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#2262134 - 04/15/14 01:14 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 851
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Vid
In particular for performing these chorales you simply cannot reach some of the intervals as block chords so its unavoidable to roll.

Actually, in these particular chorales, everything can be reached.


Then how dare you roll those chords! grin
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Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2262135 - 04/15/14 01:14 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Vid]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Vid
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Vid
In particular for performing these chorales you simply cannot reach some of the intervals as block chords so its unavoidable to roll.

Actually, in these particular chorales, everything can be reached.


Then how dare you roll those chords! grin

grin
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Polyphonist

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#2262141 - 04/15/14 01:27 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: JoelW]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I honestly think the Members Recordings sub-forum should be trashed and people should just post their recordings in the Pianists Corner forum. It gets more view traffic, and a sub-forum for member recordings is really quite unnecessary in my opinion.


There used to be just a single 'members recording' area that hardly got any attention at all. (it's still there) In order to get more attention, people would put their recordings in the other forums which would irritate a large percentage of members. These sub-forums were created to alleviate some of the injustice of not being heard while respecting the status quo. If you're recording isn't getting the number of comments you want, that might be a good thing!

But my argument is that all member recordings should just be posted in the regular Pianist Corner, like anything else. If you were at a party full of pianists, wouldn't you rather perform in the main room where everyone's hanging out, rather than some secluded bedroom?

I see it more as an adjoining family room, clearly visible when you enter the living room (i.e., first link see at top of Pianist Corner page). This makes it easier For me to access and follow the postings and discussions. Guess we're all different !!
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YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2262143 - 04/15/14 01:29 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Beautifully played, Polyphonist. These are indeed little gems, and I'd like to hear more. But c'mon, couldn't you give us a little more than a minute of music? smile

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: pv88
1) Do you ever give reviews or comments on other members recordings?

I used to, but I have mainly ceased to do so.

pv88, Polyphonist used to give reviews regularly. In general, I thought they were detailed, thoughtful, direct, and to the point. But because he didn't preface each statement with "May I humbly suggest", his reviews were deemed by several members as being rude, condescending, inconsiderate, and downright offensive. So once you've had your head handed to you a few times, I guess you begin to develop a sore neck.

The problem is that posters are not always clear about what they expect from potential listeners. Some are simply presenting, and don't ask for anything. Others will say "comments welcome", or "looking for constructive criticism" (usually a euphemism for "no criticism".) So being a "reviewer" can often be as risky as being the "reviewee". grin

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#2262167 - 04/15/14 02:00 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
The original Lutheran chorale tunes were intended for congregational singing. As a former choral conducting major I can't help but keep this in mind when I play the Bach chorale arrangements. Poly's interpretations are quite lovely and personal. His pacing of Nunn Komm der Heiden Heiland would be suited for congregational singing (led by an organ). The ebb and flow of his reading of Fruet euch, irh Christen seems more suited for performance by a choir closely following their director. grin
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#2262183 - 04/15/14 02:50 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4831
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
What annoys me more than that is the Composers forum, which also gets almost no traffic.

+ 1

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#2262188 - 04/15/14 02:56 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Vid
In particular for performing these chorales you simply cannot reach some of the intervals as block chords so its unavoidable to roll.

Actually, in these particular chorales, everything can be reached.


You must have huge hands to reach the 12th in measure 13 of #8.

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#2262189 - 04/15/14 02:57 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
11th.
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Polyphonist

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#2262194 - 04/15/14 03:04 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
11th.

In my edition of the 371 chorales the bass note is F2 and the tenor note is C4. Have I be labouring under a lifelong delusion that those two notes make an 11th? My world is shattered!

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#2262198 - 04/15/14 03:09 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
The shorter interval is to take the top three voices with the RH.
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#2262200 - 04/15/14 03:10 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: carey]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: carey
The original Lutheran chorale tunes were intended for congregational singing. As a former choral conducting major I can't help but keep this in mind when I play the Bach chorale arrangements. Poly's interpretations are quite lovely and personal. His pacing of Nunn Komm der Heiden Heiland would be suited for congregational singing (led by an organ). The ebb and flow of his reading of Fruet euch, irh Christen seems more suited for performance by a choir closely following their director. grin

One should keep in mind that many of these chorales predate Lutheranism and are, in fact, modal and also do not necessarily maintain the same key from beginning to end - #56 for example. Bach starts it in E minor and ends in F# Major.

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#2262201 - 04/15/14 03:11 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
The shorter interval is to take the top three voices with the RH.

I tried that, but can't stretch it either. I like the way you did it.

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#2262237 - 04/15/14 04:21 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: prout]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: prout
Originally Posted By: carey
The original Lutheran chorale tunes were intended for congregational singing. As a former choral conducting major I can't help but keep this in mind when I play the Bach chorale arrangements. Poly's interpretations are quite lovely and personal. His pacing of Nunn Komm der Heiden Heiland would be suited for congregational singing (led by an organ). The ebb and flow of his reading of Fruet euch, irh Christen seems more suited for performance by a choir closely following their director. grin

One should keep in mind that many of these chorales predate Lutheranism and are, in fact, modal and also do not necessarily maintain the same key from beginning to end - #56 for example. Bach starts it in E minor and ends in F# Major.

