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#2261319 - 04/14/14 12:18 AM Bach - Chorales 8 + 170
Polyphonist Offline
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Polyphonist

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#2261320 - 04/14/14 12:21 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Online   content
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I like these.

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#2261366 - 04/14/14 03:09 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Online   content
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Beautiful!!
Until now (and I really mean just now), I never thought of the chorales as pieces that might be performed, or, to tell the truth, even really played, or studied as pieces to be played. And I don't mean about the "playing Bach on the piano" issue; I would have thought the same thing about it on any keyboard instrument. I always thought of the chorales almost as abstractions, things that just "are."

You changed my mind. smile

Probably my view came about from my 1st year theory teacher in college, who viewed the chorales as quasi-holy; maybe even forget the quasi. He referred to them constantly. When he spoke of them as a group, it was never "the chorales," it was always "the three hundred seventy one chorales."

Do you know/play a lot of them?

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#2261369 - 04/14/14 03:15 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Mark_C]
pv88 Offline
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@Mark_C,

You haven't yet seen the composition for "10,000 pianos" in the other thread as I have posted a very important question for you, there. Looks as if there might be some delusions of grandeur floating around.

New piece for 10,000 pianos?

Do apologize for taking you away from the original post, here.

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#2261381 - 04/14/14 03:53 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
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Please stop hijacking my thread. Joel and Mark_C, thank you for your genuine comments.
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Polyphonist

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#2261382 - 04/14/14 03:53 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: pv88]
Mark_C Online   content
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To PV: I don't do semi-professional work here unless I have to. grin

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#2261386 - 04/14/14 04:02 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
pv88 Offline
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@Polyphonist,

Sorry for the distraction (although that was directed at Mark only) and I wanted to add that your playing appears to be quite accomplished, above. Very nicely done.

Questions:

1) Do you ever give reviews or comments on other members recordings? And, if not, why?

2) Can I request a review of the recording, below?

Members Recordings

Please note:

So far, it appears that hardly anyone is interested in posting comments as I see very little involvement.

And, it's not just one recording - as many others in that forum remain or go unanswered, also.

Otherwise, it may be a waste of time posting recordings!

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#2261545 - 04/14/14 12:09 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: pv88]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: pv88
1) Do you ever give reviews or comments on other members recordings?

I used to, but I have mainly ceased to do so.
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Polyphonist

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#2261550 - 04/14/14 12:18 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
prout Offline
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Very nicely done. Beautiful lines and voicing. A pleasure to hear. Thank you.

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#2261623 - 04/14/14 02:53 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Vid Offline
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Nice job!

I bought a book of the chorales a while ago to see what I could learn. This makes me want to pick it up again and try to perform them.
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#2261631 - 04/14/14 03:13 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
carey Online   content
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Poly - Thanks for sharing these. Well played !!

Mark - I as introduced to the "371" in Freshman theory class as well. "Holy" or not, they are all wonderful little musical gems. I've played several of them over the years in various Protestant churches - both on piano and organ. Certainly not uncommon.


Edited by carey (04/14/14 03:20 PM)
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#2261686 - 04/14/14 06:11 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Louis Podesta Offline
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Just like all of the other critics that have reviewed recordings with it present, is there any reason no one said anything about all of the rolled chords.

According to my recent correspondence with Robert Levin of Harvard, it is an expressive device that has been utilized from the pre-Baroque period until the Impressionists.

By the way, even though it is a transcription, I think it could be played a little more forcefully. It is a chorale, and in my world that means song-like (as in Bel Canto Aria style).

Schutze, Scheidt, and Schein were incorporating Italian vocal styles into German music before the time of Bach.

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#2261695 - 04/14/14 06:29 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
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I knew Louis would be around at some point with the rolled-chords business. laugh
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#2261700 - 04/14/14 06:44 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Vid Offline
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#2261707 - 04/14/14 07:01 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Online   content
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While Louis is busy rolling his chords, we're rolling our eyes. smile

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#2261736 - 04/14/14 07:54 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
prout Offline
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Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta

Just like all of the other critics that have reviewed recordings with it present, is there any reason no one said anything about all of the rolled chords.

According to my recent correspondence with Robert Levin of Harvard, it is an expressive device that has been utilized from the pre-Baroque period until the Impressionists.

By the way, even though it is a transcription, I think it could be played a little more forcefully. It is a chorale, and in my world that means song-like (as in Bel Canto Aria style).

