains a different answer.


I am curious, you seen the answer key, what is the answer key to this question?
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#2260918 - 04/13/14 03:55 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
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Originally Posted By: KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way? laugh


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.
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#2260919 - 04/13/14 03:58 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
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Below is the whole piece.

It is in measure 6, the top E-Flat at beat 3.

Whole Piece


Edited by ezpiano.org (04/13/14 03:59 AM)
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#2260923 - 04/13/14 04:26 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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Here is your piece, once on piano

once (different key) as an orchestra arrangement

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#2260924 - 04/13/14 04:27 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Originally Posted By: KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way?


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.

Ah, but I am asking you guys here as musicians and teachers. smile What are your own thoughts?

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#2261234 - 04/13/14 08:45 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: AZNpiano]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
It's not a suspension. There would need to be a tie from the previous chord, or at least the same note from the previous chord being replayed on the current chord, followed by a stepwise descent.

Doesn't the fact that there are half notes underneath that are held while the suspension resolves itself count?
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#2261237 - 04/13/14 08:47 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Originally Posted By: KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way?


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.

Ah, but I am asking you guys here as musicians and teachers. smile What are your own thoughts?


I like the way WMTA handles their theory tests. They do their best to put things in there with obvious answers, or rather, obvious examples of the thing they are testing. It's not trying to be obscure or tricky. It sounds like we are in a bit of a disagreement as to what it is, so I'm curious what the answer key says it is, and why they felt this was a good example of one.
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#2261311 - 04/13/14 11:44 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Polyphonist Offline
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If the answer key says anything other than accented passing tone, the answer key is wrong.
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#2261321 - 04/14/14 12:22 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Just hear back from CM chair, she said the answer key is appoggiatura.
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#2261342 - 04/14/14 01:31 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Just hear back from CM chair, she said the answer key is appoggiatura.

Do I get a prize? laugh
Originally Posted By: keystring
]here is also an appoggiatura feel to it - this heavy lean into the Eb which then resolves to the Db which is part of the Bbm chord....

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#2261355 - 04/14/14 02:06 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
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Hahaha....
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#2261358 - 04/14/14 02:41 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Just hear back from CM chair, she said the answer key is appoggiatura.
Well.. CM is wrong. Tell them to call me if you want! grin
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#2261404 - 04/14/14 05:05 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
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I can see why they would say it's an appoggiatura - an unprepared dissonance which resolves by step. But they should also have accepted accented passing-note as, if you like, a more specific kind of appoggiatura. It certainly is not a suspension where the dissonant note is held over from the previous chord, in which it is a harmony-note, and then resolved by step.


John
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#2261441 - 04/14/14 07:50 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
Charles Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Originally Posted By: KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way?


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.

Ah, but I am asking you guys here as musicians and teachers. smile What are your own thoughts?


Since you asked:

. . . "Theory" is the grammar of music.

In the same way that you can speak, without "knowing" grammar, you can write (and play) music without "knowing" theory.

But when you _do_ know it, it puts what you're doing into a useful structure. It can stop you from making bad choices, and help you make good ones.

And sometimes, you break the rules, because you _really_ like the sound.

. Charles

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#2261442 - 04/14/14 07:56 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: drumour]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: drumour
I can see why they would say it's an appoggiatura - an unprepared dissonance which resolves by step. But they should also have accepted accented passing-note as, if you like, a more specific kind of appoggiatura. It certainly is not a suspension where the dissonant note is held over from the previous chord, in which it is a harmony-note, and then resolved by step.


John


Thanks for the explanation. smile
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#2261452 - 04/14/14 08:07 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Originally Posted By: KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way?


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.

Ah, but I am asking you guys here as musicians and teachers. smile What are your own thoughts?


I think there is more point to it when the example is less obscure.

It is an appoggiatura, but that's not exactly a mainstream usage for the music I run into or am interested in. Isn't the term and usage limited to a fairly short time period?
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#2261674 - 04/14/14 05:34 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Offline
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At the moment in question you have, for a moment, and accented, a Bbsus chord. It resolves IMMEDIATELY to a Bm chord.

So there IS a suspension feel, but as others have mentioned, a suspension in traditional analysis normally has the suspension start early and is tied over.

Appoggiatura is not the best answer because of what goes before.

I have to agree with those who said accented passing tone. Anyone who does not accept that as a superior answer has no business writing these tests. frown

And I'm assuming it is "multiple guess".
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#2261725 - 04/14/14 07:26 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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I didn't use "sus" because in those kinds of exams it's not used or recognized, and I found quite a few classically trained people don't seem to be familiar with it. But sus is exactly what it is. Thank you for pointing that out, Gary.

Quote:
... a suspension in traditional analysis normally has the suspension start early and is tied over.

I'm tempted to highlight the word "traditional" because that is the problem with these kinds of exercises. Btw this is not my original idea; it was pointed out to me a few years ago, and since then I see the point. In traditional music theory we are given an artificial model which is based on a simplified version of Baroque music frozen in time. (Baroque itself evolved).

When preparing for these kinds of exams (or preparing the student for this kind of exam) we have to keep in mind "what the examiner wants" and "what slot to put things into". If I were writing the exam I would write in "accented passing tone". But I would hope that my teacher would let me understand what can actually be heard in the music, which is beyond these slots. (Or if I were teaching it, to do that.) That is the reason why I asked the question that I did earlier. smile

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#2261938 - 04/15/14 04:44 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Mark Polishook Offline
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As Polyphonist has said a few times already it's an accented passing tone. That's all it is. No ambiguity. No uncertainty .. Nothing. Just accented passing tone.

What makes this stuff seem obscure - and perhaps even entirely useless - is the brevity of the reply from the so-called chair who said the answer key says 'blah-blah-blah. If all they're testing is the ability to label something in reference to an answer key THAT's the problem.

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#2261943 - 04/15/14 05:00 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
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Mark, I said that as well...

But in all honesty, if we look at the music itself, there's a bit of an ambiguity going on there... Yes, that particular note is an accented passing note, only that the previous note (the G) comes in as an 8th, and not in a "straight", diatonic line with the rest of the previous notes. In fact it is a sequence, which is not diatonic that comes into play from the previous bar.

