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#2261735 - 04/14/14 07:53 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20171
Loc: New York City
The thread title is completely erroneous. For both the public and pianists(at least what I've heard at the Mannes IKIF for the last 13 years), Rachmaninov is very popular.

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#2261761 - 04/14/14 08:37 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
hreichgott Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1706
Loc: western MA, USA
Rachmaninoff
Quote:
isn't on any 'top 10 romantic composer's' lists

Therefore
Quote:
People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all.


... I guess that would be true if people were only capable of liking 10 composers?

(for what it's worth, my soundcloud channel has about a dozen recordings on it, and the lone Rachmaninoff has 201 views, while all the others have between 20 and 85.)
_________________________
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Working on:
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I love Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and new music

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#2261771 - 04/14/14 08:54 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1470
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Svenno
And i don't know why. He isn't on any 'top 10 romantic composer's' lists - but he was a romantic composer, wasn't he? Chopin seems to be the most favoured, and i really like his music too, in fact i can't decide which my all time favorite composer is, Rachmaninoff or Chopin. :p

Can anyone explain what's wrong with Rachmaninoff?
Legit question. Trolling?

Top ten composers performed in American symphonic concert halls, 2010-11
1. Beethoven
2. Mozart
3. Tchaikovsky
4. Brahms
5. Ravel
6. Dvo&#345;ak
7. Sibelius
8. Prokofiev
9. Stravinsky
10. Rachmaninoff

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display...CampaignId=6383

-Daniel
_________________________
Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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#2261780 - 04/14/14 09:09 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Ridicolosamente]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1937
Loc: Reseda, California
What a strange list.

Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Mendelsohn don't make the cut? But Prokofiev and Stravinsky do? Ravel ranks #5, but Debussy doesn't make the cut?
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-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
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#2261783 - 04/14/14 09:13 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8171
Loc: New York City
Bach and Chopin didn't write symphonic music. Ravel is probably on there because of one piece. grin
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Polyphonist

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#2261786 - 04/14/14 09:23 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: JohnSprung]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1470
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Well it's a list of frequent performances which are naturally dominated by "orchestral" works. And...

-Bach besides choral and solo instrument music = boring (I welcome your retaliatory punches)
-Chopin - whatever little orchestral music there is = a joke
-Prokofiev has a very rightful place on that list
-Stravinsky created a little something called "Rite of Spring"
-Orchestrations of La Valse and Alborada del gracioso seem to appear much more frequently than La Mer...
-Mendelssohn... I'll stop because I feel like a negative Nancy.

-Daniel
_________________________
Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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#2261790 - 04/14/14 09:31 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Ridicolosamente]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8171
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Ridicolosamente
-Bach besides choral and solo instrument music = boring (I welcome your retaliatory punches)

Punch #1 on the way.

Originally Posted By: Ridicolosamente
-Chopin - whatever little orchestral music there is = a joke

There isn't any.

Originally Posted By: Ridicolosamente
-Prokofiev has a very rightful place on that list

Does he indeed?

Originally Posted By: Ridicolosamente
-Mendelssohn... I'll stop because I feel like a negative Nancy.

Oh, is Mendelssohn boring too?
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Polyphonist

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#2261812 - 04/14/14 10:21 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
Eldridge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/14
Posts: 94
Loc: New Mexico
I can't imagine anyone finding Rachmaninoff's music equal in quality to Chopin's.

I looked at a ranking of composers by recording sales. Mozart was first, Chopin was sixteenth, and Rachmaninoff didn't even make the top forty. So, no Rachmaninoff is not as beloved as Chopin--understandably, in my opinion.
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#2261813 - 04/14/14 10:23 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Eldridge]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8171
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Eldridge
I can't imagine anyone finding Rachmaninoff's music equal in quality to Chopin's.

It definitely isn't.
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Polyphonist

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#2261836 - 04/14/14 11:39 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Ridicolosamente]
phantomFive Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 2221
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Ridicolosamente
Originally Posted By: Svenno
And i don't know why. He isn't on any 'top 10 romantic composer's' lists - but he was a romantic composer, wasn't he? Chopin seems to be the most favoured, and i really like his music too, in fact i can't decide which my all time favorite composer is, Rachmaninoff or Chopin. :p

Can anyone explain what's wrong with Rachmaninoff?
Legit question. Trolling?