Schutze, Scheidt, and Schein were incorporating Italian vocal styles into German music before the time of Bach.

Please excuse my navet, but why should we be discussing the use of rolled chords? Are you saying it was appropriate, or inappropriate? I would certainly roll chords on a harpsichord as a means of increasing sustain and reducing the intensity of the attack. On the piano, there are other reasons for rolling chords in a Bach Harmonized Chorale. What Poly did certainly was musical. Please explain.

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#2261738 - 04/14/14 07:57 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
pv88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: pv88
1) Do you ever give reviews or comments on other members recordings?

I used to, but I have mainly ceased to do so.


I think the issue might be that if we all do as you do above then no one will end up receiving any replies or feedback on their recordings. Looks like posting a recording for review may very well be a lost cause in the "Members Recordings" forum as many of us still have "0" replies to date.

Are most members not interested in the recordings being presented?

And, what are your reasons for not contributing?

Any other ideas on this?

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#2261739 - 04/14/14 07:58 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: pv88]
JoelW Online   content
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I honestly think the Members Recordings sub-forum should be trashed and people should just post their recordings in the Pianists Corner forum. It gets more view traffic, and a sub-forum for member recordings is really quite unnecessary in my opinion.

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#2261752 - 04/14/14 08:21 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: JoelW]
pv88 Offline
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@JoelW,

You bring up a good point as we might as well post recordings in some of the other forums - and, see how it goes.

Good advice!

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#2261809 - 04/14/14 10:13 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
....is there any reason no one said anything about all of the rolled chords....

yes

Originally Posted By: prout
....Please explain.

I think you'll regret asking. grin


Louis: In case you really don't realize, the reason is that nobody else here regards this as a major thing. It's just one of many, many details of performance practice that could be mentioned in almost anything -- as are those many many other things.

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#2261810 - 04/14/14 10:14 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
I honestly think the Members Recordings sub-forum should be trashed and people should just post their recordings in the Pianists Corner forum. It gets more view traffic, and a sub-forum for member recordings is really quite unnecessary in my opinion.

This section got set up because it didn't work great with recordings sort of cluttering up the regular section.
I mean, it was a little more complicated than that, but that's the Cliff's Notes.

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#2261816 - 04/14/14 10:34 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Mark_C]
carey Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I honestly think the Members Recordings sub-forum should be trashed and people should just post their recordings in the Pianists Corner forum. It gets more view traffic, and a sub-forum for member recordings is really quite unnecessary in my opinion.

This section got set up because it didn't work great with recordings sort of cluttering up the regular section.
I mean, it was a little more complicated than that, but that's the Cliff's Notes.

Mark is correct.

The reality is that many folks here lead busy lives. Taking time to listen to and constructively critique the recordings of others doesn't seem to be a priority right now with our current Pianist Corner participants - even those who have regularly done so in the past. Then, of course, I've noticed that the sheer number of recordings being posted here has increased significantly, further complicating the situation.

So to those frustrated by the lack of response, go ahead and post your recordings elsewhere and see what happens.
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#2261840 - 04/14/14 11:49 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Do you know/play a lot of them?

Yes, I play all of them. Would you like to hear more?
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Polyphonist

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#2262015 - 04/15/14 08:33 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: JoelW]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
I honestly think the Members Recordings sub-forum should be trashed and people should just post their recordings in the Pianists Corner forum. It gets more view traffic, and a sub-forum for member recordings is really quite unnecessary in my opinion.


The fact that the Members Recordings sub-forum gets less traffic is one very good reason for having it.

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#2262064 - 04/15/14 10:15 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3930
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Do you know/play a lot of them?

Yes, I play all of them. Would you like to hear more?


I would. The two you posted were very nicely played, imo.

Question: Do you have an overriding "concept" in the execution? Or, do you just dive in a play 'em?

--Andy
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#2262108 - 04/15/14 12:31 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: JoelW]
Damon Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
I honestly think the Members Recordings sub-forum should be trashed and people should just post their recordings in the Pianists Corner forum. It gets more view traffic, and a sub-forum for member recordings is really quite unnecessary in my opinion.


There used to be just a single 'members recording' area that hardly got any attention at all. (it's still there) In order to get more attention, people would put their recordings in the other forums which would irritate a large percentage of members. These sub-forums were created to alleviate some of the injustice of not being heard while respecting the status quo. If you're recording isn't getting the number of comments you want, that might be a good thing!
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#2262114 - 04/15/14 12:44 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Mark_C]
Vid Offline
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Registered: 06/12/01
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Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Louis: In case you really don't realize, the reason is that nobody else here regards this as a major thing. It's just one of many, many details of performance practice that could be mentioned in almost anything -- as are those many many other things.


