In what context are dim 7th chords usually played?

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Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? caters #2267820 04/27/14 03:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 9,328 New York City P Polyphonist 9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist 9000 Post Club Member P Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 9,328 New York City	Originally Posted by caters Okay so a diminished 7th interval is in a diminished 7th and what I was talking about is diminished-minor 7th. It's actually called a half-diminished chord, and it is not spelled with a sharp fourth, nor is any type of diminished chord. Regards, Polyphonist

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Polyphonist #2267824 04/27/14 03:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 262 Columbus, ohio, USA C caters Full Member
caters Full Member C Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 262 Columbus, ohio, USA	Originally Posted by Polyphonist Originally Posted by caters Okay so a diminished 7th interval is in a diminished 7th and what I was talking about is diminished-minor 7th. It's actually called a half-diminished chord, and it is not spelled with a sharp fourth, nor is any type of diminished chord. it is also occasionally called diminished minor because it has a diminished triad and a minor 7th. That minor in diminished-minor says "There is a minor 7th interval here" and the diminished says "It is based off of a diminished triad." However it is also called the half diminished because it is literally halfway between minor 7th and diminished 7th. If somebody was to study 7th chords it would be better that they were taught that a diminished triad with a minor 7th is a diminished-minor 7th with reference to the fact that it is called half diminished more often. Last edited by caters; 04/27/14 03:53 PM.

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? caters #2267874 04/27/14 05:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,031 D DanS 1000 Post Club Member
DanS 1000 Post Club Member D Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,031	Originally Posted by caters Thus Cdim7 can go to Cm, C, Gm, G, etc. If it's resolving to G, then it's not called C dim7. -First Year Music Theory- Originally Posted by caters Cdim7: C Eb F# Bb No, that's not even a diminished chord. Last edited by DanS; 04/27/14 05:48 PM.

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? caters #2267878 04/27/14 05:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,031 D DanS 1000 Post Club Member
DanS 1000 Post Club Member D Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,031	Originally Posted by caters Okay so a diminished 7th interval is in a diminished 7th and what I was talking about is diminished-minor 7th. but I was right about the diminished triad that C, Eb, F# No, a C diminished triad is NOT, i repeat NOT C, Eb and F#. That's is not spelled that way. It's C, Eb and Gb. Root, third, fifth. This is basic music theory. In fact, it's stuff you need to know to even get into a music theory class. Why are you inundating this forum with misinformation?

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? caters #2267881 04/27/14 05:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,031 D DanS 1000 Post Club Member
DanS 1000 Post Club Member D Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,031	Originally Posted by caters If somebody was to study 7th chords it would be better that they were taught that a diminished triad with a minor 7th is a diminished-minor 7th with reference to the fact that it is called half diminished more often. 1) nobody calls it that 2) why call it one thing "with reference to the fact that it is called" something else. Why not teach students that C is really B, with reference that it's usually called C. 3) you obviously do not have even a basic grasp of theory, yet you think you know a better way to teach it?!

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Visalia #2267882 04/27/14 05:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 91 Tokyo, Japan I Iori Fujita Full Member
Iori Fujita Full Member I Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 91 Tokyo, Japan

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? caters #2267985 04/27/14 09:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 5,998 Hobart, Australia A ando 5000 Post Club Member
ando 5000 Post Club Member A Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 5,998 Hobart, Australia	Originally Posted by caters Originally Posted by Polyphonist Originally Posted by caters Cdim7: C Eb F# Bb That is not, has never been, and will never be a diminished seventh. You are wrong polyphonist. A diminished 7th has a minor 7th interval and a diminished triad and you should know that. Thus C Eb F#, Bb is in fact Cdim7 What you are talking about is 7-5 which is a completely different chord and has just a diminished 5th and no minor third. Just look up diminished 7th and it will tell you that it has a diminished triad as the first 3 notes with a minor 7th and that is the correct definition of a diminished 7th just like augmented 7th is augmented triad with major 7th and major 7th is major triad with major 7th and minor 7th is minor triad with minor 7th. Caters, it's great that you have such enthusiasm for music theory, but you've been cautioned several times about acting as a teacher on the subject. You sound very sure of yourself, but most of what you say is not correct, and most of it is not even comprehensible. When the poster above said that a dim7 was only one note (by semitone) different to a dom7, you rushed in to correct that poster. You assumed it had to be based on a root note of C for both chords. You were so confident you were right - to the point of sounding arrogant about it. Only problem was the two chords have a different root note! If you had more knowledge in theory you could have spared us that distraction. (and the distraction of using a half diminished chord in your own example) To make it clear: Cdom7: C, E, G, Bb C#dim7: C#, E, G, Bb Hence, drop the root note by one semitone and a dim7 becomes a Dom7. Can you please do us a favour and stop acting like the professor of theory on PW? By all means join in the discussion and ask questions - I don't want to discourage a young and curious mind. But don't present yourself as a teacher and telling people they are wrong. You need to learn a lot more before you can consider doing that.