So, while I'm the one who mentioned the accented passing note, I am questioning, in a more general sense, the use of such a question in such a difficult passage.
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#2262004 - 04/15/14 08:12 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Sorry Nicholas!

What I should have said is -

"As Nicholas and Polyphonist have said several times in this thread it's an accented passing tone."

I agree with you on the larger context. For me anytime the reply comes back in the form of " that's the answer on the sheet," well that's a problem. So the use of the question as you point out should be questioned (is questionable).

But, anyway, you did say pretty much all of this earlier in the discussion!


Edited by Mark Polishook (04/15/14 08:13 AM)

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#2262012 - 04/15/14 08:29 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
So, while I'm the one who mentioned the accented passing note, I am questioning, in a more general sense, the use of such a question in such a difficult passage.


Any test question that can generate this much discussion (and at least mild disagreement) from experienced teachers and interested amateurs would seem to be a bad question to ask a young student.
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#2262051 - 04/15/14 09:46 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Mark Polishook]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Sorry Nicholas!

What I should have said is -

"As Nicholas and Polyphonist have said several times in this thread it's an accented passing tone."

I agree with you on the larger context. For me anytime the reply comes back in the form of " that's the answer on the sheet," well that's a problem. So the use of the question as you point out should be questioned (is questionable).

But, anyway, you did say pretty much all of this earlier in the discussion!

Not to mention that "accented passing tone" is not what they wanted according to their answer key - it was appoggiatura. frown

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#2262055 - 04/15/14 09:52 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
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You know...

Now there's a different issue at hand:

a. How to persuade CM to take on someone else to write the tests?
b. If the above doesn't happen (cause I've been hearing stories about CM for quite some time now), how to persuade the parents to NOT ask for CM testing... hmmm...
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#2262174 - 04/15/14 02:26 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
You know...

Now there's a different issue at hand:

a. How to persuade CM to take on someone else to write the tests?
b. If the above doesn't happen (cause I've been hearing stories about CM for quite some time now), how to persuade the parents to NOT ask for CM testing... hmmm...


If there's one esoteric question on the test, it might be no big deal. Everybody will miss it except by luck.

If there are many that would be a problem.

Long ago in grad school I had a course in test design, and I vaguely remember we had to do statistical tests on each question and evaluate the test itself.
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#2262239 - 04/15/14 04:31 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Mark Polishook]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Sorry Nicholas!

What I should have said is -

"As Nicholas and Polyphonist have said several times in this thread it's an accented passing tone."

Originally Posted By: Gary


Appoggiatura is not the best answer because of what goes before.

I have to agree with those who said accented passing tone.

Ignored again. smile
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#2262245 - 04/15/14 04:45 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
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I wish people wouldn't take ONE test question to represent the entire testing system. It's one bad question. That happens.

The last time I checked, MTAC is hiring test writers for CM. If you want your work to be analyzed, dissected, and scrutinized to death, please apply.
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#2262261 - 04/15/14 05:05 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Mark, I said that as well...

But in all honesty, if we look at the music itself, there's a bit of an ambiguity going on there...

I said that too.
Quote:

Yes, that particular note is an accented passing note, only that the previous note (the G) comes in as an 8th, and not in a "straight", diatonic line with the rest of the previous notes.

What G?

The core of what is happening from M5 through M6 is basically Gb (maj7) to Fm to Bb. I see no G natural anywhere.

Because the last two notes of Measure 5 are Eb and Db, and they are the same length, if we were to replace the Eb quarter with a "tiny note" and follow it with the Db as a half note, suggesting divide the "big note" in half in value, it would work pretty much like the same idea in Mozart. It's by no means not impossible to see this as an appoggiatura.

To me a fully intelligent answer would pick BOTH possibilities.
Quote:

So, while I'm the one who mentioned the accented passing note, I am questioning, in a more general sense, the use of such a question in such a difficult passage.

I said the same thing. I still say it.

The problem is a simplistic test. I believe you are saying the same thing. smile
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#2262410 - 04/15/14 11:34 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
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Yeah G flat and Eb, etc... I didn't use any accidentals in any of my posts, plus I did not notice the clef change (in my first post, but not the subsequence ones)...

And, you did say the same thing... Sorry... :-/


Edited by Nikolas (04/15/14 11:35 PM)
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#2265326 - 04/22/14 02:42 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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What should I do next?

My student's score is 99.99333%. He missed only this question, out of 150 total points.

For me, to argue and win is not the point, it doesn't effect my student's score or whatsoever.

For me, I want to know the truth. If the truth is having multiple answers, I like to know that they are willing to accept a slightly different answer that is different than the answer key as long as it make sense.

I am totally agree with TimR that a "grey question" like this should no appear on the test for merely CM10 student (not even college level eh?).

I am also totally agree with Mark Polishook that the problem that I have now is that the reply I got from the authorities is....that is the answer on the answer sheet...that is it...period...no more discussion....(this is not the exact word, but this is how I read it.)

What should I do next?
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#2265330 - 04/22/14 02:50 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
My student's score is 99.99333%. He missed only this question, out of 150 total points.

That certainly wouldn't give him a score of 99.99.
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#2265332 - 04/22/14 02:52 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Polyphonist]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Hihi...I am bad at math...that is 99.33%
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#2265684 - 04/23/14 03:09 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
What should I do next?

Do nothing.

It's just one question.

Life goes on.
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#2265751 - 04/23/14 08:54 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
What should I do next?


Your math isn't bad, that answer was at least half right.

That's a pretty dedicated student to get 149/150, and I'm guessing is a bit of a perfectionist.

You might want to explain to him/her that the question was gray and that their answer had some merit. It showed some understanding and some thought.

And then........if there is ever going to be a need for this student to understand when to use an appogiatura and when to use a passing tone, in the type of music they'll be playing, you might want to go just a bit deeper and be sure they know it, intellectually and in practice.

Is it trivia memorized for the test, never to be encountered again? or something more fundamental to their future development? that makes a difference.

A student somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum can have a very hard time letting go of a grade like this, and may obsess over it for weeks.
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#2265799 - 04/23/14 11:29 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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It was the mom that is not letting go...
I sent out email to explain the "grey question" like this sometimes occurs in the test. I explained that the teacher who corrected it has to follow the answer sheet. I explain that sometimes there are more than one answer to the questions, but only one would be accepted by the evaluator. Student said thanks (to my impression, he is totally okay with it, he is a smart teenager), but mom continuously to ask if I hear anything back from the chair about this case.
The chair just told me the answer is appoggiatura without further explanation or whatsoever.
I personally think that if the authorities can recognize and agree that it is a grey question, then it is an organization that always think there is still space for improvements. People are not perfect, organization are not perfect either. We all do mistakes we all do have space for improvements.


