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#2262435 - 04/16/14 01:45 AM Tired Fingers
adanepst Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/15/14
Posts: 6
Hello all,

I'm wondering if someone might have advice for me. I'm a conservatory-trained pianist, and ever since I practiced the Brahms 51 exercises, rather intensively, daily, during my last two years at the conservatory (which at the outset improved my technique by leaps and strides), I have suffered from chronic/intermittent fatigue in my fingers, often seemingly independent of how much practicing I have been doing. There is no pain and no ostensible injury; at the time I went to a famous doctor who specializes in musicians' problems and he didn't find anything wrong. When this fatigue is present, it completely sabotages my technique and I can hardly play, or play very poorly (this problem ruined my exams at the conservatory). My fingers are simply very tired, and my dexterity is accordingly drastically reduced.

I have never met another pianist who had this problem of fingers getting tired so readily and then being practically unable to play. There are many moments and even periods when I am able to play normally, but this recurrent fatigue makes it extremely difficult to attain any kind of stable level in my playing.

(My technique is otherwise all right in terms of playing without tension, or without excessive tension)

Does anyone have an idea of what I can do to heal this problem?

I have very recently expermented with doing various improvised slow and gradual stretches of my fingers, hands, and wrists, and this is the very first thing I have ever tried that has helped. Are there stretches specifically for pianists that anyone knows of and that they can recommend?

I would be very grateful for anyhelp.

Many thanks in advance,
adanepst

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#2262436 - 04/16/14 01:55 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1487
Loc: California
Sometimes my fingers get tired, and I lift heavy things. It drastically decreases my recovery time. Just getting your hands muscles doing something different.

Get yourself a gym membership and lift some weights with your hands. Like curls, or pullups or bench press, whatever involves carrying a lot with your hands.

There's a lot of isometric contractions going on when you play the piano, it feels good to get your hands doing full contractions for a change.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2262439 - 04/16/14 02:00 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
The sensation of tired fingers is almost certainly caused by depletion of fluids; there are no muscles in the fingers.

Does it happen after practicing for some hours, or right away?
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262442 - 04/16/14 02:07 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
adanepst Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/15/14
Posts: 6
Thank you for your replies. An interesting suggestion about doing some other kind of physical activity with my hands. I do pushups every day, but I might consider a more extended workout involving my arms and hands.

Atrys: it generally happens after practicing for some hours, but if I have practiced for some hours the previous day, the tiredness can be there the following day at the very beginning of my practicing.

I am interested: could you explain to me something about depletion of fluids?

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#2262444 - 04/16/14 02:28 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: adanepst
it generally happens after practicing for some hours, but if I have practiced for some hours the previous day, the tiredness can be there the following day at the very beginning of my practicing ... could you explain to me something about depletion of fluids?

If you've been practicing for too long your playing muscles will fatigue and begin to deplete their fluids. If not enough time is given to them to recover, this sensation won't go away.

There's also the possibility that you may be using playing muscles in such a way that isn't healthy for human physiology (our old friend tension).

Do your fingers also feel cold when they get tired? What exactly does the sensation feel like, and exactly where do you feel it?

This might be something to investigate with your GP.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262445 - 04/16/14 02:39 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
adanepst Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/15/14
Posts: 6
Thank you, Atrys, for your detailed reponse. (And, by the way, for the wonderful Emerson quote in your signature)

My fingers do not feel cold when they get tired; the sensation is similar to other kinds of muscle fatigue after exertion - a general feeling of tiredness in the muscles (anatomically speaking, I don't know if in this case it is muscles, or tendons, or ligaments...), and the fingers being able to do much less at the piano as a result: decreased dexterity and agility.

Perhaps there is a way to speed up recovery time of the muscles fatigued and depleted of their fluids?

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#2262446 - 04/16/14 02:45 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1487
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: adanepst
Thank you for your replies. An interesting suggestion about doing some other kind of physical activity with my hands. I do pushups every day, but I might consider a more extended workout involving my arms and hands

The important thing is gripping with your hands, so that's why I suggested the specific exercises I did.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2262448 - 04/16/14 02:53 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: adanepst

Perhaps there is a way to speed up recovery time of the muscles fatigued and depleted of their fluids?

I'm not claiming this to be the cause, but drink lots and lots and lots of water. Refrain from using the muscles too. The likelihood that this is caused by unrecovered muscles is pretty low unless you play for a very long time every day. Even then, the probability is little-to-none, as your muscles will have built up and adapted to the demand long ago.

Originally Posted By: adanepst

My fingers do not feel cold when they get tired; the sensation is similar to other kinds of muscle fatigue after exertion - a general feeling of tiredness in the muscles (anatomically speaking, I don't know if in this case it is muscles, or tendons, or ligaments...), and the fingers being able to do much less at the piano as a result: decreased dexterity and agility.

There are some members here with far better education than me on this stuff; hopefully they chime in later. If this isn't caused by unrecovered muscles, it may be unhealthy proportional use of playing muscles that drains your fluid compartments apart from blood (since your fingers stay warm). I'd visit your GP or a specialist and bring it up.

If you stop playing for a couple of days, how long until it's back?



Edited by Atrys (04/16/14 03:20 AM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262452 - 04/16/14 03:48 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
adanepst Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/15/14
Posts: 6
Thank you again for your replies! I will consider gymnastic or weight exercises that involve some gripping.

And I will keep this in mind about drinking a lot of water.

If I don't play for a couple of days, usually the fatigue is gone.

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#2262479 - 04/16/14 07:01 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
jdw Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 995
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
If you have gotten a thorough medical examination of the problem (and it sounds as if you did), I would strongly suggest getting a consultation from a specialist in ergonomic piano technique. They may be able to identify a possible cause in what you are doing at the keyboard.

The best I know of are the teachers of Taubman technique at the Golandsky Institute (www.golandskyinstitute.org)
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2262520 - 04/16/14 09:34 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5259
Originally Posted By: adanepst
Thank you again for your replies! I will consider gymnastic or weight exercises that involve some gripping.

And I will keep this in mind about drinking a lot of water.


Don't over-drink - fatigue in your fingers isn't due to dehydration: the advice Atrys gave you is plain wrong. You can get seriously ill from excessive drinking due to hyponatremia, so don't do it. Be guided by thirst and the color of your urine as to the state of your hydration. (If it's darker than pale yellow, you might need a drink - but not alcohol wink ).


It's the build-up of lactic acid in your muscles that's usually the cause of acute fatigue (which often manifests as a burning sensation, familiar to most athletes). The muscle glycogen stores get used during anaerobic metabolism when you work hard enough to push past the aerobic system, and lactate is a by-product, which needs clearing.

However, fatigue or pain that persists for the next day or two isn't due to lactate (which is cleared quickly) - it's due to delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS) which is from muscle damage. Playing the piano hard enough (especially with repetitive movements, as in practising the same difficult exercise incessantly) for long enough can cause it.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262526 - 04/16/14 09:50 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
gooddog Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4804
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Good suggestions above. If they don't work, I'd see a neurologist.
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Best regards,

Deborah

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#2262574 - 04/16/14 12:08 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
It's not lactic acid that's the problem, this would be very obvious to the OP. It's also not the infamous DOMS, as this too would be very obvious.

bennevis doesn't seem to understand fluid depletion very well. Let's also remind him that there are no muscles in the fingers. His input here is too naive to be taken seriously. One ought to stay away from the uninformed things he says (he still believes that "strong fingers" are the key to scales, which is nonsense).

Drink lots and lots of water OP, but this is certainly something to bring to a professional.


Edited by Atrys (04/16/14 12:14 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262593 - 04/16/14 12:56 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5259
Originally Posted By: Atrys

Drink lots and lots of water OP, but this is certainly something to bring to a professional.

Atrys, you need to realize when your advice is simply stupid and when your advice is dangerous.

You give a lot of the former, but when you start on the latter, I feel obliged to step in.

Have you never heard of the saying: "When you are in a hole, STOP digging"?

You've dug yourself several holes in almost as many posts, but instead of admitting your mistakes, keep attempting to justify them. (Others have shown you up.) It's time you crawled back into one of them.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262594 - 04/16/14 12:58 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1487
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Let's also remind him that there are no muscles in the fingers. His input here is too naive to be taken seriously. One ought to stay away from the uninformed things he says (he still believes that "strong fingers" are the key to scales, which is nonsense).

The OP didn't say what part of his fingers are getting tired; if I had to guess, I would say it's probably the muscles in his hand around the first knuckle, because there are muscles there
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2262599 - 04/16/14 01:16 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
adanepst Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/15/14
Posts: 6
Hello all,

and thanks again for your ideas and suggestions.

bennevis and atrys - I appreciate each of your ideas; even if they might seem to contradict each other, for me this is not a problem. I think truth is very big and inclusive, permits seeming oppositions, and includes them! So all ideas are welcome.

bennevis: I am interested to learn of DOMS for the first time. I just did some reading about this on the internet. Usually "soreness" is spoken of, but sometimes also of "stiffness." I don't have soreness, but this still might be the same, or a related, phenomenon.

phantomFive: the feeling of fatigue is generalized; I simply notice that the whole mechanism is tired and that my dexterity is greatly reduced, I can't play things I can usually play, or not as well.

I'm looking forward to looking into all the suggestions that have been offered here. Thanks again.

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#2262602 - 04/16/14 01:26 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5259
Originally Posted By: adanepst


bennevis: I am interested to learn of DOMS for the first time. I just did some reading about this on the internet. Usually "soreness" is spoken of, but sometimes also of "stiffness." I don't have soreness, but this still might be the same, or a related, phenomenon.


As I'm a runner and climber, I've had lots of personal experience of DOMs - not to mention 'hitting the wall' in the latter stages of marathons and long exhausting climbs (when your glycogen stores run out). As for lactate, it's something that all athletes get used to, and train for, to increase tolerance to it.

My experience of DOMS is of ache coupled with stiffness. Frequently more of the latter, and often the ache itself is hardly noticeable. It isn't localized, so sometimes it may not be evident how it came about, apart from the fact that it appears a while later.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262619 - 04/16/14 02:23 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Svenno Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/14
Posts: 149
Loc: Estonia
Bennevis, in order for someone to experience severe or possibly even lethal hyponatremia due to excess water intake, one would have to drink vast amounts of water, and doing so by accident is very, very rare. A lethal amount of water per day for a fully grown person, is about 10-15 litres. Drinking more than 4 litres of water per hour is definitely lethal, but drinking so much occurs only during stupid acts such as water drinking contests.


Edited by Svenno (04/16/14 02:26 PM)
_________________________
“Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination
and life to everything.”

― Plato

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#2262628 - 04/16/14 02:37 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
MarkH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 860
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Atrys
The sensation of tired fingers is almost certainly caused by depletion of fluids; there are no muscles in the fingers.


Highly trained medical professionals have difficulty diagnosing many orthopedic conditions after running tests in person. Keep that in mind any time a person gives you health advice over the internet with certainty.
_________________________
Currently Studying: Bach - English Suite No. 5; Chopin Scherzo No. 2; Alkan Cello Sonata 4th movement (duet transcription by Alkan)

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#2262634 - 04/16/14 02:54 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: MarkH]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Atrys, you need to realize when your advice is simply stupid and when your advice is dangerous.

Svenno has already refuted your silly claim. You really don't have much to offer the OP (per the usual). Your advice is rarely relevant and is usually ill-informed as well as plainly untrue. *yawn*

Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I would say it's probably the muscles in his hand around the first knuckle, because there are muscles there

I agree that it may be possible that OP is fatiguing his interossei muscles, but the probability is low considering his level of experience.

Originally Posted By: MarkH
Keep that in mind any time a person gives you health advice over the internet with certainty.

Absolutely. Despite what us strangers can offer you (OP), it's no replacement for seeking professional help.


Edited by Atrys (04/16/14 02:55 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262670 - 04/16/14 04:05 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7643
Loc: New York City
I can feel another Atrys flame war coming on.
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Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2262674 - 04/16/14 04:15 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Polyphonist]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I can feel another Atrys flame war coming on.

Your limbic system must be dysfunctional thumb
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262687 - 04/16/14 04:47 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5259
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Atrys, you need to realize when your advice is simply stupid and when your advice is dangerous.

Svenno has already refuted your silly claim. You really don't have much to offer the OP (per the usual). Your advice is rarely relevant and is usually ill-informed as well as plainly untrue. *yawn*


Atrys, yet again, you tried to backtrack slightly (no doubt after Googling), but just not enough to admit you've offered stupid advice.....for the nth time.

Next time, just admit you've been stupid, OK? Or else shut up before you dig any deeper into your hole.

You're a danger to people.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262688 - 04/16/14 04:54 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: bennevis]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Atrys, yet again, you tried to backtrack slightly (no doubt after Googling), but just not enough to admit you've offered stupid advice.....for the nth time.

Next time, just admit you've been stupid, OK? Or else shut up before you dig any deeper into your hole.

You're a danger to people.

Haha, you sound hilariously mad. It's okay to be mad, just try not to let it affect the advice you try to give people. It really shows.

Better yet, you may just want to study up on the material before you spew nonsense as usual.

Don't get so mad kiddo wink


Edited by Atrys (04/16/14 04:55 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262691 - 04/16/14 05:08 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Svenno]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5259
Originally Posted By: Svenno
Bennevis, in order for someone to experience severe or possibly even lethal hyponatremia due to excess water intake, one would have to drink vast amounts of water, and doing so by accident is very, very rare. A lethal amount of water per day for a fully grown person, is about 10-15 litres. Drinking more than 4 litres of water per hour is definitely lethal, but drinking so much occurs only during stupid acts such as water drinking contests.

I don't like to point out anything as obvious as this, but excessive drinking of fluids occur very easily in some sporting activities, when people mistake fatigue for dehydration. It makes no difference whether the fluid is water or a sports drink like Powerade/Gatorade: the amount of sodium in the latter is minimal.

A case in point is in marathons. No doubt you'll be able to find out for yourself how the guidelines for runners have changed in the past decade, following a spate of deaths. I've personally seen runners collapsing from it, while participating as a runner.

Short-term dehydration (as occurs with all fast marathoners) doesn't kill; hyponatremia can, and does. I've never heard of water-drinking contests, but I'm sure they exist grin; however, some obsessive people can easily drink copious amounts of liquids to excess (especially when advised by so-called 'experts') and don't realize how dangerous it is.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262692 - 04/16/14 05:13 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
That wasn't a refutation at all. Svenno's point stands, yours does not. OP ought to drink plenty of water (as we all should).

Yet again, just more nonsense.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262694 - 04/16/14 05:15 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5259
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Atrys, yet again, you tried to backtrack slightly (no doubt after Googling), but just not enough to admit you've offered stupid advice.....for the nth time.

Next time, just admit you've been stupid, OK? Or else shut up before you dig any deeper into your hole.