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? ando #2267997 04/27/14 10:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 9,328 New York City P Polyphonist 9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist 9000 Post Club Member P Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 9,328 New York City	Originally Posted by ando Originally Posted by caters Originally Posted by Polyphonist Originally Posted by caters Cdim7: C Eb F# Bb That is not, has never been, and will never be a diminished seventh. You are wrong polyphonist. A diminished 7th has a minor 7th interval and a diminished triad and you should know that. Thus C Eb F#, Bb is in fact Cdim7 What you are talking about is 7-5 which is a completely different chord and has just a diminished 5th and no minor third. Just look up diminished 7th and it will tell you that it has a diminished triad as the first 3 notes with a minor 7th and that is the correct definition of a diminished 7th just like augmented 7th is augmented triad with major 7th and major 7th is major triad with major 7th and minor 7th is minor triad with minor 7th. Caters, it's great that you have such enthusiasm for music theory, but you've been cautioned several times about acting as a teacher on the subject. You sound very sure of yourself, but most of what you say is not correct, and most of it is not even comprehensible. When the poster above said that a dim7 was only one note (by semitone) different to a dom7, you rushed in to correct that poster. You assumed it had to be based on a root note of C for both chords. You were so confident you were right - to the point of sounding arrogant about it. Only problem was the two chords have a different root note! If you had more knowledge in theory you could have spared us that distraction. (and the distraction of using a half diminished chord in your own example) To make it clear: Cdom7: C, E, G, Bb C#dim7: C#, E, G, Bb Hence, drop the root note by one semitone and a dim7 becomes a Dom7. Can you please do us a favour and stop acting like the professor of theory on PW? By all means join in the discussion and ask questions - I don't want to discourage a young and curious mind. But don't present yourself as a teacher and telling people they are wrong. You need to learn a lot more before you can consider doing that. Good call, ando. I've heard it said that "you can be ignorant or arrogant - but not both." Regards, Polyphonist

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Visalia #2268037 04/28/14 01:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 91 Tokyo, Japan I Iori Fujita Full Member
Iori Fujita Full Member I Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 91 Tokyo, Japan	C Eb F#, Bb is in fact Cdim7? C Eb F#, Bbb is in fact Cdim7!! Bbb is A!!! In german way of naming H is B and for example "H-moll" is "B-minor". But, in USA B=Cb, Bb=a#. So C Eb F#, Bbb, or C Eb F#, A is in fact Cdim7!! Iori Fujita

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Iori Fujita #2268038 04/28/14 01:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 205 New York City P Piano Doug Full Member
Piano Doug Full Member P Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 205 New York City	Originally Posted by Iori Fujita I'm not sure the point you are making with these pictures, other than that they highlight the notes (in color) of the three diminished seventh chords. However, the pictures list only one spelling of the 12 chromatic pitches, in this case using sharps only. For instance, d-sharp is also e-flat, g-sharp is also a-flat, etc. C is also b-sharp, and b is also c-flat, etc. In actual usage, diminished seventh chords are spelled according to the harmonic context. For example, in c major, the diminished seventh chord b-d-f-a-flat resolving to a c major triad would considered by most theorists to be an incomplete dominant ninth resolving to the tonic, and would be correctly spelled with an a-flat, not with a g-sharp.