Edited by ezpiano.org (04/23/14 11:39 AM)
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#2265863 - 04/23/14 02:03 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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That example in no way sounds or functions like an appoggiatura!!! Composition comes before theory: in this case we have a technical loop-hole with the theoretical definition. Issues like this occur when theorists [over]think, instead of listen. Someone was trying to be clever; instead they demonstrated that they don't now how to listen to music. Which begs the question: what's the point?!?

That was an accented non-chord tone (aka accented passing tone).


Edited by A443 (04/23/14 02:15 PM)

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#2265928 - 04/23/14 04:35 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: A443
That example in no way sounds or functions like an appoggiatura!!!


It does sound like an appogiatura to my ears; perhaps I misunderstand the function.

What, pray tell, IS the function of an appogiatura?

(not even wanting to get into the function of the acciacatura so often mistakenly confused with it)
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#2265943 - 04/23/14 05:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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@TimR, did you listen to the YouTube example that was given?

Based on that recording, are you really saying that the example sounds like an appogiatura? Or did you simply play/read the isolated notes in question out of context?

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#2265947 - 04/23/14 05:28 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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The way these things are probably set up, is that you start with a list of things that are to be taught at a given grade level. I went along the RCM, but this is probably similar. Once the terms are taught, they also have to be examined since there are exams and grades. So somebody is tasked with finding an example of an appoggiatura or whatever, to stick into the exam, and it starts with the definition.

All of these things can be taught without ever referring to sound; like a combination of algebra and geometry. One can fill out work books, memorize things, without ever getting at sound. The exam itself will not involve sound. How many students are able to audiate?

I just looked for an "official" definition of appoggiatura and found this:
http://www.theflipsideforum.com/index.php?topic=4355.10;wap2

Where we find:
Originally Posted By: above source
Accented Passing Notes
These are a type of appoggiatura, and are not as common as unaccented passing notes. They occur on the beat and fill in the gap between two pitches. They are usually found in descending scalic passages, but can sometimes occur ascending. In chorale harmony, one passing note may be inserted between consonant pitches a 3rd apart. Usually the note before the accented passing note will be a consonance, however it is possible to have an accented passing note after an unaccented passing note in a scalic passage.

There is a much longer section of several paragraphs specifically on appoggiaturas.

If somebody is going by this type of definition (not saying whether it's good or bad), then we can see why they decided on appoggiatura as an answer. Or - that they were seeking an appoggiatura for the exam, and came up with that music to find one.

-----
I printed out the score when the question came up, and played it. However, that was slow playing and what one might hear as an appog. type of leaning might not be there at tempo. And then there is the rhythm, and other elements that were already discussed. If they were looking for appogg. then that piece was probably a poor choice.

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#2265986 - 04/23/14 06:22 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Wait...I am learning too...
Accented Passing Tone = Appoggiatura?
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#2265991 - 04/23/14 06:39 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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We can be pretty sure that is exactly what happen: someone(s) went out in search of a clever example that would/might mess-up a student on an exam. I take issue with that kind of learning and testing, not to mention the aforementioned issue of how historically appoggiatura sound and function--it just looks like an appoggiatura under a microscope, once you pan out you realise: that is compositionally not what is going on at all.

Come on, let's please remember that appoggiaturas have historical connotations: the reason we study them is for their historical significance in breaking counterpoint rules of very early music. The MacDowell example is c.300 years afterwards!

Audiation, as keystring points out, is the entirety of the problem. When you look at a score, you need to be able to hear what you see in your head. That is what the person who chose the example failed to do: audiate.

Point that out, and get your points back!

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#2265992 - 04/23/14 06:41 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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I found this webpage interesting. A443, does this link seem accurate? Or is it still too divorced from sound and historical function?

[Severely edited my original post so as not to speak above my pay grade.]


Edited by PianoStudent88 (04/23/14 07:21 PM)
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#2266006 - 04/23/14 07:19 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: A443

Come on, let's please remember that appoggiaturas have historical connotations: the reason we study them is for their historical significance in breaking counterpoint rules of very early music. The MacDowell example is c.300 years afterwards!


When theory is taught formally, it tends to be based on a simplified and restricted model of Baroque music. It is artificial. When I studied it a few years back, I ended up with 4 books because each one had something missing. One of them had a caveat in the preface, warning teachers that it was a simplification because of the limited knowledge of music that students would have at that stage, and inviting teachers to expand per their judgment. Another book told students that the rules were for the Baroque period - that music has moved on - that rules such as prohibiting parallel fifths was also period-specific. They tried to push beyond the limitations by example by stressing the importance of the tritone, and sneaking that in as much as possible. Nonetheless the book existed to fuel study for the RCM exam. What it tried to do was too ambitious.

The most memorable thing for me was the chapter showing examples of what Bach did, and then warning students not to break the rules that Bach broke. shocked

The book trying to be progressive tried to include music, which most of the harmony theory books don't do. There are about 40 examples from music for each chapter. The problem is that some of the examples are out of context - something being pulled out of the middle of a piece where it is going through a series of modulations, showing an "example" of a rule, but within the whole it is not doing that. It was pointed out to me that this produces poor musical thinking. So in that sense:
Quote:
The MacDowell example is c.300 years afterwards!

Yes, as per the above. It is a poor choice.

But then what is the sense of learning all these terms? Are they for concepts and hearing? Yes, the appoggiatura historically is not what we have in that piece. Nonetheless, one can hear a "leaning" and release, which the appogg. does. Can student and teacher explore and discuss this, and thus develop the ear.

The same was true for the "suspension which isn't". A suspension has a note that is held over and is tied - which we don't have there. But the ear still hears a late developing, after-the-fact - suggested suspension, which is a very interesting thing to explore. And then we have "sus chords" which aren't really talked about in harmony theory, and some of that feel is there.