You're a danger to people.

Haha, you sound hilariously mad. It's okay to be mad, just try not to let it affect the advice you try to give people. It really shows.

Better yet, you may just want to study up on the material before you spew nonsense as usual.

Don't get so mad kiddo wink

Atrys, you need go get some life experience, before you do more damage. Like seeing someone who's collapsed with hyponatraemia, and the frantic efforts of the medics to save him.

I'm normally quite light-hearted in internet forums, and don't take some people's posts too seriously (especially some of your frankly laughable ones, which are good for a chuckle grin), but I DON'T joke when to comes to life and death.

Do you get it now?
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262697 - 04/16/14 05:23 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: bennevis]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Do you get it now?

There's nothing to get smile Your posts are often filled with words, but no substance.

It's obvious you're still mad, but that's okay.

You also seem to be upset with knowledge and often resort to a "Google" argument which is a fallacy on its own. If one studies well enough in school, one learns material.

Anyways, your petty rage-filled posts are hilarious! Even more so when they're coupled with misinformation and irrelevance. Luckily there are some of us here to "fight the good fight".
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262703 - 04/16/14 05:40 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5259
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Even more so when they're coupled with misinformation and irrelevance. Luckily there are some of us here to "fight the good fight".

So, you're hoping to dig yourself out with a bit of levity now? grin

What was it that Arnie said: "Levity is good. It relieves tension and the fear of death".

He always did have the best lines.

But for you, I suggest more education. In the context of this thread, in biochemistry and medicine (- no, I'm not suggesting that you study to be a doctor, as that's obviously way beyond your capabilities). Maybe in a few years' time, with more maturity under your belt, you'll start to appreciate the difference between crass stupidity and the potentially dangerous when giving misinformation, of which you are evidently a master, judging from your posts.



_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262708 - 04/16/14 05:51 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
@bennevis
You never really have a point in your posts; it's just "words, words, words" fueled by obvious frustration (even here, still).

You consistently resort to attacking the person instead of their proposition, another fallacy.

Your advice should never be taken seriously. Brothers and sisters, this is a man who truly believes that "strong fingers" are important for piano play. Your lack of education (or otherwise misunderstanding of many things) does not warrant sound advice. I'm happy to say that what you spew is typically so outrageous that a thinking person would not heed you.

I expect more unwarranted rage and nonsense from you, it speaks volumes about your ability to engage in discourse wink
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262717 - 04/16/14 06:11 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
@bennevis
You never really have a point in your posts; it's just "words, words, words" fueled by obvious frustration (even here, still).


The pot calling the kettle black? (No, you probably haven't heard that before either, like so much else).

You're an orator now, speaking out to the masses to try to get them on your side, still trying to justify your existence on this forum? grin

If I may be so bold, try Shakespeare's immortal opening words for Mark Antony: "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears!" (It helps to have the Bard on your side too wink ).

Actually, I don't know why I'm now also giving you an education in English literature, as well as in biochemistry and in medicine. It's probably because of my altruistic and generous nature......... grin
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"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262719 - 04/16/14 06:20 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
FSO Offline
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Atrys...I before thought you were proud and perhaps a little narrow-minded, but I now worry that you're perhaps cruel or, at the least, too obnoxious to understand how cruel you may be being. I mean, um, you have *no* idea what the OP's life is like; s/he may have hypochondria and, yes, some people *do* overreact to medical advice to the extent that they cause themselves grave harm. Having been witness to such fatal emergencies first hand, I can assure you that they're very real concerns. I don't mean to patronise you, but, um, I see frequently the notions "as a nation, we need to eat less", "the average person in this country consumes more than 300 calories per day than they need to"...sure, as general rules, they work out. But to anorexics everywhere this is anathema to health, it is the *worst* kind of social pressure; one backed by poor wording, ignorance and good intent. *Sigh* I've not yet seen you concede a point on this site, at least not one in anything other than retort. Um...at least...I won't tell you how to live your life; you're clearly quite a contentious person and I'm sure that's worked out very well for you. And here I find it important to note that I assume the OP is perfectly rational and capable enough of sifting through ideas that don't apply...but...not everyone can, dear. So when I say "at least" I don't expect much more, but *at least* consider the fact that you *could* be wrong; person A believes B, person C believes D. Which one is right? The one that shouts the loudest? Something to consider...I hope wink Um...I wish you well...if you read this, of course wink Assuming you have....well, I'd expect you to treat this with the bravado you treat everything. But I sincerely hope that underneath that bravado is at least small shred of doubt or concern. Um...you're not perfect. I'm not perfect. Bach wasn't perfect and nor was Gould; we all have ways in which we can improve. It's a sign of maturity, I believe, to recognise what we're incapable of and to admit fault. It's only in recognising our flaws that we discover the room to flourish. As for the OP, who clearly stated in the initial post that s/he had *already* seeked qualified, medical counsel, if a proper doctor who has access to your actual hands, who specialises in problems such as these and makes their living from this, well, um, what hope do we have? wink Seriously though, all you need to consider is all the things (and yes, *all* the things; nutrition, *stress* {which has some of the widest and bizarre range of symptoms of any condition thus-far discovered}, other psychological problems, neurological problems, technique related problems, emotional disturbances you name it laugh ) that your doctor wouldn't have...then try and see which one makes the most sense to you and, if possible, find a specialist in that field. Um...of course, it's not *every* problem, it's likely one small, correctable problem and I would try not to worry. Of course, trying to relax is a paradox, but trying not to worry is quite possible. It'll just take a bit of work before you get there is all; don't lose faith wink For my two internet-pence worth (exchange-rate uncertain), I'd venture that it's interesting you've not stated fatigue with respect to anything other than piano. I mean, um, I might be jumping the gun and you may have simply been trying to be concise...but does it affect other aspects of your life? Have you tried sewing, or extended origami sessions? It may sound strange, of course laugh But it may give you a better idea of exactly *where*, when and why the fatigue occurs. Sometimes our bodies don't mind us doing what we think our bodies don't like; it's merely our perception of things that has to change. I can't guarantee this is the case for you, of course, that would be ridiculous...but I'd consider it. At the least, a fresh view on the world can be nice from time to time, even if it doesn't help anything... frown ? laugh I hope your problem resolves itself in a nice way...I have no doubt that it *will* be resolved though. Best of luck! <3
Xxxx
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#2262723 - 04/16/14 06:28 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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@bennevis
At least you're trying to hold back your rage this time wink I'll give you that much.

Yet, still, you have no proposition, you do not attack a proposition, and you commit yourself to fallacy. Your posts are literally meaningless, so I suppose there's nothing for me to say on that point wink

The least I can do here is to make others aware that you do not offer sound advice, as it is unfounded. You can PM me if you'd like some recommendations on material for you to study so that you can begin offering actual advice to those who seek it. Until you take it upon yourself to correct your understanding, your posts are meaningless.

@FSO
I'm not reading that giant wall of unorganized, inconsiderate text. I'm actually hoping that one day you start taking the reader into account; I'm sure there is something to be drawn from your...rants...if you were to just structure them like a thinking person.


Edited by Atrys (04/16/14 06:29 PM)
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#2262724 - 04/16/14 06:33 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Old Man Offline
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adanepst, I believe bennevis's advice is sound. I've talked to more than one doctor about the current fad of drinking copious amounts of water all day, and they say it's unnecessary, and could be outright dangerous if the person is elderly, and has certain heart and/or kidney conditions. The biggest beneficiary of constant water drinking is the bottled water industry.

They also gave me exactly the same advice that bennevis did: Drink when you're thirsty, or if your urine appears darker than normal. And when you drink, make sure the fluid does not contain alcohol or caffeine, since these have a diuretic effect.

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#2262726 - 04/16/14 06:37 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
hreichgott Offline
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Hello Adanepst, sorry you're having this problem.

I often experience tension as either fatigue or "difficulty", as in I have difficulty getting to notes, the reason being that the muscles are working against one another and making it hard to move. Relaxing helps. So do incredibly simple exercises like Pischna #1 (played VERY Lento) or the early pieces in Czerny Op. 139 or even just a slow scale, with attention to total relaxation in the non-playing fingers.

I have no idea if your problem is similar at all, but playing simple things slowly with very thoughtful attention to relaxation is always useful.

Since you identified your problem as beginning with those Brahms exercises, I would throw them away, not because they're bad (they're not bad) but because they were linked to the development of a problem and it's usually easier to start fresh with other exercises than to relearn old exercises with new technique.
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#2262727 - 04/16/14 06:38 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
FSO Offline
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Atrys darling...better to be considered an idiot and stutter an incomprehensible truth in company, than to hold one's self so high that there are none to hear their well-versed lie. Um...I've stated before why I type as I type. Believe it or not, it *has* come up. I take the reader into account and will always apologise for any difficulty they may encounter in reading my words; will you make the same sacrifice?
Xxx
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#2262728 - 04/16/14 06:38 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
@FSO
I'm not reading that giant wall of unorganized, inconsiderate text. ... I'm sure there is something to be drawn from your...rants...
There certainly is! I picked a bit out for you so that you didn't have to read the whole page:
Originally Posted By: FSO
*at least* consider the fact that you *could* be wrong
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#2262729 - 04/16/14 06:39 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Old Man]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Old Man
Drink when you're thirsty

This is incomplete. If one is feeling thirsty, it's already too late. The whole point is to avoid the feeling of thirst. It follows that one should be drinking water regularly to keep fluid levels up.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262731 - 04/16/14 06:45 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: FSO]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: FSO
Atrys darling...

2hearts

Originally Posted By: FSO

better to be considered an idiot and stutter an incomprehensible truth in company, than to hold one's self so high that there are none to hear their well-versed lie.

This assertion is based on false assumptions. It's effectively a null statement.

Originally Posted By: FSO

I take the reader into account

No, you do not. You may think you do, but you really do not act upon this. You consistently post walls of shear rants without any consideration for the reader that is acted upon. It's really a shame, since others have claimed you have "seminar" caliber thoughts, which is a ridiculous claim to make on behalf of someone that does not even organize written language.
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"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262732 - 04/16/14 06:45 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Old Man Offline
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Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Drink when you're thirsty

This is incomplete. If one is feeling thirsty, it's already too late. The whole point is to avoid the feeling of thirst. It follows that one should be drinking water regularly to keep fluid levels up.

Wrong. The purpose of the thirst mechanism is to signal that water is needed. If the goal is to never feel thirsty, then we should all run around with IV lines attached to bags of D5W, so we never have to worry about hydration.

Also, I don't understand what you mean "too late". Too late for what? Am I about to die? Don't think so. I simply need a glass of water.

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#2262733 - 04/16/14 06:48 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Old Man]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Old Man

Wrong. The purpose of the thirst mechanism is to signal that water is needed.

Exactly! You've contradicted yourself, Old Man. The logic is simple, I'm sure you can find the line and follow it if you try.

Originally Posted By: Old Man

If the goal is to never feel thirsty, then we should all run around with IV lines attached to bags of D5W, so we never have to worry about hydration.

What a ridiculous thing to say. That's clearly not true.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262734 - 04/16/14 06:48 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Atrys

Yet, still, you have no proposition, you do not attack a proposition, and you commit yourself to fallacy. Your posts are literally meaningless, so I suppose there's nothing for me to say on that point wink

The least I can do here is to make others aware that you do not offer sound advice, as it is unfounded. You can PM me if you'd like some recommendations on material for you to study so that you can begin offering actual advice to those who seek it. Until you take it upon yourself to correct your understanding, your posts are meaningless.


Wow, you really are a hopeless case.

You really have no insight, or even self-awareness. Like an infant, in fact. (Children have no real self-awareness until they are about 18 months old - another medical fact for your delectation, in case you're interested).

BTW, how many piano teachers have you got rid of now (or, more likely, they got rid of you grin), since your first post here where you blithely told us that your teacher was 'learning' from you?

Do you seriously think that anyone here has anything to learn from you? Or are you really so self-deluded, with your massive ego?
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262736 - 04/16/14 06:53 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: bennevis]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: bennevis

Wow, you really are a hopeless case.

You really have no insight, or even self-awareness. Like an infant, in fact. (Children have no real self-awareness until they are about 18 months old - another medical fact for your delectation, in case you're interested).

BTW, how many piano teachers have you got rid of now (or, more likely, they got rid of you grin), since your first post here where you blithely told us that your teacher was 'learning' from you?

Do you seriously think that anyone here has anything to learn from you? Or are you really so self-deluded, with your massive ego?

The rage is back laugh

You do not make any propositions, you do not attack any propositions, and commit yourself to fallacy by attacking the person. This method of discourse must be deeply ingrained in your psyche if you can't even realize you're doing it. Try to avoid getting so emotional kiddo! You are not strong in logic, but that doesn't mean you have to get all worked up over it.

I would suggest studying up on propositional logic and discreet mathematics topics (set theory is always helpful). You have some serious logical gaps, mate.


Edited by Atrys (04/16/14 06:54 PM)
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"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262737 - 04/16/14 06:55 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: bennevis]
TimV Offline
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Registered: 09/21/11
Posts: 70
Loc: New York, NY
Originally Posted By: bennevis
You're a danger to people.


Have you really read and thought about what you're saying? I don't know how hard any of you all practice, but hyponatremia is usually the result of extreme physical activity (e.g. marathons) coupled with drinking way too much water--leaving the victim with a dangerous electrolyte imbalance. I don't believe anyone suggested the OP should drink 4 liters of water per hour, which is the level of water we're talking about. (Svenno also said this above... apparently we googled the same page)

To adanepst (the OP): how much are you practicing per day? I apologize if you already said this somewhere. I knew someone once who was practicing/rehearsing/performing about 8-10 hours per day and he described a similar feeling. He was a full-time professional pianist in his 40s at the time, so it's not like he was an undergrad cramming for juries. It was a short-term situation, and after about 4 weeks he was able to cut back to a more civilized piano regimen of ~4 hours a day. He felt fine after that, but I think it was also a wake-up call for him.

Is it possible you're simply practicing too much? Maybe you need to examine how efficiently you're working. Some people just can't do 8 hour days at the piano on a consistent basis and not suffer from it. Unless you're a REALLY vigorous practicer, I'd be surprised if your fatigue is the result of dehydration or electrolyte imbalance.
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#2262739 - 04/16/14 07:00 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
FSO Offline
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Loc: UK, Brighton
Originally Posted By: Atrys
...on behalf of someone that does not even organize written language....You do not make any propositions, you do not attack any propositions, and commit yourself to fallacy by attacking the person....
They said the same of Joyce and Bernhard wink And for your burgeoning education, it's called poetry, dear; one day you may recognise the value in it and I hope you shall, for you'll be all the richer for the experience...I'll leave your own words to stir themselves. Currawong...I feel I have to say that I'm genuinely touched that you read one of my "shear rants" (they're very wooly). I know you struggle with my formatting more than most, I'd wager. Um...it really means a lot to know that, sure, you won't read everything that I plop out...but that you may still try yet means more to me than society permits me to express smile You have class, I'll grant you that much.
Xxx
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#2262740 - 04/16/14 07:04 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Drink when you're thirsty

This is incomplete. If one is feeling thirsty, it's already too late. The whole point is to avoid the feeling of thirst. It follows that one should be drinking water regularly to keep fluid levels up.