Also, as a performance practice its common knowledge so its not like he stumbled upon a great discovery that he makes it out to be. In particular for performing these chorales you simply cannot reach some of the intervals as block chords so its unavoidable to roll.
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#2262117 - 04/15/14 12:49 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Vid]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Vid
In particular for performing these chorales you simply cannot reach some of the intervals as block chords so its unavoidable to roll.

Actually, in these particular chorales, everything can be reached.
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Polyphonist

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#2262125 - 04/15/14 01:05 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Damon]
JoelW Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I honestly think the Members Recordings sub-forum should be trashed and people should just post their recordings in the Pianists Corner forum. It gets more view traffic, and a sub-forum for member recordings is really quite unnecessary in my opinion.


There used to be just a single 'members recording' area that hardly got any attention at all. (it's still there) In order to get more attention, people would put their recordings in the other forums which would irritate a large percentage of members. These sub-forums were created to alleviate some of the injustice of not being heard while respecting the status quo. If you're recording isn't getting the number of comments you want, that might be a good thing!

But my argument is that all member recordings should just be posted in the regular Pianist Corner, like anything else. If you were at a party full of pianists, wouldn't you rather perform in the main room where everyone's hanging out, rather than some secluded bedroom?

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#2262127 - 04/15/14 01:08 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
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What annoys me more than that is the Composers forum, which also gets almost no traffic.
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Polyphonist

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#2262134 - 04/15/14 01:14 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Vid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Vid
In particular for performing these chorales you simply cannot reach some of the intervals as block chords so its unavoidable to roll.

Actually, in these particular chorales, everything can be reached.


Then how dare you roll those chords! grin
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#2262135 - 04/15/14 01:14 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Vid]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Vid
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Vid
In particular for performing these chorales you simply cannot reach some of the intervals as block chords so its unavoidable to roll.

Actually, in these particular chorales, everything can be reached.


Then how dare you roll those chords! grin

grin
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Polyphonist

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#2262141 - 04/15/14 01:27 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: JoelW]
carey Online   content
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I honestly think the Members Recordings sub-forum should be trashed and people should just post their recordings in the Pianists Corner forum. It gets more view traffic, and a sub-forum for member recordings is really quite unnecessary in my opinion.


There used to be just a single 'members recording' area that hardly got any attention at all. (it's still there) In order to get more attention, people would put their recordings in the other forums which would irritate a large percentage of members. These sub-forums were created to alleviate some of the injustice of not being heard while respecting the status quo. If you're recording isn't getting the number of comments you want, that might be a good thing!

But my argument is that all member recordings should just be posted in the regular Pianist Corner, like anything else. If you were at a party full of pianists, wouldn't you rather perform in the main room where everyone's hanging out, rather than some secluded bedroom?

I see it more as an adjoining family room, clearly visible when you enter the living room (i.e., first link see at top of Pianist Corner page). This makes it easier For me to access and follow the postings and discussions. Guess we're all different !!
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#2262143 - 04/15/14 01:29 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Old Man Offline
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Beautifully played, Polyphonist. These are indeed little gems, and I'd like to hear more. But c'mon, couldn't you give us a little more than a minute of music? smile

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: pv88
1) Do you ever give reviews or comments on other members recordings?

I used to, but I have mainly ceased to do so.

pv88, Polyphonist used to give reviews regularly. In general, I thought they were detailed, thoughtful, direct, and to the point. But because he didn't preface each statement with "May I humbly suggest", his reviews were deemed by several members as being rude, condescending, inconsiderate, and downright offensive. So once you've had your head handed to you a few times, I guess you begin to develop a sore neck.

The problem is that posters are not always clear about what they expect from potential listeners. Some are simply presenting, and don't ask for anything. Others will say "comments welcome", or "looking for constructive criticism" (usually a euphemism for "no criticism".) So being a "reviewer" can often be as risky as being the "reviewee". grin

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#2262167 - 04/15/14 02:00 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
carey Online   content
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Registered: 05/13/05
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The original Lutheran chorale tunes were intended for congregational singing. As a former choral conducting major I can't help but keep this in mind when I play the Bach chorale arrangements. Poly's interpretations are quite lovely and personal. His pacing of Nunn Komm der Heiden Heiland would be suited for congregational singing (led by an organ). The ebb and flow of his reading of Fruet euch, irh Christen seems more suited for performance by a choir closely following their director. grin
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#2262183 - 04/15/14 02:50 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
What annoys me more than that is the Composers forum, which also gets almost no traffic.