Anyway, early on I put out the challenge as to why these studies exist, which I hoped might engender some food for thought. If you have a reason why, it might also affect how you decide to teach, and what. Notwithstanding the social pressure by some families to have their kids get high grades in exams, just because.

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#2266009 - 04/23/14 07:28 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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@PianoStudent88, thats a good link. That link explains, from a historical context, how an appoggiatura SOUNDS. That is what is important.

The question is: can you hear it?

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#2266011 - 04/23/14 07:29 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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What keystring's story leaves me feeling is that it's useless to study music unless it's one on one with a truly exceptional teacher. Perhaps I get overly discouraged.

Over in the ABF I'm floating a thread about a significantly aurally based way into music: Music - seeking a new way in. This is an experimental idea for me.
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#2266017 - 04/23/14 07:35 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
It was the mom that is not letting go...

This actually points to an important factor in this whole story. Teaching doesn't happen in a vacuum and you are working in an environment. Lessons are taken for different reasons. Ideally, students would take lessons because they want to learn how to play music well. If exams were taken at all, it would be in order to assess how well the process is going, so that lessons can be tweaked accordingly. But that is not all that exists.

So we know that there is a population of parents who want their students to "take music" in order to have a "well rounded education", and they want to see a bunch of certificates and high grades. Whether the child enjoys music, or learns to play music well, is not that important. This parent seems to be of that group. I don't know how you would answer. Maybe diplomatically?

If your student is more reasonable and actually interested in music, maybe you could turn it into a learning experience. Let him know that music is not always that black and white. In this forum there were about 4 aspects found to this music. What is more important - earning points, or learning something interesting?

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#2266019 - 04/23/14 07:37 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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@PianoStudent88, it helps to have an exceptional teacher, but YOU simply need to be an independent thinker, and you'll master it in no time.

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#2266021 - 04/23/14 07:40 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: A443
@PianoStudent88, thats a good link. That link explains, from a historical context, how an appoggiatura SOUNDS. That is what is important.

The question is: can you hear it?

Probably not. I often don't hear dissonance well (that is, as something different from consonance), and I can't usually distinguish steps from skips, and I sometimes can't even tell if something fast is changing direction, or which direction it's going if it's tweedly deedling up and down. (Although I guess I don't think of appogiaturas as usually being fast, because I expect you'd want to lean on them a bit to bring them out.)

On the other hand, in the recitatives in the Bach St. John Passion which my chorus sang this spring, I could hear the way the tenor Evangelist ended all his lines with an added note that isn't in the score, and those sounded very distinctive to me. Not dissonant, but very much like coming to rest gently: dah daaah. I think most of those might have been accented passing tones though, not appogiaturas. I could get out my score and listen to the recording (or even better, first listen without the score) and find out if there are two sets of these which sound different: the app's vs. the apn's.

There's a Mozart very early minuet (you know, like K.2 or something that he wrote when he was three or something ridiculous) which has these in it, where I can hear the dissonance. Not sure if those are app's or apn's.
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#2266037 - 04/23/14 08:09 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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@KS

Music is not only black and white for sure this point my student and myself understand that.

As I told you before, we do not need the 0.67 points back, no, we do not need.

You do not know my student, nor his mom, I hope if you won't categorize her into anything. For sure I know she wants ALL of it that you mentioned above, which is...
1. Well-rounded education
2. Certificates with high grades
3. Student enjoy music
4. Student played well

I do not need to get those 0.67 points back, I just need the organization to realize that....
EITHER -->They can agree that music is not only black and white and hope they can accept some grey color in the test

OR --> Please include only "black and white" music in the test and leave out anything that is grey color in the future.

Again, I do not need those 0.67 points back.

Thanks,
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#2266042 - 04/23/14 08:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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BTW...

The MTAC State Board of Directors is seeking to hire individuals to write theory and ear training Certificate of Merit workbooks. Please note that THIS IS A PAID contracted position – not a volunteer position.


Own and have extensive experience with the Finale Notation Software,
Have a keen sense of clean and neat formatting,
Have a striving for excellence and perfection,
Have extensive experience as a CM Teacher,
Be well versed with the requirements in the CM Syllabus,
Be able to honor instructions and deadlines set forth in the CM Workbook Guideline
Be able to accept criticism and be willing to revise work if needed without complaints, and
Be able to communicate regularly via emails.


Here is the link
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#2266043 - 04/23/14 08:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Mark Polishook Offline
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With appogiaturas there are sort of two uses of the word. Here's a summary of one kind of use.

http://www.ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/Q93.html

The description comes from theory of counterpoint.

From a well-known theory text (Aldwell/Schacter): "Metrically strong non chord approached by leap and left by step ... The resolution is almost always down.."

From Peter Schubert's Modal Counterpoint Text (p. 125): "an unprepared accented dissonance." The example shows D leaping up to F with a D underneath the D and C underneath the F. The F then resolves down to E. So that agrees with the Aldwell/Schacter text.

From Peter Schubert's Baroque Counterpoint textbook (p. 244):"a skip into a dissonance .... on a strong beat [that] resolves by step we often call an appogiatura." The examples include a beginning note that leaps up into a dissonance on a strong beat which resolves down by step. That also agrees with Aldwell/Schacter. As does the first description above in the web link. These definitions don't seem to agree with what the test said in the McDowell example was an appogiatura.

On the other hand it's true if we surf around the web there are all kinds of definitions to be found. Some of which agree with the "leap up into a dissonance and resolve down by step" and others which don't agree with that and which make accented passing tones and appogiaturas look like the same thing. But then the question for those sites that don't agree with the history of theory is where do they get their information from?

The CM test writers can use any definition they want to. It's their test. It's their prerogative. If they want to work with answers that are contrary to historical texts, well, sure, they can do that.

But they could also include their definition of an appogiatura in the answer sheet. With a few examples. That way students and teachers could see why the answers are as they are. And teachers and students from that could make up their own minds as to whether or not the test was based on historical established answers and tradition - and informed knowledge of theory - or something else entirely. But what's the answer based on if it's not based on traditional historical theory?

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#2266050 - 04/23/14 08:27 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
@KS

Music is not only black and white for sure this point my student and myself understand that.

As I told you before, we do not need the 0.67 points back, no, we do not need.

You do not know my student, nor his mom, ....


I was taking a stab at answering your question:
Quote:
What should I do next?

by looking at what may be involved.