Good observation !! As for "pre-dating Lutheranism, the Nun Komm der Heiden Heiland tune is based on the melody of the Latin hymn Veni redemptor gentium. Luther often set different German texts to the same melody. Of course, Bach would vary his settings of those repeated chorale tunes so each was unique.
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#2262312 - 04/15/14 06:50 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: JoelW]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5946
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
What annoys me more than that is the Composers forum, which also gets almost no traffic.
+ 1

The Composers' Forum doesn't have the traffic of the Pianists' Corner for sure, but over the (7) years I've been here it's had some very productive discussions and some stunning music. If it's not always a hive of stimulating discussion and interesting music, I like to think it's because we're all spending our time composing instead of hanging around an internet forum.
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Du holde Kunst...

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#2262378 - 04/15/14 09:39 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
doctor S Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/12
Posts: 137
Loc: Western PA
More chorales, please!

Do you countenance any chorale arrangements by Busoni, or perhaps the Petri choral prelude BWV 668?
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#2262725 - 04/16/14 06:35 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 741
Golly gee, Dr. Mark C. (it rhymes): if my comment was no big deal, there certainly has been much said about it.

As stated in one source: "A chorale is a melody to which a hymn is sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service. The typical four-part setting of a chorale, in which the sopranos (and the congregation) sing the melody along with three lower voices, is known as a chorale harmonization."

Does this say anything about playing this music on a hammerklavier? I don't really think so.

Therefore, just like any other transcription, it is up to the performer to authenticate as much of the original essence of the composer as they can, while at the same time lending their own voice to the rendering.

As aforementioned, as far as the arpeggiation is concerned, it wasn't written for the piano, and therefore the so-called intervals are transcribed intervals. Plus, as mentioned in an earlier reply, organists and harpsichord players often spread chords while performing.

But, does the average player have knowledge of this? NO, THEY DO NOT!!!

More importantly, if any piano major got up in a Jury and did this, they would be given a grade of "C" and disqualified as a major. In that there are 644 U.S. accredited college/university music schools by the NAMS, this is the point, people!

Finally, in that this is a posted performance and Carey is an excellent Bach player (and then some), why don't we encourage him to post a performance of his own of these same two chorales. Hey, why not live dangerously and post two, one with and one without.

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#2262896 - 04/17/14 02:41 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
Tony007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 137
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Finally, in that this is a posted performance and Carey is an excellent Bach player (and then some), why don't we encourage him to post a performance of his own of these same two chorales. Hey, why not live dangerously and post two, one with and one without.


Louis Podesta is an excellent Bach talker. Why don't we encourage him to play for us as well? I'm waiting for these two chorales in a "version to end all versions" laugh

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#2262898 - 04/17/14 02:45 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
I still can't figure out whether Louis is complimenting or criticizing my performances.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2262901 - 04/17/14 02:48 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Tony007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 137
Loc: Switzerland
By the way: it's about Polyphonist and his versions of two Bach Chorales here. And he does a very good job! And my humble ears can even detect some asynchronized chords smile

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#2262902 - 04/17/14 02:50 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Tony007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 137
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I still can't figure out whether Louis is complimenting or criticizing my performances.


Never mind laugh

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#2262907 - 04/17/14 03:08 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta

Finally, in that this is a posted performance and Carey is an excellent Bach player (and then some), why don't we encourage him to post a performance of his own of these same two chorales. Hey, why not live dangerously and post two, one with and one without.

Louis - I appreciate the compliment, but I don't want to turn this into a "dueling chorales" thread !! Plus I promised my wife that I'd keep the recording equipment out of the living room for a few months.

Poly - Regarding those 11ths in measure 13: YOU must have very large hands compared to the average pianist if you can play these without rolling them.
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YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2263155 - 04/17/14 04:56 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I still can't figure out whether Louis is complimenting or criticizing my performances.

I think it's a compliment to you, but a backhand to the rest of us. grin


Edited by Old Man (04/17/14 05:04 PM)

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#2263160 - 04/17/14 05:09 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Tony007]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Tony007
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Finally, in that this is a posted performance and Carey is an excellent Bach player (and then some), why don't we encourage him to post a performance of his own of these same two chorales. Hey, why not live dangerously and post two, one with and one without.

Louis Podesta is an excellent Bach talker. Why don't we encourage him to play for us as well? I'm waiting for these two chorales in a "version to end all versions" laugh

thumb
Hope you didn't start holding your breath yet. Wait til we give the signal!

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#2263163 - 04/17/14 05:18 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Old Man]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I still can't figure out whether Louis is complimenting or criticizing my performances.

I think it's a compliment to you, but a backhand to the rest of us. grin

I see. whistle
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Polyphonist

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#2263185 - 04/17/14 06:24 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 741
Polyphonist:

You did/tread where other choose not to go. Therefore, you are do just praise for making the effort.