Old Man has got it right.

Atrys, you've Googled the wrong website (belonging to a bottled water company, probably) - for the umpteenth time.

Or else you're about twenty years behind the times, when such 'advice' (especially in lifestyle magazines) was all the rage. BTW, the corollary, that one should be snacking regularly to keep blood glucose levels up, has contributed to the current obesity and Type 2 diabetes epidermic.

More medical facts for your continuing education. grin
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262741 - 04/16/14 07:09 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Polyphonist Offline
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And Atrys is the one who goes around accusing people of having superiority complexes. grin
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#2262744 - 04/16/14 07:10 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: bennevis]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: bennevis

Atrys, you've Googled the wrong website (belonging to a bottled water company, probably) - for the umpteenth time.

Or else you're about twenty years behind the times, when such 'advice' (especially in lifestyle magazines) was all the rage. BTW, the corollary, that one should be snacking regularly to keep blood glucose levels, has contributed to the current obesity epidermic.

More medical facts for your continuing education. grin

More logical fallacies, yay! Is it a hobby of yours to practice these fallacies? It certainly seems so. You are really, truly, not skilled at discourse or assertions. This fact says so much about how you think (protip: it's not coherent).

You know, it's never too late to back to university and take courses on logic (even health sciences!). It's good for the brain. Actually, you can even access the material on the internet, you just won't be assessed on it so it's difficult to enforce an understanding (which you've nicely demonstrated for us with your spreading of misinformation smile ).
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262745 - 04/16/14 07:10 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: TimV]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: TimV
Originally Posted By: bennevis
You're a danger to people.


Have you really read and thought about what you're saying? I don't know how hard any of you all practice, but hyponatremia is usually the result of extreme physical activity (e.g. marathons) coupled with drinking way too much water--leaving the victim with a dangerous electrolyte imbalance.

TimV, have you actually read all my posts here?

You've missed something, which FSO has also pointed out.

BTW, I didn't Google prior to posting, unlike you and Svenno. I know of what I write.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262750 - 04/16/14 07:15 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: bennevis]
Atrys Offline
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Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I know of what I write.

Haha! Clearly not. Spreading misinformation is not "knowing". You've gone far past the line of absurdity laugh


Edited by Atrys (04/16/14 07:15 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262751 - 04/16/14 07:17 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I can feel another Atrys flame war coming on.

Your limbic system must be dysfunctional thumb

Now that I have been shown to be quite correct in my prediction, perhaps we can consider the possibility that I'm not the one with the dysfunctional limbic system.
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#2262752 - 04/16/14 07:17 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Atrys, you've Googled the wrong website (belonging to a bottled water company, probably) - for the umpteenth time.

Or else you're about twenty years behind the times, when such 'advice' (especially in lifestyle magazines) was all the rage. BTW, the corollary, that one should be snacking regularly to keep blood glucose levels, has contributed to the current obesity epidermic.

More medical facts for your continuing education. grin

More logical fallacies, yay! Is it a hobby of yours to practice these fallacies? It certainly seems so. You are really, truly, not skilled at discourse or assertions. This fact says so much about how you think (protip: it's not coherent).

You know, it's never too late to back to university and take courses on logic (even health sciences!). It's good for the brain. Actually, you can even access the material on the internet, you just won't be assessed on it so it's difficult to enforce an understanding (which you've nicely demonstrated for us with your spreading of misinformation smile ).


You remind me now of a movie where the hero (or fall guy, I can't remember which), believes that if he keeps repeating something often enough, it will miraculously become true.

You're beginning to sound like a parrot grin.

Try a more intelligent creature instead, like a dolphin. (They squeak wink ).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262754 - 04/16/14 07:21 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: FSO]
currawong Offline
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Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: FSO
Currawong...I feel I have to say that I'm genuinely touched that you read one of my "shear rants" (they're very wooly). I know you struggle with my formatting more than most, I'd wager. Um...it really means a lot to know that, sure, you won't read everything that I plop out...but that you may still try yet means more to me than society permits me to express smile You have class, I'll grant you that much.
Xxx
Ta, love. smile I've worked out a few strategies for coping - I won't tell Atrys what they are, lest he read your posts and find out what you think of him! laugh
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Du holde Kunst...

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#2262755 - 04/16/14 07:22 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
@bennevis
More fallacies! You are effectively saying nothing ha

You are clearly not thinking before you write your posts. A thinking person cannot commit themselves to fallacy in the way that you do. Maybe it's just your lack of understanding of material that's causing some cognitive dissonance.

I'll remind you that you actually believe "strong fingers" are important. This speaks for itself; you are not a thinking person.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262758 - 04/16/14 07:24 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Polyphonist]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Now that I have been shown to be quite correct in my prediction

Poly, dear boy, this was a bennevis flame war. He is the only one acting out of frustration and rage instead of remaining civil and objective in the discourse.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2262759 - 04/16/14 07:39 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
bennevis Online   content
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Atrys, I understand your frustration, I really do wink .

To be out-manoeuvred at every turn by several people - yes, it's hard to bear, for someone with your gigantic ego. "It's monumental!" (as David Helfgott's piano professor said of Rach 3 in the movie 'Shine' - there, I'm educating you yet again thumb).

So, for your ego's sake, I concede defeat. You can have the last word.

It's bedtime here, but you can go on with your flame war against Poly, FSO, Old Man et al. I might catch up on proceedings in the morning.......
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2262765 - 04/16/14 07:50 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Posts: 990
@bennevis
You've done it yet again! I could have foretold that wink

Your approach to civil argument is like that of a pre-pubescent boy: naive and not understanding. You get really emotional too, which says a lot.

Next time you try and offer advice to those who seek it, it helps to actually know what you're talking about (and how to formulate that into a proposition for advice). You failed to do so. Like I said, I'm glad that the things you assert are so off the mark that a thinking person would never take you seriously.

If OP is still with us, be aware that bennevis does not operate according to reason, but instead according to his own, deranged perception of understanding.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
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#2262769 - 04/16/14 07:54 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Vid Offline
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The lady doth protests too much, methinks.
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#2262775 - 04/16/14 08:12 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Now that I have been shown to be quite correct in my prediction

Poly, dear boy, (...)

If it weren't for this kind of attitude, I think more of us would put up with you.

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#2262788 - 04/16/14 08:40 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
If OP is still with us...

Oh, I'm sure he's still with us, but I doubt he's with you. grin
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#2262837 - 04/17/14 12:07 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
phantomFive Offline
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Originally Posted By: adanepst
Hello all,

and thanks again for your ideas and suggestions.

bennevis and atrys - I appreciate each of your ideas; even if they might seem to contradict each other, for me this is not a problem. I think truth is very big and inclusive, permits seeming oppositions, and includes them! So all ideas are welcome.

bennevis: I am interested to learn of DOMS for the first time. I just did some reading about this on the internet. Usually "soreness" is spoken of, but sometimes also of "stiffness." I don't have soreness, but this still might be the same, or a related, phenomenon.

phantomFive: the feeling of fatigue is generalized; I simply notice that the whole mechanism is tired and that my dexterity is greatly reduced, I can't play things I can usually play, or not as well.

I'm looking forward to looking into all the suggestions that have been offered here. Thanks again.


Cool, good luck! Let us know if anything works!
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#2262876 - 04/17/14 02:01 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
adanepst Offline
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Registered: 04/15/14
Posts: 6
Atrys and bennevis: I would recommend and request that the two of you begin another thread in order to continue your discussion, because my goal in starting this one is to find help, and the tone of your discussion may discourage other users from entering the thread. Would you agree to this?

Thanks in advance.

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#2263338 - 04/18/14 03:37 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
bunno Offline
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Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 2
Hi OP, from your posting I think you said that you have seen a neuro? Have you been to see a rheumatologist? I have haven't seen a neuro but I do/have seen a rheumatologist. I do suffer from weekness in my fingers also, accompanied by arm pain. I was told for years that I had tendonitis but have recently been told that my overall diagnosis is fibromyalgia, since I have neck pain and other reactive to touch pain points.

The more I practice the weaker I feel. I have been to see a hand physio who works with musicians and she has got me into the swimming pool to try hydrotherapy. My grip strength is abysmal, and I need to work to get a stronger reading.

I am hoping that things will improve, as I do love playing. My life doesn't depend on it. I guess everyone here on this forum can only offer their own experience and opinions. It does make up for a proper diagnoses. Maybe book into a rheumy and see if they can refer/help?

Good luck, hope you get to see my post in the midst of the great water drinking debate!

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#2263424 - 04/18/14 09:21 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Shabbat Shalom Offline
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Loc: USA
Hi OP,

I just want to offer a possible non-medical idea (I'm sincerely hoping you're problem is not as severe as being dehydrated or having a disease, but I'm not a doctor):

My thought is that if a muscle gets tired, it's being worked hard. Piano playing should not involve hard work (I used to get tired sometimes. This never had anything to do with drinking, disease, weather, etc. but always with effort used to play the notes). Ideally, the effort used to play should be sustainable for hours on end without the use of endurance exercises. But how? Well, for me, I was caught up in arm weight use and interpreted it to mean that one must transfer the whole weight of the arm from key to key. Bad idea! This overloads the fingers, causing them to tire quickly. However, gravity can be used to our advantage! Our fingers have weight, our palms have weight, and our arms have weight. The key is to properly manage each weight to make ech not sound without effort (now don't get mechanical a la Taubman on me). Once you can feel the weight in each part of the hand, play the note NOT thinking about the bottom of the key, but only where the sound starts. Let your hearing anticipate each note rather than focusing on the physical act. Once the note is played, very little weight is needed to keep the note sounding. Find that minimal weight. Practically, the most effective way to acheive all this at the beginning is to aim for a mezzo piano, but beautiful, sound. Focus any weight in the fingertip, where tension is a good thing, and try to let everything else be light.

This is just on guy's idea. I hope it helps, as it did for me. If not, I'm sorry I couldn't help more. Good luck!
_________________________
"Whoever is moved by music to the depths of the soul, and works on the instrument like possessed one, who loves music and his instrument with passion – will acquire virtuoso technique; he/she will be able to recreate the artistic image of the composition; he/she will be a performer." - Neuhaus

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#2263477 - 04/18/14 11:22 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
TwoSnowflakes Online   blank
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Shabbat Shalom:

Interesting way to think about it, and a good shabbos to you, too.

I've run myself through the gamut this year, experimenting with just about everything, and also despairing when I lapse back into whatever it was I WAS doing if I don't pay complete attention.

But the first thing that really worked was recognizing that arm weight and drop was a huge thing I was not using AT ALL, and deliberately set about working it in. But at one point I was thinking, "good lord, my entire fingertip needs to be holding up however many pounds my arm is?" That didn't seem right, either.

Now, to be fair, I've not figured it out, but at slower tempos I now have a nice easy movement and it's somewhere in between fully weighted and suspended. Now I have to keep that and not seize up when the tempo goes up, and also make better use of lateral movements to get behind my playing.

I had better fix it soon, because after long practice sessions, I get some pretty bad pain running along the thumb and into the wrist. I had to take a day off last week and Mama No Fun when she can't play piano, the kids are figuring out.
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#2263488 - 04/18/14 11:46 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
Shabbat Shalom Offline
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I had a similar issue regarding weight in the fingertips. Two ideas that helped me: 1. Weight managment rather than full weight use all the time. Most of the time we don't need half the weight in our arms to acheive the appropriate sound. A great analogy I heard is that of a dart. It goes to its target and all energy is released into its target (in our case, I believe the target should be thought of as the beginning of the sound rather than the bottom of the keyboard). 2. If our energy is focused not down but rather in the direction the sound is going, left or right, it gets that lateral motion (fingers activating the arm) involved. The key, again, is to hear each sound having a tendency to go to the next, keeping our ears fully involved the whole time.

After years of being taught how to move and anatomical ideas of piano playing with little musical improvement, the idea that one's ears guide the technique has opened up worlds of possibilities to me. The only real tiring effort in piano playing should be in the head/hearing.
_________________________
"Whoever is moved by music to the depths of the soul, and works on the instrument like possessed one, who loves music and his instrument with passion – will acquire virtuoso technique; he/she will be able to recreate the artistic image of the composition; he/she will be a performer." - Neuhaus

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#2263606 - 04/18/14 03:32 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Shabbat Shalom]
JohnSprung Offline
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Originally Posted By: Shabbat Shalom
(in our case, I believe the target should be thought of as the beginning of the sound rather than the bottom of the keyboard.


Yes, absolutely right. Once the jack trips out from under the knuckle, the hammer flys on inertia. Any further energy you put into the key going down does nothing but make you tired.
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#2263637 - 04/18/14 04:11 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
TwoSnowflakes Online   blank
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This makes a lot of sense to me, and I'd already understood the general idea--I mean it's not a hard leap to figure out that after you've depressed the key there's no pressure necessary beyond preventing it from rising back up if you need it to stay down and there's almost nothing to that, but that doesn't mean I've been successful in putting that idea into any kind of practical use.

I'm glad to have at least passed the primary hurdle in that I've started to make better use of gravity and weight and have that contribute all it can before I start expending energy using anything else. It doesn't always work and I still seize up, especially as the tempo comes up, but it's better than it used to be. If I make myself just think "weight, weight" I can feel the muscles release and I don't feel like I'm playing through molasses. It's better than it was: even at slow tempos I used to just kind of suspend myself over the keyboard and make everything just come from finger action which is a highly tensed way to play just from the outset and results in some pretty poor sound control. But now I can be relaxed and fluid in increasing numbers of situations.

Still, like I said, it's hard to marshal everything together. The basic movement is so relaxed and natural when it's there, but yet so difficult to maintain.

I envy my daughter, who is learning from the get-go really efficient movement. Her teacher isn't doing what I see a lot of teachers doing (and what her first teacher did--we moved her after her first year when I started playing to the same teacher I chose for myself), which is to just get basic note playing coordination in there in lots of easy pieces before working on touch and movement, but working on arm, wrist, and body movement has been in there from the first day she was asked to play more than one note. She already has a fluidity that I'm jealous of just playing Bach's Minuet in G.