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#2266053 - 04/23/14 08:27 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
BTW...

The MTAC State Board of Directors is seeking to hire individuals to write theory and ear training Certificate of Merit workbooks. Please note that THIS IS A PAID contracted position – not a volunteer position.

Own and have extensive experience with the Finale Notation Software,....

What point are you making with this information? What are you trying to say?

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#2266056 - 04/23/14 08:32 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Mark Polishook]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook

The CM test writers can use any definition they want to. It's their test. It's their prerogative. If they want to work with answers that are contrary to historical texts, well, sure, they can do that.


I am not familiar with the CM. With RCM, there are recommended texts /workbooks. I purchased two for grade 1 harmony, and both presented the same material and the same information and definitions, but from different angles. One of them which I have already mentioned tried to go beyond the concepts listed by the RCM but they contained at least that information. I imagine it is not that much different from when a province creates curriculum guidelines (I'm familiar with Canada) and then textbooks are written following those guidelines.

So how is this with CM. Do they also have set definitions and recommended texts?

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#2266160 - 04/23/14 10:55 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
ezpiano.org Offline
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I am a straight forward person. I am sorry if my post offended you, I have no intention in that.


Edited by ezpiano.org (04/23/14 11:54 PM)
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#2266161 - 04/23/14 10:59 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
ezpiano.org Offline
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My student's mom is not the kind that you think she is. Yes, she wants all, she wants certificate with high score, and she wants her kids to play good piano and be excellent in piano at the same time. Her kids played in retirement homes, duet for fun, participate in festivals (even when I said he will not win anything) with positive attitude.

My student is very dedicated too. He was hoping to write in his college application essay that he got a perfect (100%) score in his CM Level 10 theory, but now he cannot do so.


Edited by ezpiano.org (04/24/14 12:00 AM)
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#2266212 - 04/24/14 01:39 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
My student is very dedicated too. He was hoping to write in his college application essay that he got a perfect (100%) score in his CM Level 10 theory, but now he cannot do so.

You can't be serious. This is getting ludicrous.

My worst Advanced student this year got a 96% without even trying. She also "missed" the appoggiatura question. I don't go crazy and bug the CM Chair for that extra point.

Your student and his mother need to seriously get over it. And you need to tell them that.
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#2266282 - 04/24/14 05:00 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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EZpiano.org, so, what are you going to do now? You've been given the ammunition to argue the point. Are you going to do so? Do you understand the issues? Is it really that important to you? And besides, isn't this one of those things that they can simply retake?

Lol...for a college application essay? Really?!? That's what matters to you/them? That is sad...


Edited by A443 (04/24/14 05:28 AM)

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#2266283 - 04/24/14 05:14 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
Nikolas Offline
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Originally Posted By: A443
Explains.org, so, what are you going to do now? You've been given the ammunition to argue the point. Are you going to do so? Do you understand the issues? Is it really that important to you? And besides, isn't this one of those things that they can simply retake?

Lol...for a college application essay? Really?!? That's what matters to you/them? That is sad...
That's not a nice post... Besides that it's up to EZPIANO (and not Explains) to do whatever she pleases. She came here for advice, not for this! frown
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#2266287 - 04/24/14 05:27 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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@nikolas, that was auto correct, my apologies...

Those were serious questions that asked.

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#2266298 - 04/24/14 06:31 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Offline
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I realize that, but your choice of phrasing wasn't exactly friendly. Anyhow. ..
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#2266318 - 04/24/14 08:03 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: A443
@TimR, did you listen to the YouTube example that was given?

Based on that recording, are you really saying that the example sounds like an appogiatura? Or did you simply play/read the isolated notes in question out of context?


I notice you have carefully avoided explaining the function of an appoggiatura. And by function I mean purpose - why do you use one at all? Up to this point all discussion has been on whether a note meets the technical criteria for one, not why it is there.

I am not sure that I know, but here is what I have understood the difference to be.

A passing tone connects to the next note or phrase. An appoggiatura by contrast adds weight and emphasis to the current note. (An acciacatura embellishes the current note)

That understanding affects how I play them. And why else would it be important to even know the term?
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#2266372 - 04/24/14 11:23 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
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TimR, "passing tone" is simply a technical term in dry theory" where you have chord 1, then chord 2. Then on the horizontal melodic side you have note 1x moving to note 2y and you want to bridge those two notes. So if note 1x is E, 2y is C, then your "bridging note" is D, giving you E,D,C. Or you often see/hear in a G7 to C; F,E,D,C. That is all that "passing tone" means. We're not into musical expression yet.

But then we get into the musical effect part. Much of the time, our passing tone (which is also a non-chord tone) happens between beats. But sometimes we get it on the beat, in which case this non-chord tone, which is also a passing tone, becomes accented. Hence the answer people gave of "accented passing tone".

Then finally we have the musical meaning (rather than textbook, period-based meaning) of appoggiatura, which is "to lean". So the thing which is a passing note, is also an accented passing note, is also an appoggiatura. In other words, it doesn't have to be either/or - it can be both.

TimR, did you play the passage on the piano.
In fact
A443, in addition to listening to the recording, did you? smile

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#2266395 - 04/24/14 12:04 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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TimR, it makes a difference if you take the time to hear what is compositionally going on. Without doing that, we don't have a common basis on which to discuss what is happening compositionally. And this, after all, is what theory is all about!

You have to understand that composers compose, and theorists come in after the fact and try to organise what has happened long ago. You seem to have this confused: you seem to be saying there are these RULES that composers throughout time should follow.

The appoggiatura is an historically significant breakthrough of a certain time period. If I were to define the term appoggiatura, for you, it must get modified through time and compositions so that you can understand the morphology of its function (i.e., the shading slightly modifies over time).

Let me give you something different to think about: what is and what is not a piano? The development of piano goes through periods: 1) developmentary early c.1700s, 2) evolutionary c.1790-1860, 3) revolutionary c.1880 and 4) modern c.1910 onwards. Technically defining what is piano is has a lot to do with the construction, but in the end, it is really the sound which is what matters and is the defining characteristic. Using this analogy, you are trying to call an early fortepiano a modern piano.

I hope that helps.