In that I always haul up some old recording to further my point, I leave you with a Bach recording made on a Welte-Mignon.

You remember those as not being able to play a block chord. Well, here you get to hear both.

And, Carey will comment on just who the first performer was.

Parenthetically, the reason my friend Ken Caswell recorded the rolls over again was that initial renderings like this did not reflect the actual performance. They sounded jilted in places like this one because the tension on the Welte device was not properly adjusted.

Please listen because this type of transcription was a very common way Bach was initially played in performance "on the piano."


http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Welt...790B41C41104B2D

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#2263214 - 04/17/14 08:08 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
And the first performer was....(from Wikipedia)

"Silvio Vittore Alberto Scionti (born 20 November 1882; d 22 May 1973) was an Italian-born American pianist and teacher. Born in Acireale, Sicily, he trained at the Royal Conservatory in Naples. He eventually settled in the United States, teaching at the American Conservatory of Music, the Chicago Musical College, and the University of North Texas College of Music from 1942 to 1953, and privately in the Dallas area. He performed as a soloist numerous times with the Chicago and Minneapolis orchestras, and frequently gave recitals. After 1935, he and his wife Isabel toured Europe, Mexico, and the United States. He also recorded a handful of piano rolls."

Scionti's students included Ivan Davis and Jack Roberts, both of whom studied with him in the late 1940s. (Louis and I studied with Roberts at UNT in the early 1970's).

Louis - It was fun to hear this !! Thanks for sharing !!




Edited by carey (04/17/14 08:10 PM)
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#2263221 - 04/17/14 08:28 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Polyphonist:

You did/tread where other choose not to go. Therefore, you are do just praise for making the effort.

What effort?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2263248 - 04/17/14 10:09 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
doctor S Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/12
Posts: 137
Loc: Western PA
Poly, unalloyed praise for the chorales. More please!

Although I would like to hear your harmonizations, do you play or comment on Busoni or Petri transcriptions/arrangements of Bach chorales, choral preludes, etc?
_________________________
"I will hear in Heaven." Beethoven

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#2263352 - 04/18/14 04:57 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
Tony007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 137
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Polyphonist:

You did/tread where other choose not to go. Therefore, you are do just praise for making the effort.

In that I always haul up some old recording to further my point, I leave you with a Bach recording made on a Welte-Mignon.

You remember those as not being able to play a block chord. Well, here you get to hear both.

And, Carey will comment on just who the first performer was.

Parenthetically, the reason my friend Ken Caswell recorded the rolls over again was that initial renderings like this did not reflect the actual performance. They sounded jilted in places like this one because the tension on the Welte device was not properly adjusted.

Please listen because this type of transcription was a very common way Bach was initially played in performance "on the piano."


http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Welt...790B41C41104B2D


Louis Podesta is still talking, talking, talking, "leaving us" with some recordings "furthering his point", dropping names of his famous friends, but never, never playing for us cry

How can we encourage this great expert to reveal his mastership to us? Old piano rolls are not a substitute for real human playing and breathing, they sound like roboters, I'm so sorry! But there is a pianist and philosopher among us who can be our role model. Why is he so shy?

By the way: I still like the recordings of Polyphonist very much, and it's not a "backhand" against anybody else, it's simply what I think when listening to his Bach Chorales!

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#2264263 - 04/19/14 07:18 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: carey]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 741
Originally Posted By: carey
And the first performer was....(from Wikipedia)

"Silvio Vittore Alberto Scionti (born 20 November 1882; d 22 May 1973) was an Italian-born American pianist and teacher. Born in Acireale, Sicily, he trained at the Royal Conservatory in Naples. He eventually settled in the United States, teaching at the American Conservatory of Music, the Chicago Musical College, and the University of North Texas College of Music from 1942 to 1953, and privately in the Dallas area. He performed as a soloist numerous times with the Chicago and Minneapolis orchestras, and frequently gave recitals. After 1935, he and his wife Isabel toured Europe, Mexico, and the United States. He also recorded a handful of piano rolls."

Scionti's students included Ivan Davis and Jack Roberts, both of whom studied with him in the late 1940s. (Louis and I studied with Roberts at UNT in the early 1970's).

Louis - It was fun to hear this !! Thanks for sharing !!



With all due respect to my dear friend Carey, Silvio Scionti was listed as a somewhat faculty member in literature associated with North Texas State University," (as it was known at that time) until the day he died (from 1953 until 1973).

They actually used to wheel him in his wheel chair through the back door of this enormous music school for a special lesson. One of those lessons was Miss America, Phyllis George, who used to list him in her bio as her major teacher.

The point, Louis?: The point is that this man was the last, in our part of the piano musical world, of those who had formally matriculated in the 19th century. Included in this were those compositional skills required of those who were expected to play their own compositions in performance.

Accordingly, he recorded the Saint-Saens Bach transcription of the Gavotte. That means: do not believe me, but do believe the un-edited (Welte made them sign a contract) recorded version of this piece the way most others played it.

Did he/they utilize (in all of their performances/recordings) the original composers style of playing, which also included asychronization, improvisation, and tempo modification?

Yes, they did!

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