To be honest, I'm actually learning a certain amount simply being in the other room during my daughter's lessons and listening to the things she says to children to build good movement from the beginning. I'd love to be IN the room, haha, but I know how much my daughter would haaaaaate that. Fortunately our teacher does not know how to speak in a voice lower than "mid-shout" so she's not difficult to hear from several rooms away. smile


Edited by TwoSnowflakes (04/18/14 04:13 PM)
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#2263769 - 04/18/14 08:09 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
phantomFive Offline
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Originally Posted By: TwoSnowflakes

I had better fix it soon, because after long practice sessions, I get some pretty bad pain running along the thumb and into the wrist.

Can you be more specific about where exactly it is hurting? If you can figure out which muscle it is, sometimes finding the cure is easy.
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#2263793 - 04/18/14 08:50 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
hreichgott Offline
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I do use all the weight of my arm on the keys. It isn't strenuous, at least, it isn't strenuous as long as my finger isn't tensed-up in addition to what's needed to hold up my arm.
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#2263795 - 04/18/14 08:53 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
TwoSnowflakes Online   blank
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Originally Posted By: phantomFive

Can you be more specific about where exactly it is hurting? If you can figure out which muscle it is, sometimes finding the cure is easy.

Um, if you spread your hand out, strongly, there's a dull ache that kind of radiates along the top of the thumb. It gets bad as I do octaves, if the other fingers have to be pulled up and the thumb down, so when I pull my hand back, my other hand wants to massage right there at the base.

Ok, probably easier just to take a picture.

Voila:

_________________________
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With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

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#2263804 - 04/18/14 09:03 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: hreichgott]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: hreichgott
I do use all the weight of my arm on the keys.

You most certainly don't. This is a misperception caused by the teachings of the "arm weight school".

What you're actually perceiving is the sensation of maximally relaxed forearm extensors and flexors as the upper arm "hangs" from the shoulder in conjunction with coordinated movements such that a portion of the weight of your arm is used to transfer energy into the key.

Anyone taught under the "arm weight school" ought to be aware of this; just a small FYI.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2263891 - 04/19/14 01:05 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
phantomFive Offline
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Originally Posted By: TwoSnowflakes
Originally Posted By: phantomFive

Can you be more specific about where exactly it is hurting? If you can figure out which muscle it is, sometimes finding the cure is easy.

Um, if you spread your hand out, strongly, there's a dull ache that kind of radiates along the top of the thumb. It gets bad as I do octaves, if the other fingers have to be pulled up and the thumb down, so when I pull my hand back, my other hand wants to massage right there at the base.

Ok, probably easier just to take a picture.

Voila:



oh, that is good.

If you imagine the skeleton of your hand, can you see how the thumb bones have a joint near the base of the wrist?

Can you check to see, if while playing octaves, you are trying to hold that joint at the base of your thumb too stiffly? It should be relaxed and free.
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#2269290 - 04/30/14 09:09 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Fiona0424 Offline
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Registered: 04/29/14
Posts: 217
I have the same problem in Appassionata. I can play the 1st, 2nd and half of the 3 movement fine - but when I get to the very end, that coda is a killer! I am so tired, like the same athlete-tired you were talking about! The chords seem to exhaust my hands and by the time I get to the fast notes run upward, I just lose it. I don't know if this is a technique problem or what. I have been studying with a reputable professor who tells me that my technique is very good, so I am worried that it may just be muscle exhaustion. I am also a young pianist like you (18 yrs old) and am starting my studies in August. So maybe playing the entire Appassionata is just too much for me just like the Brahms practicing was too much for you. I don't know. But I hope you are getting better!
Best of luck!

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#2269300 - 04/30/14 09:39 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Fiona0424]
phantomFive Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fiona0424
I have the same problem in Appassionata. I can play the 1st, 2nd and half of the 3 movement fine - but when I get to the very end, that coda is a killer! I am so tired, like the same athlete-tired you were talking about! The chords seem to exhaust my hands and by the time I get to the fast notes run upward, I just lose it. I don't know if this is a technique problem or what.

Try relaxing your wrist more on the chords. You might be holding them fixed, and that will give you problems.
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#2269309 - 04/30/14 09:55 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Fiona0424]
jdw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fiona0424
I have the same problem in Appassionata. I can play the 1st, 2nd and half of the 3 movement fine - but when I get to the very end, that coda is a killer! I am so tired, like the same athlete-tired you were talking about! The chords seem to exhaust my hands and by the time I get to the fast notes run upward, I just lose it. I don't know if this is a technique problem or what. I have been studying with a reputable professor who tells me that my technique is very good, so I am worried that it may just be muscle exhaustion. I am also a young pianist like you (18 yrs old) and am starting my studies in August. So maybe playing the entire Appassionata is just too much for me just like the Brahms practicing was too much for you. I don't know. But I hope you are getting better!
Best of luck!


If I were you, I would consult an expert in ergonomic technique. Many fine and reputable pianists are not well versed in this specialized area of study. This is one reason why many players become injured.

I remember reading a comment from Ilya Itin, that before learning the Taubman approach he would feel tired after playing and thought fatigue was just part of the deal.
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#2269316 - 04/30/14 10:09 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
DanS Offline
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Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 558
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
I do use all the weight of my arm on the keys.

You most certainly don't. This is a misperception caused by the teachings of the "arm weight school".

What you're actually perceiving is the sensation of maximally relaxed forearm extensors and flexors as the upper arm "hangs" from the shoulder in conjunction with coordinated movements such that a portion of the weight of your arm is used to transfer energy into the key.

Anyone taught under the "arm weight school" ought to be aware of this; just a small FYI.


To anyone reading this, I just want to point out the following from Atrys's 1st post in order to put things into a clearer perspective;

Originally Posted By: Atrys
So I'm 20 years old and have been taking lessons for just the last 7 months at my university...there is no such thing as "playing with arm weight". This is simply a perception, not a reality...Those who believe otherwise simply do not understand the mechanics of the situation.
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#2269320 - 04/30/14 10:17 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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There is no contradiction between the two posts; the idea of "arm weight" as it applies to the successive playing of tones does not exist. It's simply used as a method of teaching, which is fine, but students ought to be aware that it is not actually true.
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R. W. Emerson

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#2269321 - 04/30/14 10:20 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
There is no contradiction between the two posts; the idea of "arm weight" as it applies to the successive playing of tones does not exist. It's simply used as a method of teaching, which is fine, but students ought to be aware that it is not actually true.
Why? If it produces the same result in students and allows them to play freely, they could call it fairies spinning on a plate and it would be fine. Don't ask me where that came from.

OK, I know I'll regret feeding the troll.
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#2269323 - 04/30/14 10:23 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene

OK, I know I'll regret feeding the troll.

You can operate under the false assumption that I'm "trolling", or we can have this discourse with civility.

Originally Posted By: Morodiene

Why? If it produces the same result in students and allows them to play freely, they could call it fairies spinning on a plate and it would be fine.

Because it's misinformation. It's perfectly fine to teach in this way, but at the same time students ought to be familiar with the physics of the situation so that pedagogy doesn't spin its wheels too much in this area.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269325 - 04/30/14 10:26 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Morodiene]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
OK, I know I'll regret feeding the troll.

Yes, you might. But many of us have already fallen into the trap, so feel free to join the club. ha
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#2269326 - 04/30/14 10:27 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

OK, I know I'll regret feeding the troll.

You can operate under the false assumption that I'm "trolling", or we can have this discourse with civility.
We shall see.

Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

Why? If it produces the same result in students and allows them to play freely, they could call it fairies spinning on a plate and it would be fine.

Because it's misinformation. It's perfectly fine to teach in this way, but at the same time students ought to be familiar with the physics of the situation so that pedagogy doesn't spin its wheels too much in this area.
I don't think it's misinformation if it works. We are in the art of sound, not the science of it. That's another field.
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#2269328 - 04/30/14 10:27 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Polyphonist]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
OK, I know I'll regret feeding the troll.

Yes, you might. But many of us have already fallen into the trap, so feel free to join the club. ha
LOL
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#2269330 - 04/30/14 10:32 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene

I don't think it's misinformation if it works.

Misinformation is information that is false or inaccurate. The assertion that one can play using arm-weight alone, or chiefly, is subject to the same true-or-false standards as any other assertion. It just so happens that this one is false, and it is therefore misinformation.

The ideas are not exclusive of each other. You can, at once, teach a student under the "arm-weight school" whilst remaining grounded in the physics of the situation.
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#2269332 - 04/30/14 10:33 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

OK, I know I'll regret feeding the troll.

You can operate under the false assumption that I'm "trolling", or we can have this discourse with civility.

That certainly leaves you out.

(There, I just fed the troll again. What's the matter with me?) grin
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#2269334 - 04/30/14 10:37 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Why don't you ever try to actually contribute to a discussion?
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R. W. Emerson

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#2269335 - 04/30/14 10:38 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Why don't you ever try to actually contribute to a discussion?

Life is full of mysteries...
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#2269337 - 04/30/14 10:39 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: DanS]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
there is no such thing as "playing with arm weight". This is simply a perception, not a reality...Those who believe otherwise simply do not understand the mechanics of the situation.

Wrong.

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#2269338 - 04/30/14 10:40 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Atrys
there is no such thing as "playing with arm weight". This is simply a perception, not a reality...Those who believe otherwise simply do not understand the mechanics of the situation.

Wrong.

The troll is being fed left and right - which post shall he respond to next? ha
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#2269339 - 04/30/14 10:41 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JoelW]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW

Wrong.

Can you offer reasoning or evidence to support your position? If not, you're the one who is wrong.
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#2269340 - 04/30/14 10:42 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
you're the one who is wrong.

Wrong.

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#2269341 - 04/30/14 10:43 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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@JoelW
If you cannot offer any reasoning or evidence to support your idea that "arm-weight" play is possible, then there is no reason to believe that it is. In fact, the evidence to that claim is exactly contrary.
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"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269343 - 04/30/14 10:44 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
@JoelW
If you cannot offer any reasoning or evidence to support your idea that "arm-weight" play is possible, then there is no reason to believe that it is. In fact, the evidence to that claim is exactly contrary.

Google it. It's out there and anyone can find if they wish to.
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#2269344 - 04/30/14 10:44 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
JoelW Offline
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Atrys,

What level pianist are you?

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#2269345 - 04/30/14 10:45 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Morodiene]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Atrys
@JoelW
If you cannot offer any reasoning or evidence to support your idea that "arm-weight" play is possible, then there is no reason to believe that it is. In fact, the evidence to that claim is exactly contrary.

Google it. It's out there and anyone can find if they wish to.

He's probably just Google-handicapped. grin

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#2269348 - 04/30/14 10:48 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene

Google it. It's out there and anyone can find if they wish to.

Indeed I have. I've also read books on the subject and have even had a teacher who professed this way of playing. To summarize the evidence, there simply is none. The idea is a misapprehension that is a product of "bias" sensation during play.

Anyone with a background in physics can easily identify the arm-weight teachings as largely false and unfounded, sorry to say.
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R. W. Emerson

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#2269350 - 04/30/14 10:51 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
JoelW Offline
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Atrys,

Please answer my question.

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#2269353 - 04/30/14 10:54 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Atrys


The ideas are not exclusive of each other. You can, at once, teach a student under the "arm-weight school" whilst remaining grounded in the physics of the situation.


That is my point exactly. The whole "arm weight" concept goes right along with what is actually happening, regardless of the non-scientific name.

I teach voice which is probably 90% technique to being with, and there are things I will tell them - imagery things- that while not scientific coincide with what is scientifically happening and they get the student to make the sound and feeling desired. If I told them they need to contract their Thyroarytenoid muscle they would look at be blankly and not know what to do. If I tell them make a "manly" sound and demonstrate, then they know exactly what I mean and can copy it easily.

The same goes for "arm weight". It means nothing without the demonstration and the sound to accompany it, but combine the demonstration and sound with the name and the student can then imitate. The name is not intended to be scientific, it is intended to describe the feeling in a way that makes it easier for the student to replicate later on and for the teacher to refer to in the future once the student understands the feeling that is associated with that name.

It seems rather pedantic to have to describe this.
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#2269357 - 04/30/14 11:01 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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@Morodiene
What I'm refuting are claims made by the arm-weight school. When someone makes an assertion, it doesn't matter what "context" it is made in, it is still either true or false. The assertion that one can play chiefly with the weight of the arm is a false assertion, regardless of its intent. That is what I'm getting at.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269360 - 04/30/14 11:03 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Polyphonist Offline
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I wonder what would happen if we just stopped feeding, everyone. Let's try it, as an experiment?
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#2269362 - 04/30/14 11:06 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
JoelW Offline
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Atrys,

I'm just going to assume that your lack of understanding is attributed to bad technique. I use arm weight all the time. It comes from your forearm. Try resting fingers 2 and 3 on a table, then relax your arm so that you feel weight transferring to your fingers. You will feel pressure against the table. Shift from fingers 2 to 3, as if doing a slow trill, to fully feel the effect. This is arm weight. We using this in piano playing all the time.

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#2269363 - 04/30/14 11:09 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JoelW]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW

I use arm weight all the time. It comes from your forearm. Try resting fingers 2 and 3 on a table, then relax your arm so that you feel weight transferring to your fingers. You will feel pressure against the table. This is arm weight. We using this in piano playing all the time.

Yes, I agree that we use it all the time, but not in the way that the "school" asserts, and also not nearly to the degree that they assert.

It is very obvious that some amount of weight from the arm is used during play, but this occurs in a manner that is not consistent with the "school's" teachings.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269366 - 04/30/14 11:12 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
JoelW Offline
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What are the schools teaching that conflicts with this?

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#2269367 - 04/30/14 11:15 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JoelW]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
What are the schools teaching that conflicts with this?

Above all else, that one can play, principally, with the weight of the fully relaxed arm.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269386 - 05/01/14 12:39 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Morodiene]
phantomFive Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Atrys
@JoelW
If you cannot offer any reasoning or evidence to support your idea that "arm-weight" play is possible, then there is no reason to believe that it is. In fact, the evidence to that claim is exactly contrary.

Google it. It's out there and anyone can find if they wish to.

lolololololol
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#2269391 - 05/01/14 12:47 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Derulux Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: JoelW
What are the schools teaching that conflicts with this?

Above all else, that one can play, principally, with the weight of the fully relaxed arm.

Before I decide to join this melee, what exactly is wrong with this statement?

(I am trying to clear your biases, and your understanding of the statement as different from mine, so that I can provide an intelligible response. I'm not one of the posters who jumps in just to say, "You're wrong. I know it. If you want to know why, look it up.")
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#2269395 - 05/01/14 12:59 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Derulux

Before I decide to join this melee, what exactly is wrong with this statement?

When in playing position, the biceps are used to keep the forearm level. Further, the biceps and other groups are then used to provide all forms of upward movement at the wrist. To actually relax one's arm for use during play is to require that the bicep is relaxed. If you relax your bicep, one of two things will happen: your arm falls to your side, or you "hold up" your arm with your fingers. The latter is what is relevant, but it's also absurd: one cannot move, even laterally, without using the bicep. When you use the bicep, you are then not applying your full "arm-weight" to the keys.