+ 1

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#2262188 - 04/15/14 02:56 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
prout Offline
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Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Vid
In particular for performing these chorales you simply cannot reach some of the intervals as block chords so its unavoidable to roll.

Actually, in these particular chorales, everything can be reached.


You must have huge hands to reach the 12th in measure 13 of #8.

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#2262189 - 04/15/14 02:57 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
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11th.
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Polyphonist

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#2262194 - 04/15/14 03:04 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
prout Offline
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
11th.

In my edition of the 371 chorales the bass note is F2 and the tenor note is C4. Have I be labouring under a lifelong delusion that those two notes make an 11th? My world is shattered!

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#2262198 - 04/15/14 03:09 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
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Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
The shorter interval is to take the top three voices with the RH.
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#2262200 - 04/15/14 03:10 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: carey]
prout Offline
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Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: carey
The original Lutheran chorale tunes were intended for congregational singing. As a former choral conducting major I can't help but keep this in mind when I play the Bach chorale arrangements. Poly's interpretations are quite lovely and personal. His pacing of Nunn Komm der Heiden Heiland would be suited for congregational singing (led by an organ). The ebb and flow of his reading of Fruet euch, irh Christen seems more suited for performance by a choir closely following their director. grin

One should keep in mind that many of these chorales predate Lutheranism and are, in fact, modal and also do not necessarily maintain the same key from beginning to end - #56 for example. Bach starts it in E minor and ends in F# Major.

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#2262201 - 04/15/14 03:11 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
prout Offline
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Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
The shorter interval is to take the top three voices with the RH.

I tried that, but can't stretch it either. I like the way you did it.

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#2262237 - 04/15/14 04:21 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: prout]
carey Online   content
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Originally Posted By: prout
Originally Posted By: carey
The original Lutheran chorale tunes were intended for congregational singing. As a former choral conducting major I can't help but keep this in mind when I play the Bach chorale arrangements. Poly's interpretations are quite lovely and personal. His pacing of Nunn Komm der Heiden Heiland would be suited for congregational singing (led by an organ). The ebb and flow of his reading of Fruet euch, irh Christen seems more suited for performance by a choir closely following their director. grin

One should keep in mind that many of these chorales predate Lutheranism and are, in fact, modal and also do not necessarily maintain the same key from beginning to end - #56 for example. Bach starts it in E minor and ends in F# Major.

Good observation !! As for "pre-dating Lutheranism, the Nun Komm der Heiden Heiland tune is based on the melody of the Latin hymn Veni redemptor gentium. Luther often set different German texts to the same melody. Of course, Bach would vary his settings of those repeated chorale tunes so each was unique.
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#2262312 - 04/15/14 06:50 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: JoelW]
currawong Offline
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Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
What annoys me more than that is the Composers forum, which also gets almost no traffic.
+ 1

The Composers' Forum doesn't have the traffic of the Pianists' Corner for sure, but over the (7) years I've been here it's had some very productive discussions and some stunning music. If it's not always a hive of stimulating discussion and interesting music, I like to think it's because we're all spending our time composing instead of hanging around an internet forum.
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#2262378 - 04/15/14 09:39 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
doctor S Offline
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Registered: 05/27/12
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Loc: Western PA
More chorales, please!

Do you countenance any chorale arrangements by Busoni, or perhaps the Petri choral prelude BWV 668?
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#2262725 - 04/16/14 06:35 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Louis Podesta Offline
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Golly gee, Dr. Mark C. (it rhymes): if my comment was no big deal, there certainly has been much said about it.

As stated in one source: "A chorale is a melody to which a hymn is sung by a congregation in a German Protestant Church service. The typical four-part setting of a chorale, in which the sopranos (and the congregation) sing the melody along with three lower voices, is known as a chorale harmonization."

Does this say anything about playing this music on a hammerklavier? I don't really think so.

Therefore, just like any other transcription, it is up to the performer to authenticate as much of the original essence of the composer as they can, while at the same time lending their own voice to the rendering.