Edited by A443 (04/24/14 12:05 PM)
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#2266401 - 04/24/14 12:24 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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A443, my problem is that I played the passage through on the piano, and if you consider appoggiatura to be a "leaning", i.e. a note is stressed and releases into relaxation, that effect is definitely there.

Quote:
sing this analogy, you are trying to call an early fortepiano a modern piano.

The actual problem lies not with what TimR is trying to call it, but with the exam question itself. They create study material based on the fortepiano and then try to have it applied to an ultra modern piano. In fact, the answer of appoggiatura is not Tim's first of all - the exam answer sheet wants to see "appoggiatura" as the correct answer.

Quote:
If I were to define the term appoggiatura, for you, it must get modified through time and compositions so that you can understand the morphology of its function ..

Doesn't that make everything rather backward? If I teach this, I would want the child to begin with a GENERAL concept - the idea of leaning, or tension releasing or whatever. I would not want the child to begin with specialized usage over say a 50 year period a few years ago, then another specialized usage, and then another. To me, beginning with specialization rather than general ideas is backward. As well, it becomes overwhelming when there is no overall idea to begin with. One simply does not begin with specialized detail, unless you want to end up with memorizers who can excel at a game of musical Trivial Pursuits. (And can they still do music with that?)

I have a question which admittedly is meant to be a bit of a challenge: How would you want to see this material organized ideally? (Throwing this out to anyone).

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#2266462 - 04/24/14 02:48 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
If I were to define the term appoggiatura, for you, it must get modified through time and compositions so that you can understand the morphology of its function ..

Doesn't that make everything rather backward? If I teach this, I would want the child to begin with a GENERAL concept - the idea of leaning, or tension releasing or whatever.


Yes, exactly.

They should be able to hear the tension.

And then they should learn the reason for using the tension - and the same tension may be called appoggiatura, or passing tone, or color note, or suspension depending on the purpose for which it is used.

(If the appoggiatura is a relic of the baroque age, no longer used, then why teach the term at all?)
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#2266464 - 04/24/14 02:51 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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Appoggiare is Italian: to lean on. The origin for appoggiatura is in Latin which literally means: to support in the direction of.

At its very fundamental core, an appoggiatura doesn't purely function as a dissonant non-chord tone (i.e., tension then release)--this understanding comes more from a later musical understanding of vertical harmony. From an historical standpoint, the appoggiatura more-or-less temporarily separates itself from the rule of dissonance with an unprepared leap--it acts as part of a delayed consonant that reestablishes direction from a previous non-stepwise direction. It is like a directional arrow, unencumbered by the rules of dissonance, pointing towards the direction of consonance. Though seemingly complicated, this is fundamentally how an appoggiatura functions and sounds.

The MacDowell example is a result of a motivic rhythm/melodic pattern which happens to also seemingly create a pattern that resembles that of an appoggiatura. Because that pattern is--in fact--there, appoggiatura is not a complexity wrong answer, however it is not entirely correct either: it implies that one does not know instinctively how an appoggiatura functions within a musical context (i.e, this is the wrong identification of a similar pattern).

So what is the function then? Look at measure 2!

Is there really ANYONE that reads this that will make the argument that m.2 is also and appoggiatura?!? These measures are the same (i.e., m.6 has a reduction of notes and is in a different octave, but it has the EXACT SAME MUSICAL FUNCTION...which is not as an appoggiatura)!!!
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#2266471 - 04/24/14 03:04 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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@ezpiano.org, take what you've learn here and fight back for what you think is right. The point you have made is that they shouldn't include examples that have a grey area, since the person scoring the results are not allowed to make a judgment call. That is a valid point, and you should argue that. If you fail at that level, argue it further up the chain until the issue is resolved. Don't forget to argue that they have ALSO made a blundering error in the exam question itself! No one likes to hear that, or admit to it, but you need to argue that their answer is WRONG.
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#2266473 - 04/24/14 03:09 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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@keystring, my response to your question about generalised vs. specific learning examples is VERY LONG.

Basically, I think definitions are useless; you need experiences in order to apply learned knowledge. So, I think if you want a student to understand what an appoggiatura is, you need to give them examples of 200 different instances. It is a random number, but they need to have experiences and make their own connections first...in my opinion.


Edited by A443 (04/24/14 03:18 PM)
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#2266476 - 04/24/14 03:17 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
A443 Offline
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...the MacDowell is a great example of how "learning a definition" devoid of musical context will lead to problems.
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#2266557 - 04/24/14 06:20 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: A443
...the MacDowell is a great example of how "learning a definition" devoid of musical context will lead to problems.

But it's the American Way. The same thing happens in public schools, day after day. That's why we produce parrots who can pass tests, but they don't know anything.

Someone familiar with what an appoggiatura is will simply think of examples. The measure in question doesn't do what an appoggiatura normally does, and that's the end of it.

As for these tests, the inmates are running the asylum. I'd simply cross out the 99. something score and put 100% on it, because if my student wrote accented passing tone, on the beat, the right answer was given.

But this is why I am not a part of any organizations, never was. smile
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#2266600 - 04/24/14 07:54 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Thanks everyone!! I have a solution! If you want to see how I write my case to the organization, please PM me with your email then I will show you.

If you wanted to be quoted and support my case, please PM me with...

Your real name, position/career, why you think this is not an appoggiatura, and lastly, what you think should be the best answer.

If you PM me, I will include your testimony in my case to the organization.

Many thanks!!
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#2266603 - 04/24/14 08:00 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Polyphonist Offline
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I don't think anyone else thinks this is as big a deal as you're making it out to be.
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#2266655 - 04/24/14 10:14 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org

Your real name, position/career, why you think this is not an appoggiatura, and lastly, what you think should be the best answer.


That isn't how I would put it if arguing my case to the board.

It may be that a majority of teachers would agree that accented passing tone is more correct than appoggiatura.

But to say app is wrong is both unpalatable (to the really really smart guy who wrote the test) and not completely defendable, because technically it could meet the criteria.

What I would argue instead is that either answer should be accepted. I would also suggest that they revise the test with a an example of an appoggiatura that can't be mistaken for something else, since obviously they think it is important that the student be able to identify one. I would include a proposed example with my request for adjustment of the test score.
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#2266730 - 04/25/14 04:41 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: TimR]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: TimR

What I would argue instead is that either answer should be accepted.