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Iori Fujita #2268040 04/28/14 01:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 205 New York City P Piano Doug Full Member
Piano Doug Full Member P Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 205 New York City	Originally Posted by Iori Fujita C Eb F#, Bb is in fact Cdim7? C Eb F#, Bbb is in fact Cdim7!! Bbb is A!!! In german way of naming H is B and for example "H-moll" is "B-minor". But, in USA B=Cb, Bb=a#. So C Eb F#, Bbb, or C Eb F#, A is in fact Cdim7!! Iori Fujita What about C E-flat, G-flat, B-double-flat?

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Visalia #2268042 04/28/14 01:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 91 Tokyo, Japan I Iori Fujita Full Member
Iori Fujita Full Member I Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 91 Tokyo, Japan	As you said, "this type of chord is a stack of three minor thirds or (Re mi Fa)s : 1st, min 3rd, flat 5th, double flat 7th." For the diagram I used # only. Of course d-sharp is also e-flat.

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Iori Fujita #2268043 04/28/14 01:22 AM
Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 205 New York City P Piano Doug Full Member
Piano Doug Full Member P Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 205 New York City	Originally Posted by Iori Fujita As you said, "this type of chord is a stack of three minor thirds or (Re mi Fa)s : 1st, min 3rd, flat 5th, double flat 7th." For the diagram I used # only. Of course d-sharp is also e-flat. Yes. Thank you for the clarification.

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? ando #2268049 04/28/14 01:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 205 New York City P Piano Doug Full Member
Piano Doug Full Member P Joined: Mar 2013 Posts: 205 New York City	Originally Posted by ando Originally Posted by caters Originally Posted by Polyphonist Originally Posted by caters Cdim7: C Eb F# Bb That is not, has never been, and will never be a diminished seventh. You are wrong polyphonist. A diminished 7th has a minor 7th interval and a diminished triad and you should know that. Thus C Eb F#, Bb is in fact Cdim7 What you are talking about is 7-5 which is a completely different chord and has just a diminished 5th and no minor third. Just look up diminished 7th and it will tell you that it has a diminished triad as the first 3 notes with a minor 7th and that is the correct definition of a diminished 7th just like augmented 7th is augmented triad with major 7th and major 7th is major triad with major 7th and minor 7th is minor triad with minor 7th. Caters, it's great that you have such enthusiasm for music theory, but you've been cautioned several times about acting as a teacher on the subject. You sound very sure of yourself, but most of what you say is not correct, and most of it is not even comprehensible. When the poster above said that a dim7 was only one note (by semitone) different to a dom7, you rushed in to correct that poster. You assumed it had to be based on a root note of C for both chords. You were so confident you were right - to the point of sounding arrogant about it. Only problem was the two chords have a different root note! If you had more knowledge in theory you could have spared us that distraction. (and the distraction of using a half diminished chord in your own example) To make it clear: Cdom7: C, E, G, Bb C#dim7: C#, E, G, Bb Hence, drop the root note by one semitone and a dim7 becomes a Dom7. Can you please do us a favour and stop acting like the professor of theory on PW? By all means join in the discussion and ask questions - I don't want to discourage a young and curious mind. But don't present yourself as a teacher and telling people they are wrong. You need to learn a lot more before you can consider doing that. Caters, please read Ando's response again. And then read it an additional time. Members of the PianoWorld community generally recognize music theory as a highly rigorous discipline rooted in the physics of sound and deep historic traditions dating to Ancient Greece and including the last several hundred years of practice by the most brilliant, creative, talented, and accomplished musicians the world has produced. Music theory is not something that we make up on the spot! We do not each have our own taxonomies and hierarchies of theory based on curious but largely uninformed desires to make sense of it all. You have demonstrated several times a leaping to invalid conclusions about theory based on extrapolation off of a very few data points. And when members much older, more highly educated, and more experienced than you (many of them professional musicians) have tried to correct your misunderstandings, you have persisted to tell them that they are wrong! As I mentioned above in this thread, posts like these diminish (not augment!) the quality of these forums.