The entire hint here is that the fingers and required tension play a much larger role than what the arm-weight school claims.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269400 - 05/01/14 01:20 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Derulux Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Before I decide to join this melee, what exactly is wrong with this statement?

When in playing position, the biceps are used to keep the forearm level. Further, the biceps and other groups are then used to provide all forms of upward movement at the wrist. To actually relax one's arm for use during play is to require that the bicep is relaxed. If you relax your bicep, one of two things will happen: your arm falls to your side, or you "hold up" your arm with your fingers. The latter is what is relevant, but it's also absurd: one cannot move, even laterally, without using the bicep. When you use the bicep, you are then not applying your full "arm-weight" to the keys.

The entire hint here is that the fingers and required tension play a much larger role than what the arm-weight school claims.

In considering my response, please understand that I did graduate with a dual degree, one half of which was mechanical engineering. (That is why I wanted to clear biases, because wording can change meaning, and/or we might be talking about two completely different things. In this case, I think we would have been, so I'm glad we did that.)

I have never, ever heard a single approach to the piano say that you can't or shouldn't use your muscles appropriately. So, let's assume that, at some point, every approach to the piano eventually expects you to engage your muscles at certain critical moments in the course of playing.

If that is not agreed, let's stop and analyze this disagreement first, but I will proceed with the belief that we have, at least, that mutual understanding.

When you hold your hand above the piano, so that your fingers are necessarily above the keys, and you release the muscles that are holding up your arm, what happens? The lowest point on the hand (or finger, whichever is closer) hits one or more keys. If the force is great enough (and, even from a miniscule height, it is), this action will cause the hammer to strike the string. Thus, it is entirely possible to use the weight of the arm to produce sound.

Again, if you disagree with this, let's stop and analyze it before moving forward, but I will continue with the same understanding that this is mutually agreed.

Using a combination of these two principles -- properly applied muscular action, along with weight/gravity -- pianists produce specific sounds. This is actually the basis of the "arm weight" methodology. It is used primarily to counter the idea of artificially holding your arm above the keys (ie- "fixed" not "fluid"), and "brushing" with your fingers, or using stiff/forced movements to counter the arm's imbalance.
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#2269405 - 05/01/14 01:32 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Derulux

This is actually the basis of the "arm weight" methodology.

This is incorrect. There are assertions made by the "school", both in history (by authority, at that) and in contemporary pedagogy, that render your point completely invalid.

It's obvious that one can actuate a single set of n >= 1 keys by using a portion of your arm weight, this is undisputed. The problem arises when students are taught that the arm ought to be "fully relaxed" and that play comes as a function of the manipulation of weight distribution, when it really comes from a coordinated system that chiefly does not use arm weight, but instead uses momentum and appropriate flexion and extension by means of a balanced central nervous system (insofar as piano play is concerned).
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"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269425 - 05/01/14 03:13 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Derulux Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Derulux

This is actually the basis of the "arm weight" methodology.

This is incorrect. There are assertions made by the "school", both in history (by authority, at that) and in contemporary pedagogy, that render your point completely invalid.

It's obvious that one can actuate a single set of n >= 1 keys by using a portion of your arm weight, this is undisputed. The problem arises when students are taught that the arm ought to be "fully relaxed" and that play comes as a function of the manipulation of weight distribution, when it really comes from a coordinated system that chiefly does not use arm weight, but instead uses momentum and appropriate flexion and extension by means of a balanced central nervous system (insofar as piano play is concerned).

First, let's forget history. I'm not going to argue the 19th century (or earlier) with anyone. To me, it's pointless and a waste of time. So, let's stick to contemporary teaching, since that's the direction we were heading when I joined the conversation. If you'd like to discuss historical teachings, I'm sure many others would be interested in such a thread, but what was taught by Chopin in his own solar: 1) is impossible to determine factually, but only by inference, and 2) has little/no bearing on what is taught today except that it "came before". This would be akin to saying the way we speak Latin today is exactly how the Romans pronounced it 2000 years ago. Impossible to determine.

I'd be happy to continue the conversation, but instead of providing a vague, "That is incorrect," statement, please state which part you disagree with. (I did ask that, from the beginning, as paramount to my willingness to even have a discussion about the topic, so that we could keep information and arguments clear. wink ) "There are assertions that...." To which assertions are you referring? "By the 'school'...." Which school? More than one school incorporates arm-weight methodology.

I would also like to know which "in-classroom" experience you've had that has led you to understand that students are taught exactly what you have supposed in exactly the way you have supposed it. I have to say, from my own experience, that your conclusions about what is taught are incorrect (or at least, misunderstood). I would be happy to clear up the misconceptions, but you've got to get much more specific regarding which parts you don't understand, and much less preachy about what you claim to know. (This reminds me somewhat of Will Hunting: "So if I asked you about art, you'd probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life's work, political aspirations, him and the pope, sexual orientations, the whole works, right? But I'll bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling; seen that. If I ask you about women, you'd probably give me a syllabus about your personal favorites. You may have even been laid a few times. But you can't tell me what it feels like to wake up next to a woman and feel truly happy. You're a tough kid. And I'd ask you about war, you'd probably throw Shakespeare at me, right, "once more unto the breach dear friends." But you've never been near one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap, watch him gasp his last breath looking to you for help. I'd ask you about love, you'd probably quote me a sonnet. But you've never looked at a woman and been totally vulnerable. Known someone that could level you with her eyes, feeling like God put an angel on earth just for you. Who could rescue you from the depths of heck. And you wouldn't know what it's like to be her angel, to have that love for her, be there forever, through anything, through cancer. And you wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in the hospital room for two months, holding her hand, because the doctors could see in your eyes, that the terms "visiting hours" don't apply to you. You don't know about real loss, 'cause it only occurs when you've loved something more than you love yourself. And I doubt you've ever dared to love anybody that much. And look at you... I don't see an intelligent, confident man... I see a cocky, scared shitless kid. But you're a genius Will. No one denies that. No one could possibly understand the depths of you. But you presume to know everything about me because you saw a painting of mine...." wink

Unfortunately, I am not one of the people you can be vague with who will: 1) think you know what you're talking about, or 2) be remotely interested in what you're saying. State, rather than allude to, the knowledge you say you have. And before you say, "You can go look it up," understand that I actually do know what I'm talking about, and have had first-hand training in the things we're currently discussing. It's not a question of me not knowing something, but more a question of what information you have assimilated incorrectly through your own personal filter that is causing you to hold the opinion that you do. I can't address that if you refuse to specify, and at that point, the conversation will go nowhere and I will bow out.

Now, then, for example:

Quote:
The problem arises when students are taught that the arm ought to be "fully relaxed" and that play comes as a function of the manipulation of weight distribution....

The teachers I have come in contact with do not teach this at all, so your premise that this occurs would seem to be false. If the wording "fully relaxed" is causing you trouble, consider the substitute, "as relaxed as possible." The idea is to relax, and when you think you're relaxed, to relax more, and when you think you're relaxed, to relax more, until you get to an impossible state of relaxation in which your muscles are doing nothing. Then, you add the smallest amount of effort required to produce the intended result. In mathematical terms, think of it as a sum of effort as tension approaches zero. You want to be as close to zero as possible, without arriving at an undefined result. Your argument supposes we have gone all the way to zero, which is impossible (and incorrect). In a lesson with such a teacher, this could be cleared up very easily, but obviously in reading a book, it's a little harder to converse with a page of text. wink

Quote:
...when it really comes from a coordinated system that chiefly does not use arm weight, but instead uses momentum and appropriate flexion and extension by means of a balanced central nervous system (insofar as piano play is concerned).

This is a restatement of what I said originally. If it helps you to think of it this way, please feel free to do so. Understand, though, that you're saying exactly what I said in more scientific/academic terms.. which means, *gasp*, you're actually agreeing with what I wrote. wink
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#2269457 - 05/01/14 06:39 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JoelW]
DanS Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
Atrys,

What level pianist are you?


Yes Atrys, what level are you? Please enlighten us. Obviously you must have years of experience and be quite an accomplished pianist to go against conventional wisdom, wisdom that's taught in top conservatories worldwide. So, what exactly IS your level of pianistic ability?
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#2269485 - 05/01/14 08:15 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Polyphonist]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I wonder what would happen if we just stopped feeding, everyone. Let's try it, as an experiment?


I wasn't really trying to convince him of anything, but more addressing what he was saying for others to read so they can see another side of things. I repent of my behavior. smile
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#2269490 - 05/01/14 08:23 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Derulux]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Before I decide to join this melee, what exactly is wrong with this statement?

When in playing position, the biceps are used to keep the forearm level. Further, the biceps and other groups are then used to provide all forms of upward movement at the wrist. To actually relax one's arm for use during play is to require that the bicep is relaxed. If you relax your bicep, one of two things will happen: your arm falls to your side, or you "hold up" your arm with your fingers. The latter is what is relevant, but it's also absurd: one cannot move, even laterally, without using the bicep. When you use the bicep, you are then not applying your full "arm-weight" to the keys.

The entire hint here is that the fingers and required tension play a much larger role than what the arm-weight school claims.

In considering my response, please understand that I did graduate with a dual degree, one half of which was mechanical engineering. (That is why I wanted to clear biases, because wording can change meaning, and/or we might be talking about two completely different things. In this case, I think we would have been, so I'm glad we did that.)

I have never, ever heard a single approach to the piano say that you can't or shouldn't use your muscles appropriately. So, let's assume that, at some point, every approach to the piano eventually expects you to engage your muscles at certain critical moments in the course of playing.

If that is not agreed, let's stop and analyze this disagreement first, but I will proceed with the belief that we have, at least, that mutual understanding.

When you hold your hand above the piano, so that your fingers are necessarily above the keys, and you release the muscles that are holding up your arm, what happens? The lowest point on the hand (or finger, whichever is closer) hits one or more keys. If the force is great enough (and, even from a miniscule height, it is), this action will cause the hammer to strike the string. Thus, it is entirely possible to use the weight of the arm to produce sound.

Again, if you disagree with this, let's stop and analyze it before moving forward, but I will continue with the same understanding that this is mutually agreed.

Using a combination of these two principles -- properly applied muscular action, along with weight/gravity -- pianists produce specific sounds. This is actually the basis of the "arm weight" methodology. It is used primarily to counter the idea of artificially holding your arm above the keys (ie- "fixed" not "fluid"), and "brushing" with your fingers, or using stiff/forced movements to counter the arm's imbalance.


This is very well-put, Derulux. Actually I think that Atrys is addressing something that has not been stated. Your explanation is my understanding of arm-weight - used in conjunction with proper muscles. Atrys seems to be arguing with something no one here that I've seen has asserted: that we don't use muscles, just gravity acting upon the forearm to press a key. This is not what I've ever seen asserted here, or anywhere else for that matter.

Maybe someone out there thinks this, but it would behoove him to debate only the words actually being said and not what someone assumes you think.
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#2269575 - 05/01/14 11:16 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Derulux

This is a restatement of what I said originally

It's actually not. You're making baseless assertions that are not grounded in reality. Again, this usually comes from ignorance of a kind, or by bias sensation during play coupled with a poor understanding of the physics and mechanics involved.

To put it simply, it's literally impossible to play in the way that the school teaches.

If you actually think we are in agreement, then you acknowledge that play is not principally executed by weight, but instead executed by required tension and coordination. There is a huge difference.

Originally Posted By: Morodiene

This is not what I've ever seen asserted here, or anywhere else for that matter.

Again, this doesn't matter. I'm talking about the teachings of the arm-weight school, not "your" teachings.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269598 - 05/01/14 12:10 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Derulux Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Derulux

This is a restatement of what I said originally

It's actually not. You're making baseless assertions that are not grounded in reality. Again, this usually comes from ignorance of a kind, or by bias sensation during play coupled with a poor understanding of the physics and mechanics involved.

To put it simply, it's literally impossible to play in the way that the school teaches.

If you actually think we are in agreement, then you acknowledge that play is not principally executed by weight, but instead executed by required tension and coordination. There is a huge difference.

Hmm.. I once heard that you might be a bot, responding to posts via programming, but I didn't believe it until this post. If true, it would seem your specific programming is designed to target select information, and refute it through antagonistic and generalized phrasing without ever providing actual evidence or supporting your own statements. I am impressed by how specific "you" can be to the conversation, though.

How can I assert this? First, you completely misunderstood everything I wrote, holding on to this one phrase. Usually, only a computer could "get it wrong" that badly. Second, you perpetuate generalized statements that you have used before, and that, in this case, we know to be false: ie, "...coupled with a poor understanding of the physics and mechanics involved." I did say, at the start of this, that half my degree is mechanical engineering. And third, you claim that I'm doing exactly what you're doing, because that sort of thing is designed to elicit an emotional response. The angrier the response, the "funnier" the programmer thinks it is.

Now, then. Are you admitting here that you have nothing useful to add to the conversation, other than to vaguely neglect and misinterpret what others (including myself) have said?
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#2269601 - 05/01/14 12:21 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Are you admitting here that you have nothing useful to add to the conversation, other than to vaguely neglect and misinterpret what others (including myself) have said?

Nowhere did I even imply that.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

you completely misunderstood everything I wrote

This is untrue.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

in this case, we know to be false

This is untrue. No one has even tried to legitimately falsify my first refutation of the arm-weight teachings.

In fact, you're deviating so far from the discourse, asserting that I'm an AI, that this is hilariously absurd. It's pretty clear that you have no tools left and cannot offer logical or empirical refutation of my arguments, so you resort to petty attacks.

If you actually went on to read what the "school" holds to be truths, you would realize it's utter BS that was conceived in a time when we (humans) didn't know any better, and by uneducated piano pedagogy with no background in formal logic or the sciences (part of the reason that most musicians make poor scientists.) Today, we have a much more thorough understanding of these topics, enough to toss aside the arm-weight school of thought for the hogwash that it is.


Edited by Atrys (05/01/14 12:21 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269607 - 05/01/14 12:40 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
phantomFive Offline
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Registered: 01/11/14
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Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Are you admitting here that you have nothing useful to add to the conversation, other than to vaguely neglect and misinterpret what others (including myself) have said?

Nowhere did I even imply that.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

you completely misunderstood everything I wrote

This is untrue.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

in this case, we know to be false

This is untrue. No one has even tried to legitimately falsify my first refutation of the arm-weight teachings.

In fact, you're deviating so far from the discourse, asserting that I'm an AI, that this is hilariously absurd. It's pretty clear that you have no tools left and cannot offer logical or empirical refutation of my arguments, so you resort to petty attacks.