That's probably not going to work, because it is (apparently) a multiple guess format, and considering two possible answers does not work well in that format.
Quote:

I would also suggest that they revise the test with a an example of an appoggiatura that can't be mistaken for something else, since obviously they think it is important that the student be able to identify one. I would include a proposed example with my request for adjustment of the test score.

That is probably a much better idea. Remove that question from the McDowell altogether.

This whole question becomes REALLY sticky if you consider notation such as Mozart's for his sonatas, where he does not even differentiate between two different realizations of the same writing. There you have a little note followed by a big note (principle note), and only knowledge will allow the performer to know when the little note is quickyl, or when it gets half the value of the note following.

I'll follow with a link that will illustrate how murky this all becomes.
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#2266732 - 04/25/14 04:45 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Offline
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http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/ab/IMSLP00212-Mozart_-_Piano_Sonata__K_281.pdf

You will have to scroll down to the Rondo, movement 3. Here you will see straight 8th notes in the first full bar.

F Eb D C. This would seem to be an example of our "accented passing tone".

But it is rewritten. In Mozarts autograph, and also in my edition, which STICKS to this, the F is written as a little note, then the following Eb is a quarter.

And in the edition I have the little note is referred to, clearly as a "long appoggiatura".

Then there is a long intro discussing how to tell which of these little notes is a "long appoggiatura" and which one is a "short appoggiatura.

I could then call this editor, Nathan Brody, an idiot or at least an ignorant man because he does not refer to the note in question as a "accented passing tone".

Do you see how anal this gets? And how the terminology completely defeats our analysis of what is actually happening, or how to play?

Simple answers for simple (stupid and ignorant) people...
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#2266772 - 04/25/14 07:56 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
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I found it interesting in your link, that the German calls it "Vorschlag", and almost humorous to state that the "Vorschlag" (pre-play) is to be played "auf dem Schlag" (on the beat). My multilingual dictionary then has these kinds of definitions for Vorschlag:
"cap" which is "frein" in French (the idea of braking a note - which is another feel for leaning). Then there is "orn. (ornament) - appoggiatura). This "ornament" sticks out.

My old theory book says

"
Originally Posted By: book

Melodic Decoration

The appogiatura is one of the ornaments (or graces) that were common in the 17th and 18th centuries. It is an accented dissonance that leans on the following chord note, thus displacing the consonant chord note."


This goes in the direction of what A443 said but perhaps in simpler word. The main point being that it is a device of the 17th and 18th century and that there is the sense of it being an ornament - a kind of grace note decorating a main chord-note that pushes the chord note off to the side, delaying its entrance. That also goes nicely with the French word "frein" - that you are putting on the brakes and then releasing, to slide into that note.

This is an exercise in the book where we were to turn the grace-note appearance into notation:


So far, so good. But then we got to short excerpts from existing music and I have a scribbled note from an observation from my teacher, "Many are not true appogiaturas". So as soon as we try to get to actual music, the neat definitions fall apart. Or - as soon as you try to move forward in history or composers who are more adventurous, it gets murky.

The other theory book which tried to follow the same RCM syllabus, but without examples from music (which is why I added the above book, for the musical examples) says this:
Originally Posted By: other book

Appogiatura
The appogiatura is a non-chord tone that occurs on the strong beat, or a stronger part of the beat than the note of resolution. Appogiaturas are approached by leap, and left by step. They resolve to the chord tone that they replace.

In the 17th and 18th centuries, the appogiatura was often written like a grace note, but unlike a grace note, the appogiatura is played on the beat. Thus it is an accented non-chord tone.

This is followed by frantic scribbles about "accented neighbour tone" which "moves step-wise from and to a chord note: appogiatura approached by leap, left by step; "echappe" = incomplete neighbour tone arrives by step, leaves by leap in opposite direction

This material is probably parallel to that of the CM in many ways. The student is left to memorize a tone of definitions, head spinning with notes that fly in from above or below, probably memorized long enough for an exam, and then?

This second book manages to use appropriate material for analysis, but then we're stuck in a narrow period of time. As a student, one might be left thinking that this is how all music works, because the theory books stay within this time frame, so they see nothing else. The other book tried to push the envelope, but then ran into other problems.

As per:

Originally Posted By: Gary
Do you see how anal this gets? And how the terminology completely defeats our analysis of what is actually happening, or how to play?

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#2266793 - 04/25/14 09:08 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A443]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: A443
@keystring, my response to your question about generalised vs. specific learning examples is VERY LONG.

Basically, I think definitions are useless; you need experiences in order to apply learned knowledge. So, I think if you want a student to understand what an appoggiatura is, you need to give them examples of 200 different instances. It is a random number, but they need to have experiences and make their own connections first...in my opinion.

The bigger problematic is the whole big picture. You have the entire world of musicianship put into the hands of a single teacher, given that next to nothing is taught in school. An experienced and dedicated teacher might have managed to organize "all that needs to be learned" for musicianship into some kind of order, assembling all the materials he needs in his own fluid package. But most people rely at least to some degree on method books, systems like the RCM, CM etc., or something. It's not a question of appogiatura - but of everything that needs to be learned.

Here we're in the context of CM. Since I'm not familiar with it I'm sticking with what I know, the RCM. The timing for this kind of exam is when the student is at some grade - maybe gr. 5, 6 or 7 for the practical portion. Why would they do it that way? Well, probably because the student will have played a lot of material by then, and so will have encountered all of these things in music first (which goes with your idea). But it doesn't happen by osmosis. If a teacher is planning for students to do the theory exams and/or wants those things to be learned, then for the 5 years that the student is working with music, he can be pointing out these things as they come up. IF getting these names seems important, which it may not be.

If the main goal is to get high grades in exams, then the number of pieces played by the student may be limited - the classical picture of few pieces drilled to perfection we hear about - then this will happen even less.

We also have the fact that this theory is rooted in the 17th and 18th century. One of my theory books actually warns about it in a small print preface "to the teacher". So the student is playing music from all periods (but maybe Baroque is more heavily done "traditionally) but learning theory geared to one period of time. There is an additional side effect -- Namely, the theory won't be seen as belonging to a restricted period of time. There will be the impression that this theory reflects music as a whole, since that is all that is learned.

But at least, when examples are given, and exams are created, if the theory is 17th & 18th century, then the music should be as well. IF one wants to go the exam route.