As aforementioned, as far as the arpeggiation is concerned, it wasn't written for the piano, and therefore the so-called intervals are transcribed intervals. Plus, as mentioned in an earlier reply, organists and harpsichord players often spread chords while performing.

But, does the average player have knowledge of this? NO, THEY DO NOT!!!

More importantly, if any piano major got up in a Jury and did this, they would be given a grade of "C" and disqualified as a major. In that there are 644 U.S. accredited college/university music schools by the NAMS, this is the point, people!

Finally, in that this is a posted performance and Carey is an excellent Bach player (and then some), why don't we encourage him to post a performance of his own of these same two chorales. Hey, why not live dangerously and post two, one with and one without.

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#2262896 - 04/17/14 02:41 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
Tony007 Offline
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Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 137
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Finally, in that this is a posted performance and Carey is an excellent Bach player (and then some), why don't we encourage him to post a performance of his own of these same two chorales. Hey, why not live dangerously and post two, one with and one without.


Louis Podesta is an excellent Bach talker. Why don't we encourage him to play for us as well? I'm waiting for these two chorales in a "version to end all versions" laugh

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#2262898 - 04/17/14 02:45 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
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Loc: New York City
I still can't figure out whether Louis is complimenting or criticizing my performances.
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Polyphonist

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#2262901 - 04/17/14 02:48 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Tony007 Offline
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Registered: 12/27/13
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Loc: Switzerland
By the way: it's about Polyphonist and his versions of two Bach Chorales here. And he does a very good job! And my humble ears can even detect some asynchronized chords smile

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#2262902 - 04/17/14 02:50 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Tony007 Offline
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Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 137
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I still can't figure out whether Louis is complimenting or criticizing my performances.


Never mind laugh

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#2262907 - 04/17/14 03:08 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
carey Online   content
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Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta

Finally, in that this is a posted performance and Carey is an excellent Bach player (and then some), why don't we encourage him to post a performance of his own of these same two chorales. Hey, why not live dangerously and post two, one with and one without.

Louis - I appreciate the compliment, but I don't want to turn this into a "dueling chorales" thread !! Plus I promised my wife that I'd keep the recording equipment out of the living room for a few months.

Poly - Regarding those 11ths in measure 13: YOU must have very large hands compared to the average pianist if you can play these without rolling them.
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#2263155 - 04/17/14 04:56 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Old Man Offline
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Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I still can't figure out whether Louis is complimenting or criticizing my performances.

I think it's a compliment to you, but a backhand to the rest of us. grin


Edited by Old Man (04/17/14 05:04 PM)

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#2263160 - 04/17/14 05:09 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Tony007]
Old Man Offline
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Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Tony007
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Finally, in that this is a posted performance and Carey is an excellent Bach player (and then some), why don't we encourage him to post a performance of his own of these same two chorales. Hey, why not live dangerously and post two, one with and one without.

Louis Podesta is an excellent Bach talker. Why don't we encourage him to play for us as well? I'm waiting for these two chorales in a "version to end all versions" laugh

thumb
Hope you didn't start holding your breath yet. Wait til we give the signal!

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#2263163 - 04/17/14 05:18 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Old Man]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I still can't figure out whether Louis is complimenting or criticizing my performances.

I think it's a compliment to you, but a backhand to the rest of us. grin

I see. whistle
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Polyphonist

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#2263185 - 04/17/14 06:24 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
Louis Podesta Offline
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Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 741
Polyphonist:

You did/tread where other choose not to go. Therefore, you are do just praise for making the effort.

In that I always haul up some old recording to further my point, I leave you with a Bach recording made on a Welte-Mignon.

You remember those as not being able to play a block chord. Well, here you get to hear both.

And, Carey will comment on just who the first performer was.

Parenthetically, the reason my friend Ken Caswell recorded the rolls over again was that initial renderings like this did not reflect the actual performance. They sounded jilted in places like this one because the tension on the Welte device was not properly adjusted.

Please listen because this type of transcription was a very common way Bach was initially played in performance "on the piano."


http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Welt...790B41C41104B2D

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#2263214 - 04/17/14 08:08 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
carey Online   content
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
And the first performer was....(from Wikipedia)

"Silvio Vittore Alberto Scionti (born 20 November 1882; d 22 May 1973) was an Italian-born American pianist and teacher. Born in Acireale, Sicily, he trained at the Royal Conservatory in Naples. He eventually settled in the United States, teaching at the American Conservatory of Music, the Chicago Musical College, and the University of North Texas College of Music from 1942 to 1953, and privately in the Dallas area. He performed as a soloist numerous times with the Chicago and Minneapolis orchestras, and frequently gave recitals. After 1935, he and his wife Isabel toured Europe, Mexico, and the United States. He also recorded a handful of piano rolls."