If you actually went on to read what the "school" holds to be truths, you would realize it's utter BS that was conceived in a time when we (humans) didn't know any better, and by uneducated piano pedagogy with no background in formal logic or the sciences (part of the reason that most musicians make poor scientists.) Today, we have a much more thorough understanding of these topics, enough to toss aside the arm-weight school of thought for the hogwash that it is.

What school exactly are you talking about?
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#2269610 - 05/01/14 12:44 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: phantomFive

What school exactly are you talking about?

It isn't necessarily a formal "school". When I say "school" I refer to the school of thought that arm-weight is, or can be, the principle mechanism of play.

Let me make it clear, again, that I'm not saying arm-weight cannot be used during play. Indeed it can and it certainly is, it's just not the principle mechanism of play and is not used in the fashion or to the degree that the "school" teaches.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269611 - 05/01/14 12:46 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Polyphonist Offline
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Atrys, have you gotten past the first bar of K545 yet?
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#2269613 - 05/01/14 12:54 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: phantomFive]
Derulux Offline
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Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
EDIT:
Originally Posted By: Atrys
It isn't necessarily a formal "school". When I say "school" I refer to the school of thought that arm-weight is, or can be, the principle mechanism of play.

Ah, there we have the problem. This school doesn't exist. (At least, not in the manner you seem to want to argue.) wink

Originally Posted By: Atrys
This is untrue. No one has even tried to legitimately falsify my first refutation of the arm-weight teachings.

Actually, it is. You have falsely attributed this statement to a continuation of the actual arm-weight debate, when it was actually a rebuttal of your implication that I don't understand physics. See? This is exactly what I mean -- you have taken something pretty simple to understand, applied it to an unrelated context, and then asserted an opinion based on that lack of understanding of what I wrote. Worse, you're completely blind to the fact that you do it. (This is why, despite the video of "you" playing that you posted when you first joined, I have to believe your posts are written by a bot program. Nobody could so completely misunderstand someone else's posts unless they were willingly trying to do it.)

Now, the reason why nobody has refuted your first refutation is because your first refutation, whatever it is, and wherever it is, is based entirely on pretense. Not one word of it is true. There are several experts on the subject actively trying to teach you this -- some of whom actually teach the method you're discussing so poorly -- and yet you still refuse to listen. So, I have to believe you're holding some archaic text paramount to a modern discussion against all evidence to the contrary, or you simply don't understand what's taught in classrooms today, or you don't understand the things people are writing in the forum. The trouble is, you refuse to listen to the people who do understand it, claiming that they must have a false sense of logic because they did not arrive at the same conclusion you did.

So, since you enjoy physics, let me ask you a question: someone stands on a ship traveling at the speed of light. Another person is standing still relative to that ship. The first person sees another ship traveling at the speed of light. The second person argues that the ship is traveling at twice the speed of light. Which one is right?

Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Are you admitting here that you have nothing useful to add to the conversation, other than to vaguely neglect and misinterpret what others (including myself) have said?

Nowhere did I even imply that.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

you completely misunderstood everything I wrote

This is untrue.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

in this case, we know to be false

This is untrue. No one has even tried to legitimately falsify my first refutation of the arm-weight teachings.

In fact, you're deviating so far from the discourse, asserting that I'm an AI, that this is hilariously absurd. It's pretty clear that you have no tools left and cannot offer logical or empirical refutation of my arguments, so you resort to petty attacks.

If you actually went on to read what the "school" holds to be truths, you would realize it's utter BS that was conceived in a time when we (humans) didn't know any better, and by uneducated piano pedagogy with no background in formal logic or the sciences (part of the reason that most musicians make poor scientists.) Today, we have a much more thorough understanding of these topics, enough to toss aside the arm-weight school of thought for the hogwash that it is.

What school exactly are you talking about?

Quit while you're ahead. grin He's been asked this very question at least three times in this thread alone, and has yet to answer it. Part of the reason that, once he posts, it's impossible to continue to contribute to meaningful discussion; his posts are often lacking meaning or content, and harp on one or two poorly understood generalizations that he probably read somewhere.

Just take a look at the logical/sequential post I provided when I first entered the discussion, and how jumbled and confused it got when he tried to spit it back out.


Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I wonder what would happen if we just stopped feeding, everyone. Let's try it, as an experiment?

I repent. After this post, of course. And, with the understand that, "maybe". grin


Edited by Derulux (05/01/14 12:56 PM)
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#2269617 - 05/01/14 01:05 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Derulux

This school doesn't exist.

It certainly does. All you have to do is read the books, listen to the teachers, and do your research.

You keep making assertions that are plainly irrelevant. You still have not offered any form of real refutation and you continue to make it obvious that you have run out of knowledge and tools to support your unfounded position. You've failed to do the very thing that wish to accomplish.

Until someone makes a real case based on reason and empirical understanding, the point stands uncontested.
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R. W. Emerson

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#2269621 - 05/01/14 01:18 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4820
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Until someone makes a real case based on reason and empirical understanding (...)

Have you done this?

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#2269633 - 05/01/14 01:48 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JoelW]
Derulux Offline
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Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Until someone makes a real case based on reason and empirical understanding (...)

Have you done this?

No, "he" hasn't. And if you check, that post is a relatively simple restatement of his previous post, which includes elements of all his "basic" programming (whether human or an actual bot). If he is a person, I'm suspecting some other conditions that I don't feel warrant airing publicly. Either way, it's a complete waste of time trying to hold a meaningful conversation.
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#2269643 - 05/01/14 02:09 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
noobpianist90 Offline
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Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 383
Loc: India
I would like to understand what "arm weight" is. I'm currently reading Gyorgy Sandor's "On piano playing". This is what I have understood as arm weight:

"Weight alone is of little use, unless it is set in motion. Even if a ton of weight is applied to the key, it does not produce a sound unless it moves downward with a certain speed. It is speed that generates sound, not weight; therefore let us use as little weight as possible when generating speed. Muscular force is of use only in generating speed in the hammers, not as energy spent statically. The simultaneous and extended activation of an antagonistic set of muscles (for example, the flexors and extensors of the forearm or the biceps and triceps of the upper arm) is unproductive, and in spite of vigorous feeling of energy and tension in the arm, it is totally superfluous and therefore should be avoided. All it causes is immobility and stiffness which ultimately result in poor sound. The inescapable conclusion is that technique must concern itself with setting the hammers in motion using the forces of gravity, and expending a minimal and efficient amount of our own muscular energy."

Please correct me if I am wrong.


Edited by noobpianist90 (05/01/14 02:10 PM)

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#2269646 - 05/01/14 02:17 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Derulux]
DanS Offline
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Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 558
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Hmm.. I once heard that you might be a bot


possibly not the only bot to recently invade the forum...
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#2269668 - 05/01/14 03:15 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: noobpianist90]
Derulux Offline
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Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: noobpianist90
I would like to understand what "arm weight" is. I'm currently reading Gyorgy Sandor's "On piano playing". This is what I have understood as arm weight:

"Weight alone is of little use, unless it is set in motion. Even if a ton of weight is applied to the key, it does not produce a sound unless it moves downward with a certain speed. It is speed that generates sound, not weight; therefore let us use as little weight as possible when generating speed. Muscular force is of use only in generating speed in the hammers, not as energy spent statically. The simultaneous and extended activation of an antagonistic set of muscles (for example, the flexors and extensors of the forearm or the biceps and triceps of the upper arm) is unproductive, and in spite of vigorous feeling of energy and tension in the arm, it is totally superfluous and therefore should be avoided. All it causes is immobility and stiffness which ultimately result in poor sound. The inescapable conclusion is that technique must concern itself with setting the hammers in motion using the forces of gravity, and expending a minimal and efficient amount of our own muscular energy."

Please correct me if I am wrong.

This is a pretty descriptive paragraph, and highlights a lot of the generalizations I made in a previous post. The only thing that really makes me cringe (because of my background in physics/engineering) is the incorrect use of the word "weight". But I understand that, for most people, this is probably the best way to say it because of their understanding of the word "weight". Thing is, it doesn't really change the end result, so there isn't much point in arguing about it; the only reason to bring it up is if someone is incapable of understanding what the author is saying, and for whatever reason, needs that clarification.

Originally Posted By: DanS
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Hmm.. I once heard that you might be a bot


possibly not the only bot to recently invade the forum...

Really? Do tell!
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#2269675 - 05/01/14 03:33 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
DanS Offline
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Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 558
Well, I don't want to upset anyone but there are other recent posts with a similar unreasonable vibe. Perhaps PW is becoming a troll-bot proving ground.
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#2269676 - 05/01/14 03:34 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7643
Loc: New York City
I know who Dan is talking about, and indeed there are many striking similarities. grin However, let's leave him unnamed.
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#2269706 - 05/01/14 04:40 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
JohnSprung Offline
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Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1434
Loc: Reseda, California

All this arm weight stuff reminded me of somebody....

http://popeye.com/


;-)
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#2269708 - 05/01/14 04:42 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: JoelW

Have you done this?

Yes, which is why no one is able to refute it. The point still stands uncontested, and Derulux's "background" is obviously questionable; maybe it's more correct to say his understanding of the material is obviously questionable since he's not able to grasp the idea of weight apart from mass.

@noobpianist90
That is pretty close to the mark, but it is still not entirely empirically accurate. It isn't gravity we're using in chief, it's mass, independent of gravity as the opposition to the force from the key made possible by minimal, yet required, muscular firing.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269711 - 05/01/14 04:45 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4820
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: JoelW

Have you done this?

Yes

Where?

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#2269713 - 05/01/14 04:50 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
@JoelW
In this thread, as well as others.

Not a single person has legitimately challenged the refutation of this school's garbage ideas and garbage teachings. Not even the professors in our music department can provide a sound argument in their favor: their way of thinking is simply not aligned enough with empirical observation and reason and science. There's just no reason to believe the ideas are true, and there's all the reason to believe that they aren't.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269715 - 05/01/14 04:53 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4820
Loc: USA
Can you restate the argument? Or at least provide me a link to wherever you previously stated it.

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#2269716 - 05/01/14 04:58 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JoelW]
Atrys Offline
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Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Can you restate the argument for me please?

One of the cases I've made is in this very thread, so you shouldn't have any trouble finding it.

It strikes me now that a better, much more fitting, much more accurate platform for this way of thinking is to base the ideas on mass and momentum and kinetic energy and these things; not "weight".
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269717 - 05/01/14 05:00 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4820
Loc: USA
There are five pages and quite a lot of posts from you. Please just restate the argument or provide a link to where you previously stated it.

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#2269725 - 05/01/14 05:09 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
DanS Offline
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Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 558
I'm still waiting for a response from Atrys on his playing ability. Joel asked and I asked, but there's still no response.

I think someone who this emphatically resists a time honored idea that everyone in the music community accepts must have considerable knowledge on the subject. It must be a concept he has mastered and can look back at having mastered the approach and consequently transcended the concept.
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#2269727 - 05/01/14 05:12 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JohnSprung]
beet31425 Offline
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#2269735 - 05/01/14 05:33 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: phantomFive]
Fiona0424 Offline
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Registered: 04/29/14
Posts: 217
Thanks! I usually try to keep tension at bay, but today, I took your advice (a bit exaggeratedly) and played the chords very relaxedly. It worked! My hands were definately not as tired as they usually are. It didn't sound the way I wanted it to exactly since I think the chords should be played more ... "bitingly". But I will continue practicing it this way and take it to my professor. He hasn't heard me pay it in a long while anyways. smile
Thanks again! I love this forum!
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And when he behaves, Rachmaninoff is my darling! ;p

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#2269737 - 05/01/14 05:35 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: phantomFive]
Fiona0424 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/29/14
Posts: 217
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Fiona0424
I have the same problem in Appassionata. I can play the 1st, 2nd and half of the 3 movement fine - but when I get to the very end, that coda is a killer! I am so tired, like the same athlete-tired you were talking about! The chords seem to exhaust my hands and by the time I get to the fast notes run upward, I just lose it. I don't know if this is a technique problem or what.

Try relaxing your wrist more on the chords. You might be holding them fixed, and that will give you problems.

Thanks! I usually try to keep tension at bay, but today, I took your advice (a bit exaggeratedly) and played the chords very relaxedly. It worked! My hands were definately not as tired as they usually are. It didn't sound the way I wanted it to exactly since I think the chords should be played more ... "bitingly". But I will continue practicing it this way and take it to my professor. He hasn't heard me pay it in a long while anyways. smile
Thanks again! I love this forum!
_________________________
*Fiona*

"If music be food of love, play on!"
P.S. I am in love with Beethoven, infatuated with Liszt, and crazy about Chopin!
And when he behaves, Rachmaninoff is my darling! ;p

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#2269740 - 05/01/14 05:37 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: jdw]
Fiona0424 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/29/14
Posts: 217
Originally Posted By: jdw
Originally Posted By: Fiona0424
I have the same problem in Appassionata. I can play the 1st, 2nd and half of the 3 movement fine - but when I get to the very end, that coda is a killer! I am so tired, like the same athlete-tired you were talking about! The chords seem to exhaust my hands and by the time I get to the fast notes run upward, I just lose it. I don't know if this is a technique problem or what. I have been studying with a reputable professor who tells me that my technique is very good, so I am worried that it may just be muscle exhaustion. I am also a young pianist like you (18 yrs old) and am starting my studies in August. So maybe playing the entire Appassionata is just too much for me just like the Brahms practicing was too much for you. I don't know. But I hope you are getting better!
Best of luck!


If I were you, I would consult an expert in ergonomic technique. Many fine and reputable pianists are not well versed in this specialized area of study. This is one reason why many players become injured.

I remember reading a comment from Ilya Itin, that before learning the Taubman approach he would feel tired after playing and thought fatigue was just part of the deal.


Thanks! I will definitely consult my professor about this and look into what you've mentioned.
_________________________
*Fiona*

"If music be food of love, play on!"
P.S. I am in love with Beethoven, infatuated with Liszt, and crazy about Chopin!
And when he behaves, Rachmaninoff is my darling! ;p

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#2269774 - 05/01/14 07:23 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: DanS]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: DanS
I'm still waiting for a response from Atrys on his playing ability. Joel asked and I asked, but there's still no response.

I think someone who this emphatically resists a time honored idea that everyone in the music community accepts must have considerable knowledge on the subject. It must be a concept he has mastered and can look back at having mastered the approach and consequently transcended the concept.