Top ten composers performed in American symphonic concert halls, 2010-11
1. Beethoven
2. Mozart
3. Tchaikovsky
4. Brahms
5. Ravel
6. Dvo&#345;ak
7. Sibelius
8. Prokofiev
9. Stravinsky
10. Rachmaninoff

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display...CampaignId=6383

-Daniel

Wow, I sure didn't guess that list.
_________________________
"I was obliged to work hard; whoever works equally hard will succeed equally well." -Bach

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#2261873 - 04/15/14 01:11 AM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5750
Loc: Europe
I won't post in this thread...

I won't post in this thread...

I won't post in this thread...

Whoops! grin
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2261874 - 04/15/14 01:13 AM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8171
Loc: New York City
Let's be glad we haven't heard from argerichfan yet. wink
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2261881 - 04/15/14 01:27 AM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5750
Loc: Europe
lol
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#2261946 - 04/15/14 05:12 AM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Polyphonist]
argerichfan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 9037
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Let's be glad we haven't heard from argerichfan yet. wink

Well I do think it interesting that Brendan can get away with such horrors as this:

I don't like Rachmaninoff (and most other Russian music) because I find it to be both superficial and too hard for its worth.

Wow, if I had posted something so inflammatory, I would have been castrated.
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Jason

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#2261955 - 04/15/14 05:51 AM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Eldridge]
Svenno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/14
Posts: 218
Loc: Estonia
Originally Posted By: Eldridge
I can't imagine anyone finding Rachmaninoff's music equal in quality to Chopin's


seriously?

That might be true when you compare their solo piano work, but hey, "music" is a very broad term. It includes not only the solo piano pieces, but other instruments too.

Some say that chopin couldn't even understand orchestration, and needed help when composing his concertos. Rachmaninoff's piano concertos are are way ahead of his, especially in orchestration. And so are his other orchestral works.


Edited by Svenno (04/15/14 05:56 AM)
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Currently learning:
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Ligeti, "Five Pieces"
John Pitts, "Changes for 20 Nifty Fingers"
Shostakovich, Piano concerto no. 1
Gershwin, Rhap in Blue
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#2261959 - 04/15/14 06:06 AM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
argerichfan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 9037
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Svenno

And Chopin couldn't even understand orchestration.

Sorry, I cannot let this go without a challenge.

If you have not figured it out, the reason for the skimpy and rather dodgy orchestrations in the Chopin concertos should really be obvious if you know the works at all, do you?

Any heavier orchestrations would cover up the delectable writing for the piano. Chopin knew what he was doing, and any subsequent attempts to revise the orchestration have never worked.
_________________________
Jason

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#2261964 - 04/15/14 06:36 AM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: argerichfan]
bennevis Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 6212
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Svenno

And Chopin couldn't even understand orchestration.

Sorry, I cannot let this go without a challenge.

If you have not figured it out, the reason for the skimpy and rather dodgy orchestrations in the Chopin concertos should really be obvious if you know the works at all, do you?

Any heavier orchestrations would cover up the delectable writing for the piano. Chopin knew what he was doing, and any subsequent attempts to revise the orchestration have never worked.

The Irish pianist Měceál O'Rourke would beg to differ (www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mslx9)..... wink
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2261967 - 04/15/14 06:51 AM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Eldridge]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8291
Originally Posted By: Eldridge
I can't imagine anyone finding Rachmaninoff's music equal in quality to Chopin's.



If nothing else, that's a rather narrow view of the range of people's opinions. smile

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#2261995 - 04/15/14 07:49 AM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8291
Originally Posted By: Svenno


Can anyone explain what's wrong with Rachmaninoff?


Well, for one thing, during much of the 20th century, his music was seen by many critics and musicians as being so old-fashioned that it just couldn't be taken seriously, and performing it was often seen as pandering to the least cultivated people in the audience simply to increase income, rather than being for the sake of the art. Not only was it not cutting edge, it wasn't even up to speed with the middle of the pack. Finally, towards the end of the century, his reputation was slightly rehabilitated by a few conductors who championed his orchestral music. To me, it seems that some of those earlier negative attitudes are still around to some extent.