Scionti's students included Ivan Davis and Jack Roberts, both of whom studied with him in the late 1940s. (Louis and I studied with Roberts at UNT in the early 1970's).

Louis - It was fun to hear this !! Thanks for sharing !!




Edited by carey (04/17/14 08:10 PM)
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#2263221 - 04/17/14 08:28 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Polyphonist:

You did/tread where other choose not to go. Therefore, you are do just praise for making the effort.

What effort?
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Polyphonist

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#2263248 - 04/17/14 10:09 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
doctor S Offline
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Registered: 05/27/12
Posts: 137
Loc: Western PA
Poly, unalloyed praise for the chorales. More please!

Although I would like to hear your harmonizations, do you play or comment on Busoni or Petri transcriptions/arrangements of Bach chorales, choral preludes, etc?
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#2263352 - 04/18/14 04:57 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
Tony007 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 137
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Polyphonist:

You did/tread where other choose not to go. Therefore, you are do just praise for making the effort.

In that I always haul up some old recording to further my point, I leave you with a Bach recording made on a Welte-Mignon.

You remember those as not being able to play a block chord. Well, here you get to hear both.

And, Carey will comment on just who the first performer was.

Parenthetically, the reason my friend Ken Caswell recorded the rolls over again was that initial renderings like this did not reflect the actual performance. They sounded jilted in places like this one because the tension on the Welte device was not properly adjusted.

Please listen because this type of transcription was a very common way Bach was initially played in performance "on the piano."


http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Welt...790B41C41104B2D


Louis Podesta is still talking, talking, talking, "leaving us" with some recordings "furthering his point", dropping names of his famous friends, but never, never playing for us cry

How can we encourage this great expert to reveal his mastership to us? Old piano rolls are not a substitute for real human playing and breathing, they sound like roboters, I'm so sorry! But there is a pianist and philosopher among us who can be our role model. Why is he so shy?

By the way: I still like the recordings of Polyphonist very much, and it's not a "backhand" against anybody else, it's simply what I think when listening to his Bach Chorales!

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#2264263 - 04/19/14 07:18 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: carey]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 741
Originally Posted By: carey
And the first performer was....(from Wikipedia)

"Silvio Vittore Alberto Scionti (born 20 November 1882; d 22 May 1973) was an Italian-born American pianist and teacher. Born in Acireale, Sicily, he trained at the Royal Conservatory in Naples. He eventually settled in the United States, teaching at the American Conservatory of Music, the Chicago Musical College, and the University of North Texas College of Music from 1942 to 1953, and privately in the Dallas area. He performed as a soloist numerous times with the Chicago and Minneapolis orchestras, and frequently gave recitals. After 1935, he and his wife Isabel toured Europe, Mexico, and the United States. He also recorded a handful of piano rolls."

Scionti's students included Ivan Davis and Jack Roberts, both of whom studied with him in the late 1940s. (Louis and I studied with Roberts at UNT in the early 1970's).

Louis - It was fun to hear this !! Thanks for sharing !!



With all due respect to my dear friend Carey, Silvio Scionti was listed as a somewhat faculty member in literature associated with North Texas State University," (as it was known at that time) until the day he died (from 1953 until 1973).

They actually used to wheel him in his wheel chair through the back door of this enormous music school for a special lesson. One of those lessons was Miss America, Phyllis George, who used to list him in her bio as her major teacher.

The point, Louis?: The point is that this man was the last, in our part of the piano musical world, of those who had formally matriculated in the 19th century. Included in this were those compositional skills required of those who were expected to play their own compositions in performance.

Accordingly, he recorded the Saint-Saens Bach transcription of the Gavotte. That means: do not believe me, but do believe the un-edited (Welte made them sign a contract) recorded version of this piece the way most others played it.

Did he/they utilize (in all of their performances/recordings) the original composers style of playing, which also included asychronization, improvisation, and tempo modification?

Yes, they did!