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Visalia #2268061 04/28/14 02:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 6,272 Reseda, California J JohnSprung 6000 Post Club Member
JohnSprung 6000 Post Club Member J Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 6,272 Reseda, California	OK, try a little experiment: Play a diminished seventh chord, any diminished seventh chord. Then take away the lowest note and replace it with the same letter name note an octave higher. Remember what you get. (It's called an inversion....) Go back to the chord you started with, and walk it up the chromatic scale. Raise each note a half step, and play this new chord, which should again be a diminished seventh. Take it up a second half step, and then a third half step. After the third half step, you should land in the same place as the inversion. If you don't, then what you have isn't a diminished seventh. I've heard that diminished sevenths were quite widely used in the scary parts of silent movies -- a live pianist would improvise for them on the fly. What you played in the experiment should sound like it would work in that context. -- J.S. Knabe Grand # 10927 Yamaha CP33 Kawai FS690

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Visalia #2268079 04/28/14 04:09 AM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 91 Tokyo, Japan I Iori Fujita Full Member
Iori Fujita Full Member I Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 91 Tokyo, Japan	There are only three patterns of diminished seventh. any note of the four notes which consist diminished seventh can be root. In the first prelude of the Well Tempered Clavier Book 1, there are all three patterns of diminished seventh which sound very natural in the stream of notes.

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Iori Fujita #2268131 04/28/14 08:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,031 D DanS 1000 Post Club Member
DanS 1000 Post Club Member D Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,031	Originally Posted by Iori Fujita C Eb F#, Bb is in fact Cdim7? C Eb F#, Bbb is in fact Cdim7!! Bbb is A!!! In german way of naming H is B and for example "H-moll" is "B-minor". But, in USA B=Cb, Bb=a#. So C Eb F#, Bbb, or C Eb F#, A is in fact Cdim7!! Iori Fujita Diminished 7 chords need to have a root 3rd 5th & 7th. You're close to being correct, HOWEVER you are in fact wrong. C, Eb F# A is NOT in fact Cdim7, it's F# dim7. Why? It's a matter of function...You must spell your chords correctly. Is Cmin spelled C D# and G? If you think this is ok, then you probably think that it's ok to spell a Cdim7 C Eb F# and A. It's a shame that people who don't really understand the material try to act like masters.

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Piano Doug #2268134 04/28/14 08:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,031 D DanS 1000 Post Club Member
DanS 1000 Post Club Member D Joined: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,031	Originally Posted by Piano Doug What about C E-flat, G-flat, B-double-flat? That is the correct spelling of Cdim7. Root 3rd 5th and 7th Last edited by DanS; 04/28/14 08:51 AM.

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? DanS #2268187 04/28/14 11:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,604 uk south B beeboss 1000 Post Club Member
beeboss 1000 Post Club Member B Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,604 uk south	Originally Posted by DanS Diminished 7 chords need to have a root 3rd 5th & 7th. You're close to being correct, HOWEVER you are in fact wrong. C, Eb F# A is NOT in fact Cdim7, it's F# dim7. Why? It's a matter of function...You must spell your chords correctly. Surely how you spell the chord depends on what key you are in. Bbb may be right if we are in Db major but what if we are in G major? What if we are in the key of E major? If the diminished 7th chord is acting as a rootless dominant minor 9th chord then there are 4 ways of spelling each diminished 7th chord depending which tone is the leading note I think. http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

Re: In what context are dim 7th chords usually played? Visalia #2268197 04/28/14 12:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 262 Columbus, ohio, USA C caters Full Member
caters Full Member C Joined: Feb 2014 Posts: 262 Columbus, ohio, USA	F# is enharmonic to Gb Augmented fourth is enharmonic to diminished 5th Eb and D# are enharmonic and in fact all black keys are In fact you could say all white keys are to. C = B# = Dbb D = C## = B### E = Fb = D## etc. So C minor if you have just this can be spelt C Eb G or C D# G. What if you have a C minor part of an E major piece but don't necessarily want to change the key signature? More convenient to have the spelling with the D# In fact this is the case for all sharp keys above E also. On the other hand what if you are doing flats? Much more convenient to use the spelling with Eb.

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