He won't be able to. Atrys hasn't been able to refute a single thing I've said, other than to say he's refuted it, and worse, when he does refute it, he then restates it in another post as if it's a fact he's known all along. He's holding three cards in a five card game. wink
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#2269775 - 05/01/14 07:25 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7643
Loc: New York City
I have a saying: if you can't win an argument, just say you have and most people will believe you. Unfortunately, Atrys is doing it so badly that he's not fooling us. ha
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Polyphonist

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#2269780 - 05/01/14 07:33 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Sorry to say that Derulux's understanding of some pretty simple physics concepts are grossly false. I wouldn't be surprised if he made it out of university with a GPA < ~2.5, likely demonstrating a failure to fully understand and apply coursework in physics.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269782 - 05/01/14 07:48 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Derulux]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 848
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted By: Derulux
He won't be able to. Atrys hasn't been able to refute a single thing I've said, other than to say he's refuted it, and worse, when he does refute it, he then restates it in another post as if it's a fact he's known all along. He's holding three cards in a five card game. wink


Originally Posted By: Atrys
Sorry to say that Derulux's understanding of some pretty simple physics concepts are grossly false. I wouldn't be surprised if he made it out of university with a GPA < ~2.5, likely demonstrating a failure to fully understand and apply coursework in physics.


Check and Mate! laugh ha
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#2269795 - 05/01/14 08:16 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Morodiene Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12043
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Sorry to say that Derulux's understanding of some pretty simple physics concepts are grossly false. I wouldn't be surprised if he made it out of university with a GPA < ~2.5, likely demonstrating a failure to fully understand and apply coursework in physics.


Tsk, tsk. Ad hominem.
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#2269798 - 05/01/14 08:18 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Morodiene]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Sorry to say that Derulux's understanding of some pretty simple physics concepts are grossly false. I wouldn't be surprised if he made it out of university with a GPA < ~2.5, likely demonstrating a failure to fully understand and apply coursework in physics.


Tsk, tsk. Ad hominem.

laugh

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#2269799 - 05/01/14 08:20 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
@JoelW
In this thread, as well as others.

Not a single person has legitimately challenged the refutation of this school's garbage ideas and garbage teachings. Not even the professors in our music department can provide a sound argument in their favor: their way of thinking is simply not aligned enough with empirical observation and reason and science. There's just no reason to believe the ideas are true, and there's all the reason to believe that they aren't.


Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam) – assuming that a claim is true because it has not been or cannot be proven false, or vice versa.
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#2269800 - 05/01/14 08:20 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Morodiene]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene


Tsk, tsk. Ad hominem.

Hardly, which I concede to those who fail to recognize the difference between inference and insult. And don't act like Derulux and others are not guilty of the same crime to a much larger magnitude. Poly and JoelW, of course, leading the pack of trolls and "bullies".
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#2269801 - 05/01/14 08:20 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Morodiene Online   content
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I think I've figured it out. This bot is using every logical fallacy from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
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#2269804 - 05/01/14 08:21 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Morodiene


Tsk, tsk. Ad hominem.

don't act like Derulux and others are not guilty of the same crime to a much larger magnitude.

We aren't. At all.

I remember the other day you said that I insult people. I remember asking you for one example. Funny how you didn't reply.

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#2269805 - 05/01/14 08:22 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Morodiene]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
I think I've figured it out. This bot is using every logical fallacy from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I think I found one or two on there that it hasn't used yet. But I'm sure it will, given time. ha
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#2269807 - 05/01/14 08:24 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Morodiene]
Atrys Offline
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@Morodiene
A private voice instructor giving lessons of reason to an established engineer trained in formal logic!? Haha! You almost had me there.
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#2269808 - 05/01/14 08:25 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Morodiene


Tsk, tsk. Ad hominem.

don't act like Derulux and others are not guilty of the same crime to a much larger magnitude.

We aren't. At all.

Joel...trolls thrive on comments like this. Don't deny anything, it just cements the absurd ideas farther into their head (or computer, as the case may be). grin
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#2269809 - 05/01/14 08:26 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
@Morodiene
A private voice instructor giving lessons of reason to an established engineer trained in formal logic!? Haha! You almost had me there.

Yes, we all know Atrys the 20-year-old "established engineer." grin
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#2269810 - 05/01/14 08:27 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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I am, indeed, established. Don't be frustrated just because the "troll" is successful.
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R. W. Emerson

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#2269811 - 05/01/14 08:28 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Vid Offline
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What happens if you just confirm everything 'it' posts? grin
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#2269813 - 05/01/14 08:28 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Polyphonist Offline
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I don't know, let's try it and see. Let's pull a compianist, as it were. grin
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#2269814 - 05/01/14 08:29 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Vid]
JoelW Offline
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I predict that its post count will slow down.

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#2269815 - 05/01/14 08:32 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
I predict that its post count will slow down.

After its first inflammatory post butting into a discussion, it won't really have anybody to insult, will it?
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#2269862 - 05/01/14 09:58 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Polyphonist]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Atrys
@Morodiene
A private voice instructor giving lessons of reason to an established engineer trained in formal logic!? Haha! You almost had me there.

Yes, we all know Atrys the 20-year-old "established engineer." grin


Right, and everyone knows a voice teacher can't possibly understand logic and reasoning, even though said voice teacher pointed to several logical fallacies that a certain self-proclaimed "established engineer" committed. smirk
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#2269864 - 05/01/14 10:01 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Fiona0424]
phantomFive Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fiona0424
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: Fiona0424
I have the same problem in Appassionata. I can play the 1st, 2nd and half of the 3 movement fine - but when I get to the very end, that coda is a killer! I am so tired, like the same athlete-tired you were talking about! The chords seem to exhaust my hands and by the time I get to the fast notes run upward, I just lose it. I don't know if this is a technique problem or what.

Try relaxing your wrist more on the chords. You might be holding them fixed, and that will give you problems.

Thanks! I usually try to keep tension at bay, but today, I took your advice (a bit exaggeratedly) and played the chords very relaxedly. It worked! My hands were definately not as tired as they usually are. It didn't sound the way I wanted it to exactly since I think the chords should be played more ... "bitingly". But I will continue practicing it this way and take it to my professor. He hasn't heard me pay it in a long while anyways. smile
Thanks again! I love this forum!


Great! Glad to hear it worked. Keep improving every day!
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#2269867 - 05/01/14 10:04 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Morodiene]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Atrys
@Morodiene
A private voice instructor giving lessons of reason to an established engineer trained in formal logic!? Haha! You almost had me there.

Yes, we all know Atrys the 20-year-old "established engineer." grin


Right, and everyone knows a voice teacher can't possibly understand logic and reasoning, even though said voice teacher pointed to several logical fallacies that a certain self-proclaimed "established engineer" committed. smirk

No, they weren't fallacies. You're wrong and you know it. You're just delusional and I bet you did not do well in your physics courses in university because you're just a charlatan who spreads misinformation on this forum.

(I said it for him because it didn't seem forthcoming. grin)
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#2269880 - 05/01/14 10:10 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Polyphonist]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Atrys
@Morodiene
A private voice instructor giving lessons of reason to an established engineer trained in formal logic!? Haha! You almost had me there.

Yes, we all know Atrys the 20-year-old "established engineer." grin


Right, and everyone knows a voice teacher can't possibly understand logic and reasoning, even though said voice teacher pointed to several logical fallacies that a certain self-proclaimed "established engineer" committed. smirk

No, they weren't fallacies. You're wrong and you know it. You're just delusional and I bet you did not do well in your physics courses in university because you're just a charlatan who spreads misinformation on this forum.

(I said it for him because it didn't seem forthcoming. grin)
LOL! Maybe it's a virus and you've just caught it!
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#2269882 - 05/01/14 10:11 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Morodiene]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Atrys
@Morodiene
A private voice instructor giving lessons of reason to an established engineer trained in formal logic!? Haha! You almost had me there.

Yes, we all know Atrys the 20-year-old "established engineer." grin


Right, and everyone knows a voice teacher can't possibly understand logic and reasoning, even though said voice teacher pointed to several logical fallacies that a certain self-proclaimed "established engineer" committed. smirk

No, they weren't fallacies. You're wrong and you know it. You're just delusional and I bet you did not do well in your physics courses in university because you're just a charlatan who spreads misinformation on this forum.

(I said it for him because it didn't seem forthcoming. grin)
LOL! Maybe it's a virus and you've just caught it!

Actually, I was beginning to put into effect our new plan. grin
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#2269895 - 05/01/14 10:24 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene

Right, everyone knows a voice teacher can't possibly understand logic and reasoning

How could you have possibly arrived at that conclusion? Nowhere did I say that or even imply it (straw man, dearest Morodiene). You must acknowledge that "voice teaching" does not require the rigor of math, physics, and logic that engineering does.

This isn't a battle of expertise, it's simply making you aware of the fact that it is completely reasonable to assume (yes, there is such a thing as a reasonable assumption) that a "voice teacher" isn't going to be as trained in these areas as an engineer, in the same way that an engineer isn't going to be as trained as a "voice teacher" in things like "voice theory" (or whatever you call it).
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#2269896 - 05/01/14 10:25 PM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Polyphonist Offline
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Atrys, you are absolutely right.
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#2269934 - 05/02/14 12:12 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Polyphonist]
Derulux Offline
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Atrys, you are absolutely right.

I agree. To continue Atrys' infallible logic, and indeed, this time it is certainly infallible: it is probably equally reasonable to assume that a "piano teacher" is going to be better-trained in things like "piano theory" than oh, say, a student masquerading as an accomplished engineer. Thank God Atrys was here to clear that up. I would not have been able to arrive at that conclusion on my own. grin

Edit: And now, like Vid said, I believe we have arrived at check and mate. laugh


Edited by Derulux (05/02/14 12:13 AM)
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#2269939 - 05/02/14 12:37 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Derulux
a "piano teacher" is going to be better-trained in things like "piano theory" than oh, say, a student masquerading as an accomplished engineer.

Actually, I am an "accomplished engineer". There seems to be this theme with a few of you that because of my age that cannot be possible, which is at once understandable and entirely false.

To add, you (and others) are using an argument from authority. In short, it does not matter what one's "credentials" are. I repeat the tautology: if you're wrong, you're wrong. In this case, Derulux, you're wrong. You'll just have to deal with this fact until you have a better grasp on the actual teachings of the arm-weight school and a better grasp on the physics that easily falsify their claims. Frankly, the whole thing is a load of pseudo-science garbage and it's surprising to see that the school of thought has made it this far.
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R. W. Emerson

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#2269940 - 05/02/14 12:38 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
cub Offline
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Registered: 11/25/12
Posts: 35
Hi Adanepst,

Myasthenia Gravis is a condition where the muscles fatigue easily. It usually affects the eye muscles but can also affect the muscles of the limbs including wrist and finger extensor muscles. I'm not suggesting you have this condition but it came to mind when you described painless fatiguability and weakness which improves with rest.


Edited by cub (05/02/14 12:39 AM)

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#2269941 - 05/02/14 12:40 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
DanS Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
...it is completely reasonable to assume (yes, there is such a thing as a reasonable assumption) that a "voice teacher" isn't going to be as trained in these areas as an engineer, in the same way that an engineer isn't going to be as trained as a "voice teacher" in things like "voice theory" (or whatever you call it).


Following this logic, who would better understand a pianistic technique such as arm weight? A cadre of well educated professional pianists or a self proclaimed beginner pianist who by your own admission is "unable to find the sensation" of weight playing?

You're all over the map here.
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#2269942 - 05/02/14 12:45 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: DanS]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: DanS

who would better understand a pianistic technique such as arm weight. A cadre of well educated professional pianists or a self proclaimed beginner pianist

This, again, is an argument from authority and is actually not following the same line of logic. Making assertions that have no supporting evidence, yet have all the evidence to the contrary are not factual assertions; they are falsities. I, again, repeat the tautology: if you're wrong, you're wrong.
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"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269943 - 05/02/14 12:45 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
DanS Offline
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Wait, what I meant to say was...

Atrys, you are absolutely right.
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#2269944 - 05/02/14 12:49 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
DanS Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: DanS

who would better understand a pianistic technique such as arm weight. A cadre of well educated professional pianists or a self proclaimed beginner pianist

This, again, is an argument from authority and is actually not following the same line of logic. Making assertions that have no supporting evidence, yet have all the evidence to the contrary are not factual assertions; they are falsities. I, again, repeat the tautology: if you're wrong, you're wrong.


I'm just following your logic. You claim that you understand logic better because you're an engineer. Where's your proof? It's the same "argument from authority" that you accuse others of asserting. That's my point.
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#2269945 - 05/02/14 12:50 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: DanS

Atrys, you are absolutely right.

This should have been obvious, to any thinking person, from the very beginning. Happy to see you concede defeat and acknowledge that this silly school of thought is based on nothing but the stuff of fiction.

I'm also happy to see that the College of Engineering and College of Science piano students have caused quite the stir in the Piano department; even the piano majors have taken a deep interest into modern thinking. Now that's progress of a kind!


Edited by Atrys (05/02/14 12:50 AM)
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"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269946 - 05/02/14 12:53 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: DanS]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: DanS

I'm just following your logic.

You really aren't.

Originally Posted By: DanS

Where's your proof?

Take one or two university level physics courses and you'll see for yourself. Actually, you don't even have to take formal courses, you just have to have a firm grasp on the relevant topics, as well as an understanding of the "school". Any thinking person with these bodies of pre-requisite knowledge will see that the "school" is based on fiction.
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"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269950 - 05/02/14 12:58 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
JoelW Offline
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I still don't really know what Atrys is arguing.

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#2269951 - 05/02/14 01:03 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
DanS Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys

Take one or two university level physics courses and you'll see for yourself. Actually, you don't even have to take formal courses, you just have to have a firm grasp on the relevant topics, as well as an understanding of the "school". Any thinking person with these bodies of pre-requisite knowledge will see that the "school" is based on fiction.


I believe someone here recently said this, and it applies well in this situation.

"This, again, is an argument from authority and is actually not following the same line of logic. Making assertions that have no supporting evidence, yet have all the evidence to the contrary are not factual assertions; they are falsities. I, again, repeat the tautology: if you're wrong, you're wrong."
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#2269952 - 05/02/14 01:04 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: JoelW]
DanS Offline
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Originally Posted By: JoelW
I still don't really know what Atrys is arguing.


Neither does he. His programming is not that complex.
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#2269954 - 05/02/14 01:09 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Derulux Offline
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Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Derulux
a "piano teacher" is going to be better-trained in things like "piano theory" than oh, say, a student masquerading as an accomplished engineer.

In short, it does not matter what one's "credentials" are.

I'm amazed to find that I'm agreeing with you again, considering I was agreeing with you before; and now, you also apparently are agreeing with Morodiene; all while disagreeing with yourself about this very idea. I really am enjoying all this agreeing. Perhaps, if you hadn't disagreed in the first place, we could all have agreed much sooner. Or, if you could find it in your logic/heart to agree with yourself more often, it might be easier to follow your opinions/beliefs more accurately. wink

Quote:
Actually, I am an "accomplished engineer". There seems to be this theme with a few of you that because of my age that cannot be possible, which is at once understandable and entirely false.