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#2264272 - 04/19/14 07:28 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
Originally Posted By: carey
And the first performer was....(from Wikipedia)

"Silvio Vittore Alberto Scionti (born 20 November 1882; d 22 May 1973) was an Italian-born American pianist and teacher. Born in Acireale, Sicily, he trained at the Royal Conservatory in Naples. He eventually settled in the United States, teaching at the American Conservatory of Music, the Chicago Musical College, and the University of North Texas College of Music from 1942 to 1953, and privately in the Dallas area. He performed as a soloist numerous times with the Chicago and Minneapolis orchestras, and frequently gave recitals. After 1935, he and his wife Isabel toured Europe, Mexico, and the United States. He also recorded a handful of piano rolls."

Scionti's students included Ivan Davis and Jack Roberts, both of whom studied with him in the late 1940s. (Louis and I studied with Roberts at UNT in the early 1970's).

Louis - It was fun to hear this !! Thanks for sharing !!


With all due respect to my dear friend Carey, Silvio Scionti was listed as a somewhat faculty member in literature associated with North Texas State University," (as it was known at that time) until the day he died (from 1953 until 1973).

They actually used to wheel him in his wheel chair through the back door of this enormous music school for a special lesson. One of those lessons was Miss America, Phyllis George, who used to list him in her bio as her major teacher.


You're bringing back lots of memories Louis !! grin You are indeed correct about Scionti's continuing "connection" to NTSU well after he stopped teaching there full time in 1953. I recall that I gave my Master's Recital at NTSU about five weeks before Scionti passed away.


Edited by carey (04/19/14 07:28 PM)
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#2264696 - 04/20/14 07:48 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
RachFan Offline
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Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1341
Loc: Maine, U.S.
Hi Polyphonist,

I just listened to your two Bach Chorales. You articulate them very well, they flow nicely, and you play them with expression too. Very nice!

David

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#2265289 - 04/22/14 12:57 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
WellTemperedPizza Offline
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Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 64
Loc: London, UK
I very much enjoyed listening to these recordings (I'm less familiar with the chorales than other areas of Bach's music, but I often hear them praised) and would encourage Polyphonist to submit more!

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#2265434 - 04/22/14 06:19 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: WellTemperedPizza]
Louis Podesta Offline
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Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 741
Originally Posted By: WellTemperedPizza
I very much enjoyed listening to these recordings (I'm less familiar with the chorales than other areas of Bach's music, but I often hear them praised) and would encourage Polyphonist to submit more!

I second the motion. Every freshman theory student is forced to listen to some TA bang through these in order to teach four part harmony.

Would it not be great if we heard more of them professionally played, again!

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#2266678 - 04/24/14 11:56 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
TwoSnowflakes Online   blank
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Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1319
I have some constructive criticism: they were too short. I was just settling in for some thoroughly enjoyable Bach and then it was all over.

I encourage you to post more recordings.
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#2267111 - 04/25/14 07:30 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 741
Originally Posted By: TwoSnowflakes
I have some constructive criticism: they were too short. I was just settling in for some thoroughly enjoyable Bach and then it was all over.

I encourage you to post more recordings.

Thank you for asking. There were 371 Chorales, which somewhat answers your question regarding brevity.

They were not written for the Hammerklavier, and the OP should be applauded for taking the courage and insight for recording and presenting these (especially with authentic expressive stylistic devices).

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#2269235 - 04/30/14 07:02 PM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Polyphonist]
DonaldLee Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 168
Poly,

These were lovely. You made the voices sing so well. They made me smile =)

Donald
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Currently working on:
Brahms Op. 118
Mozart Sonata K. 576
Bach Prelude and Fugue in b-flat minor (WTC Book I)
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#2290308 - 06/16/14 03:29 AM Re: Bach - Chorales 8 + 170 [Re: Louis Podesta]
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1164
Loc: Stockholms ln, Sverige
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta

More importantly, if any piano major got up in a Jury and did this, they would be given a grade of "C" and disqualified as a major. In that there are 644 U.S. accredited college/university music schools by the NAMS, this is the point, people!

Hi Louis, I don't think you give piano professors enough credit. I can't imagine any of them having an issue with the playing in these two chorale recordings - of course what we are hearing is the playing of a grown man with an artistically mature style, not a 17 or 18 year old who they would feel needs to be taught and meticulously so. If a student has a liberated, self-directed style of play, then what is the function of the teacher? I had one piano professor who didn't mind, but in consequence all he could do every week was sit back and watch.

Polyphonist: your playing of these has a tremendous sense of presence and quietude, I would love to hear more of the 371 under your hands.

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