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#2266808 - 04/25/14 09:57 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Gary D.]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: TimR

What I would argue instead is that either answer should be accepted.

That's probably not going to work, because it is (apparently) a multiple guess format, and considering two possible answers does not work well in that format.


You would know the personality of the system better than I.

I am sometimes surprised by the unwritten structures.

I went back and got an engineering degree later in life, and some of the administrative regulations that made sense to a student were a hardship for me, working nights full time in a hospital.

So I decided to appeal one of them, and went to see the Dean. I asked for the appeal process, and the group of them looked at each other in horror, and told me "you don't want to do that." ..."We'll just make an exception for you, no problem." I got the feeling they wanted to avoid setting a precedent that might constrain them later, but were perfectly willing to accomodate a reasonable request.

Maybe they would re-score the test for one student, without admitting error or fault or changing anything.
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#2266852 - 04/25/14 11:38 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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I think appoggiatura in the context of non-harmonic-tone is not exactly the same as in the ornament context?

Are they the same or not the same?


Edited by ezpiano.org (04/25/14 12:47 PM)
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#2266950 - 04/25/14 02:08 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I think appoggiatura in the context of non-harmonic-tone is not exactly the same as in the ornament context?

Can you explain what you mean (expand on it)?

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#2266974 - 04/25/14 02:30 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
TimR Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I think appoggiatura in the context of non-harmonic-tone is not exactly the same as in the ornament context?

Can you explain what you mean (expand on it)?


My understanding is close to what ez asked, but of course I could be completely wrong.

From the wiki:
Quote:
In music, ornaments or embellishments are musical flourishes that are not necessary to carry the overall line of the melody (or harmony), but serve instead to decorate or "ornament" that line. Many ornaments are performed as "fast notes" around a central note
.

To me, an acciacatura is an example of that kind of decoration, but an appoggiatura has a definite purpose, to add emphasis to that particular note or point in the line. There could be other ways to do the same thing - a sforzando, a subito dynamic change, etc. But at any rate, the appoggiatura IS necessary to carry the line, not just an embellishment.

If I'm wrong let me know, I'll change my answer.
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#2266985 - 04/25/14 03:09 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Appoggiatura in the context of ornaments are the one that tiny little notes that has a line connect to the bigger notes. Mostly mistaken as "grace note" that has a line crossing it.

How can I insert picture correctly?
[img:left]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxdJp3V5iKZqOURxU3RVQnhnaEE/edit?usp=sharing[/img]



Appoggiatura in the context of non-harmonic tone are the one that perfectly looks normal and blend into the music itself. The circled note in MacDowell would be the example of it. This Appoggiatura are as big as other normal notes and there are no tiny lines to connect to the bigger notes.
[img:left]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxdJp3V5iKZqRGtUekNrMTVOUTg/edit?usp=sharing[/img]
This is very bad...

Let me know if this make sense.

I know they looks differently, and also played differently, am I right or wrong?






Edited by ezpiano.org (04/25/14 03:11 PM)
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#2266992 - 04/25/14 03:16 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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You can't really judge by how the notes are written, because the edition of the music you're using might write the tiny ones out as big notes.

Also my own impression is that even though they may have been written tiny originally by the composer, that the composer means them as an essential part of the musical effect of what is played.

At least this is true for the historical examples: for example, Mozart. More recent conventions about how dissonances are written may operate differently.
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#2267001 - 04/25/14 04:01 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: TimR]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4783
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: TimR

You would know the personality of the system better than I.

Probably not, because I am a rebel who has refused to join organizations. Mostly for this kind of thing I just give moral support to other people who have to face bureaucracies. smile
Quote:

So I decided to appeal one of them, and went to see the Dean. I asked for the appeal process, and the group of them looked at each other in horror, and told me "you don't want to do that." ..."We'll just make an exception for you, no problem." I got the feeling they wanted to avoid setting a precedent that might constrain them later, but were perfectly willing to accomodate a reasonable request.

Doesn't this remind you a bit of the military? "Don't make waves!"
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#2267003 - 04/25/14 04:02 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11657
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
You can't really judge by how the notes are written, because the edition of the music you're using might write the tiny ones out as big notes.

Yes, as I understand it, conventions fluctuated and the same music might be written differently in different editions at different times. The chapter I referred to began with Clementi, which they showed two different ways. My own version of the same Clementi piece has what looks like a series of eighth notes - no grade notes.

I`m inserting the exercise that I posted before. This represents two ways of writing the same thing. It is played as indicated in the second version (no red grace notes), but we still have this feeling of moving into the `main note` which is off beat.

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#2267006 - 04/25/14 04:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4783
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I think appoggiatura in the context of non-harmonic-tone is not exactly the same as in the ornament context?

Are they the same or not the same?

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usim...-autograph-.pdf

Compare this to whatever Mozart sonata edition you use. It should answer a lot of questions.

It should also make you ASK a lot of questions.

And no one has all the answers.

To this moment people still argue about how to perform this music, so when you pick edition A or B, you are buying someone's idea of what Mozart meant, or would have done himself.

The people who are wrestling with the hows and whys of the composition and performing of music are too busy listening and creating to worry about exact names that describe EVERYTHING that happens in music.

So you can spend the rest of your life trying to define exactly what an "appoggiatura" is, but you will still run into disagreements.

Which is exactly what is happening in this thread.
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#2267011 - 04/25/14 04:17 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1002
Loc: Irvine, CA
Originally Posted By: Gary
So you can spend the rest of your life trying to define exactly what an "appoggiatura" is, but you will still run into disagreements.

Which is exactly what is happening in this thread.


I agree with you Gary.

So, let's close this case and agree to disagree and practice more piano!!

Thanks!!
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Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Watch the introduction video on YouTube
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#2267043 - 04/25/14 05:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4783
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Originally Posted By: Gary
So you can spend the rest of your life trying to define exactly what an "appoggiatura" is, but you will still run into disagreements.

Which is exactly what is happening in this thread.


I agree with you Gary.

So, let's close this case and agree to disagree and practice more piano!!

Thanks!!

I'm not disagreeing with anyone! I'm simply saying that "simple problems" become more complex with more knowledge.

My objection to "tests" is that scoring well has more to do with figuring out what those who MAKE the tests are looking for than it has to do with what has been learned.
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