But I think there are other issues with much of his music that keep it out of the very top ranks. There are often formal problems - his musical structures often don't work really well, even if local moments can be wonderful (this can be a problem with Chopin, too, but Chopin's instincts seem just a bit better organized). Another issue is that the immediate emotional appeal of some of his music can drift into the realm of bad taste for some classical music lovers. Said a different way, it's just too sappy and sentimental.

Personally, I love his music without too many qualms - it is what it is and it still speaks to me through all of the flaws, and that's enough. How it is ranked by others doesn't really matter too much in the end, although I do like trying to understand why some people (especially musicians) aren't as captivated by it as I am.

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#2262113 - 04/15/14 12:42 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8171
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Let's be glad we haven't heard from argerichfan yet. wink

Well I do think it interesting that Brendan can get away with such horrors as this:

I don't like Rachmaninoff (and most other Russian music) because I find it to be both superficial and too hard for its worth.

Wow, if I had posted something so inflammatory, I would have been castrated.

You wouldn't. I've learned my lesson re attempting to respond to such posts.

Originally Posted By: Svenno
Originally Posted By: Eldridge
I can't imagine anyone finding Rachmaninoff's music equal in quality to Chopin's


seriously?

That might be true when you compare their solo piano work, but hey, "music" is a very broad term. It includes not only the solo piano pieces, but other instruments too.

Some say that chopin couldn't even understand orchestration, and needed help when composing his concertos. Rachmaninoff's piano concertos are are way ahead of his, especially in orchestration. And so are his other orchestral works.

Rachmaninoff cannot even hold a candle to Chopin, and I think that is pretty close to a fact. Once you've just heard a Chopin sonata, it's hard to listen to almost anything written afterwards without thinking how inferior it is.
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Polyphonist

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#2262351 - 04/15/14 08:44 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Polyphonist]
argerichfan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 9037
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist


Rachmaninoff cannot even hold a candle to Chopin, and I think that is pretty close to a fact.

Funny thing, we have bitched at each other so much... but facts are... facts.

And thank-you for that. (May I have time out now?)
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#2262355 - 04/15/14 08:49 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: argerichfan]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8171
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist


Rachmaninoff cannot even hold a candle to Chopin, and I think that is pretty close to a fact.

Funny thing, we have [censored] at each other so much... but facts are... facts.

Now all we have to do is wait for Joel to get in the middle of this. grin
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Polyphonist

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#2262367 - 04/15/14 09:18 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
JoelW Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5077
Loc: USA
Beethoven is the greatest composer of all time.

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#2262369 - 04/15/14 09:20 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8171
Loc: New York City
I'm not arguing with you there.
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Polyphonist

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#2262394 - 04/15/14 10:31 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
JoelW Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5077
Loc: USA
The Backstreet Boys are greater.

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#2262400 - 04/15/14 10:45 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8171
Loc: New York City
I'm sure.
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Polyphonist

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#2262404 - 04/15/14 11:02 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
JoelW Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5077
Loc: USA
It's true. Just listen to this genius chorus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fndeDfaWCg&t=0m54s

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#2262578 - 04/16/14 12:22 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: JoelW]
HauschkaEST Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 7
Rachmaninoff has been my favorite composer since age 14.

I just haven't found a composer who can parallel his combination of texture (see Rhapsody on a Theme by Pagannini), orchestration (flute taking theme in Rach 3, ahhh), bravura, nationalistic rhythms, depth.

He does it all for me. I especially think that he's the master of texture. He can make it rain notes, make the piano into a harp like parts of his 2nd sonata, and his music all has a strong personality. None of it is generic IMO.

His entire Etudes-Tableaux are fantastic.
_________________________
“Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music.”
&#8213; Sergei Rachmaninoff

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#2262625 - 04/16/14 02:33 PM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: Svenno]
JoelW Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5077
Loc: USA
What other composers do you know in depth?

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#2262863 - 04/17/14 01:17 AM Re: People don't seem to like Rachmaninoff at all. [Re: JoelW]
argerichfan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 9037
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: JoelW
It's true. Just listen to this genius chorus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fndeDfaWCg&t=0m54s

Wuz you serious?

What next, a link to a One Direction video? wink

Actually I've always rather liked that song.
_________________________
Jason

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