If you provide your credentials in this regard, I would be happy to recant. I'm guessing you won't.
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#2269956 - 05/02/14 01:10 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: DanS]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: DanS
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I still don't really know what Atrys is arguing.


Neither does he. His programming is not that complex.

No, you meant that he's absolutely right. And I agree.
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#2269961 - 05/02/14 01:34 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
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Originally Posted By: DanS

it applies well in this situation

Actually it doesn't, and it's just the opposite. With the pre-requisite knowledge, you can see the facts for yourself.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

If you provide your credentials in this regard, I would be happy to recant.

Since I'm still in my degree program, the only credentials I can offer are my professional endeavors. I've served as the lead engineer on projects funded and principally owned by the United States EPA, I've served as the VP of Engineering and chief POC on projects for Fox Broadcasting, Viacom, Nike, and others. I've sold systems, as a party of my own, to universities, have served as the interim/contract consultant engineer for a startup based in Toronto and two others based in the US.

I've also worked professionally for the university, am currently employed by an F100 with full benefits (with whom I've had a relationship with since early high school), have performed research that has been endorsed by regional figures, won state-level competitions (sounds strange, but yes), and will be accepting an engineering management position come this summer.

There's other stuff, but there's no sense in posting my resume here lol.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269962 - 05/02/14 01:35 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Derulux]
Cinnamonbear Online   content
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Derulux vs. the Bot

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#2269963 - 05/02/14 01:38 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Cinnamonbear Online   content
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Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3924
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Atrys
[...] Since I'm still in my degree program, the only credentials I can offer are my professional endeavors. I've served as the lead engineer on projects funded and principally owned by the United States EPA, I've served as the VP of Engineering and chief POC on projects for Fox Broadcasting, Viacom, Nike, and others. I've sold systems, as a party of my own, to universities, have served as the interim/contract consultant engineer for a startup based in Toronto and two others based in the US.

I've also worked professionally for the university, am currently employed by an F100 with full benefits (with whom I've had a relationship with since early high school), have performed research that has been endorsed by regional figures, won state-level competitions (sounds strange, but yes), and will be accepting an engineering management position come this summer.

There's other stuff, but there's no sense in posting my resume here lol.


And yet, you spend so much of your modern time, here, bickering with closed-minded pianists. crazy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2269964 - 05/02/14 01:43 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear

And yet, you spend so much of your modern time, here, bickering with closed-minded pianists.

I don't see it that way; it's more like a cliche "mission" of sorts, and every reader convinced is another worth "fighting" for.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269965 - 05/02/14 01:46 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Piano Doug Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/24/13
Posts: 182
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: DanS

it applies well in this situation

Actually it doesn't, and it's just the opposite. With the pre-requisite knowledge, you can see the facts for yourself.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

If you provide your credentials in this regard, I would be happy to recant.

Since I'm still in my degree program, the only credentials I can offer are my professional endeavors. I've served as the lead engineer on projects funded and principally owned by the United States EPA, I've served as the VP of Engineering and chief POC on projects for Fox Broadcasting, Viacom, Nike, and others. I've sold systems, as a party of my own, to universities, have served as the interim/contract consultant engineer for a startup based in Toronto and two others based in the US.

I've also worked professionally for the university, am currently employed by an F100 with full benefits (with whom I've had a relationship with since early high school), have performed research that has been endorsed by regional figures, won state-level competitions (sounds strange, but yes), and will be accepting an engineering management position come this summer.

There's other stuff, but there's no sense in posting my resume here lol.


Can you provide us with references so that we can verify these statements?

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#2269966 - 05/02/14 01:47 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Piano Doug Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/24/13
Posts: 182
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: DanS

it applies well in this situation

Actually it doesn't, and it's just the opposite. With the pre-requisite knowledge, you can see the facts for yourself.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

If you provide your credentials in this regard, I would be happy to recant.

Since I'm still in my degree program, the only credentials I can offer are my professional endeavors. I've served as the lead engineer on projects funded and principally owned by the United States EPA, I've served as the VP of Engineering and chief POC on projects for Fox Broadcasting, Viacom, Nike, and others. I've sold systems, as a party of my own, to universities, have served as the interim/contract consultant engineer for a startup based in Toronto and two others based in the US.

I've also worked professionally for the university, am currently employed by an F100 with full benefits (with whom I've had a relationship with since early high school), have performed research that has been endorsed by regional figures, won state-level competitions (sounds strange, but yes), and will be accepting an engineering management position come this summer.

There's other stuff, but there's no sense in posting my resume here lol.


And your music and piano credentials?

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#2269967 - 05/02/14 01:47 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Cinnamonbear Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3924
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear

And yet, you spend so much of your modern time, here, bickering with closed-minded pianists.

I don't see it that way; it's more like a cliche "mission" of sorts, and every reader convinced is another worth "fighting" for.


Well, don't quit your day job.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2269968 - 05/02/14 01:49 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6368
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: DanS

it applies well in this situation

Actually it doesn't, and it's just the opposite. With the pre-requisite knowledge, you can see the facts for yourself.

Originally Posted By: Derulux

If you provide your credentials in this regard, I would be happy to recant.

Since I'm still in my degree program, the only credentials I can offer are my professional endeavors. I've served as the lead engineer on projects funded and principally owned by the United States EPA, I've served as the VP of Engineering and chief POC on projects for Fox Broadcasting, Viacom, Nike, and others. I've sold systems, as a party of my own, to universities, have served as the interim/contract consultant engineer for a startup based in Toronto and two others based in the US.

I've also worked professionally for the university, am currently employed by an F100 with full benefits (with whom I've had a relationship with since early high school), have performed research that has been endorsed by regional figures, won state-level competitions (sounds strange, but yes), and will be accepting an engineering management position come this summer.

There's other stuff, but there's no sense in posting my resume here lol.


OK - you're a wunderkind. Big deal.

Folks - don't we have better things to do with our time here? grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2269969 - 05/02/14 01:51 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Piano Doug]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Piano Doug

Can you provide us with references so that we can verify these statements?

You must be kidding. I'm not handing out my managers' contact information so that a bunch of strangers can call him. I truly, honestly don't care if you don't believe me: it literally makes no difference in anything at all. In fact, I would encourage you to read all things and try to acquire all information as if it were apart from the means or person that delivered it to you. Skepticism is the first step to reason.


Edited by Atrys (05/02/14 01:51 AM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269974 - 05/02/14 02:02 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 854
Loc: UK, Brighton
Originally Posted By: Atrys
I truly, honestly don't care if you don't believe me: it literally makes no difference in anything at all. In fact, I would encourage you to read all things and try to acquire all information as if it were apart from the means or person that delivered it to you. Skepticism is the first step to reason.

Hmm...how apt. Though, I believe, it's "difference to anything at all", I'm afraid. I agree, though, that what you say makes literally no difference at all...sorry...cheap shots *have* to be taken some times wink Um...with your busy schedule clearly being interrupted by us troglodytes, don't you feel guilty for every second wasted; a second that could be better spent securing the future of "modernised" humanity? Just...um...don't regret your time; being a genius has its perks and responsibilities; to boast one is to swell the other.
Xxx
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

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#2269975 - 05/02/14 02:03 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: carey]
Cinnamonbear Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3924
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: carey
[...] Folks - don't we have better things to do with our time here? grin


I was also going to say, as "Atrys" has so aptly demonstrated, that you can't argue with someone who won't listen. Well, you can, but you are wasting your breath.

It's an odd thing to feel compelled to respond to they typed thoughts of another, and yet, compelled we are, apparently. wink crazy

As for me, I popped into this thread to see how the "Atrys" enigma was proceeding, and was happy to see two things in particular: 1) Derulux's measured and cogent posts (in which I actually learned something about staying relaxed while playing grin ), and b) Morodiene's insight regarding "Atrys'" pattern of replies.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2269977 - 05/02/14 02:14 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: FSO]
Cinnamonbear Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3924
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: FSO
[...] Um...with your busy schedule clearly being interrupted by us troglodytes, don't you feel guilty for every second wasted; a second that could be better spent securing the future of "modernised" humanity? [...]


Say, FSO, perhaps you can clear something up for me--a thought I had when "Atrys" first broached the concept of modernity by writing, "even the piano majors have taken a deep interest into modern thinking." I am somewhat lost in the labeling of eras, but I believe we have moved past the "post-modern," yes? How many "eras" have there been since the "post-modern" one? Just exactly *what* era is this, these days? crazy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2269978 - 05/02/14 02:15 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: FSO

don't you feel guilty for every second wasted; a second that could be better spent securing the future of "modernised" humanity?

Nope. I'm already way too productive professionally and academically and have no concerns with either; I do, like most people, enjoy inexhaustible hobbies and immersing myself in them in the same fashion as my professional or academic life.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2269980 - 05/02/14 02:37 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Atrys
[...] Since I'm still in my degree program, the only credentials I can offer are my professional endeavors. I've served as the lead engineer on projects funded and principally owned by the United States EPA, I've served as the VP of Engineering and chief POC on projects for Fox Broadcasting, Viacom, Nike, and others. I've sold systems, as a party of my own, to universities, have served as the interim/contract consultant engineer for a startup based in Toronto and two others based in the US.

I've also worked professionally for the university, am currently employed by an F100 with full benefits (with whom I've had a relationship with since early high school), have performed research that has been endorsed by regional figures, won state-level competitions (sounds strange, but yes), and will be accepting an engineering management position come this summer.

There's other stuff, but there's no sense in posting my resume here lol.


And yet, you spend so much of your modern time, here, bickering with closed-minded pianists. crazy

Not only that, but fortune 100 companies are lining up to hire an undergrad candidate for executive-level positions (and, indeed, supposedly have hired), not to mention he/it is a VP and a chief point of contact. Uncanny!

Sorry, Atrys, but I don't buy it. Provide evidence, not just statements. With the "credentials" posted, I'm surprised you haven't drafted, garnered enough support, and passed a constitutional amendment to reduce the required age for US President, campaigned, and successfully won the office by now... wink

Originally Posted By: Atrys
You must be kidding. I'm not handing out my managers' contact information so that a bunch of strangers can call him.

You don't have to. Your full name would suffice. Someone with your accomplishments should have their own wikipedia page. If that doesn't work for you, I can always default to this:

"This, again, is an argument from authority and is actually not following the same line of logic. Making assertions that have no supporting evidence, yet have all the evidence to the contrary are not factual assertions; they are falsities. I, again, repeat the tautology: if you're wrong, you're wrong." --Atrys

Quote:
In fact, I would encourage you to read all things and try to acquire all information as if it were apart from the means or person that delivered it to you.

I do. I read about 100 books a year. If you do the math on that, it's around 100-150 pages a day. Everything from technical manuals to Harry Potter. (I drew the line at Twilight. Emo vampires suck. Pun intended. wink )

Quote:
Nope. I'm already way too productive professionally and academically and have no concerns with either; I do, like most people, enjoy inexhaustible hobbies and immersing myself in them in the same fashion as my professional or academic life.

"This, again, is an argument from authority and is actually not following the same line of logic. Making assertions that have no supporting evidence, yet have all the evidence to the contrary are not factual assertions; they are falsities. I, again, repeat the tautology: if you're wrong, you're wrong." --Atrys

Originally Posted By: Carey
Folks - don't we have better things to do with our time here?

Sorry, I've been amusing myself. You're probably right.. grin
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2269981 - 05/02/14 02:41 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
@Derelux
Yeah, I didn't expect you to "buy" the truths I offer you. I've already addressed this point in a previous point to another member.

This still does nothing to help your case; the arm-weight teachings are the stuff of fiction and you failed to prove otherwise.

protip: so has literally everyone else that has tried to prove the concepts.


Edited by Atrys (05/02/14 02:41 AM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269982 - 05/02/14 02:41 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1487
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: phantomFive

What school exactly are you talking about?

It isn't necessarily a formal "school". When I say "school" I refer to the school of thought that arm-weight is, or can be, the principle mechanism of play.

Let me make it clear, again, that I'm not saying arm-weight cannot be used during play. Indeed it can and it certainly is, it's just not the principle mechanism of play and is not used in the fashion or to the degree that the "school" teaches.


Now you have me interested in history. Of course the word 'weight' has as many different meanings as the word 'socialism,' but I've spent the evening reviewing some great teachers.

In the historical context, many piano teachers of the time (notoriously the Stuttgart conservatory) were teaching to hold the hand in a fixed position, held tightly at the wrist, to lift the fingers very high, to strike the keys with the the fingers. It was in response that teachers like Rudolph Breithaupt, Tobias Matthay, John Townsend, Maria Levinskaya and others began looking for a better way.


Example of hand position taught by the old 'finger school' (according to Breithaupt). Don't hold your hands like this.


The improvement they found was playing with a relaxed arm and wrist, with arm movement from the elbow, although great pianists like Rubenstein were already doing this. The problem they had was how to describe this to students. The answer they arrived at was weight.

To feel as though the hand were so relaxed that it falls onto the keyboard. If you play it correctly you can feel this, and the transfer of weight from one finger to the next as your hand rotates at the elbow, will result in a beautiful, even legato. Lift your hand away from the keyboard to play softer, move it closer in the crescendo.

The question then is whether any of these people thought that weight was the only thing pushing down on the piano, or whether they were aware of the motion of the elbow.

Certainly Breithaupt knew there was more than just weight involved in piano playing, as he wrote in his book Natural Piano Technic II, "Finger-action with weight is the the only correct action. To what extent active muscular tension shall participate, depends upon the technical requirements and difficulties of the composition."(p 56) Arnold Schultz pointed out Breithaupts method might have more accurately been named the School of Arm-Touch, rather than the school of weight.

Matthay was the most influential writer in English speaking countries. His writing was so difficult that later Ambrose Coveillo wrote a book to clarify called What Matthay Meant, which is not altogether clear in itself. However Matthay made a lot of good points, such as not to squeeze the key harder after it is already depressed, and not to waste energy.

To the point, did Matthay understand the involvement of the arm muscles when playing with 'weight?' It seems he did, as he discussed the muscles in his book Act of Touch, "We may optionally employ movements either of the Arm, Hand, or the Finger....the weight form of muscular-combination is the only form that will allow us to obtain the full measure of good tone."(pp217-219) Notably, Matthay constantly emphasized relaxation as a reaction to the Stuttgart school. He was aware that some muscle tension was necessary, but because he constantly mentioned relaxation, some of his readers misunderstood that no tension was allowed. That is another topic.

Before Breithaupt or Matthay came William Townsend (of Scotland). He described it as a problem of balance, balancing the arm weight with muscular control. In his book Balance of Arm in Piano Technique he wrote, "The balanced state is that in which, when the fingers are resting on anything, the whole limb from shoulder to finger-tips is at any moment ready and willing to swing: up, down, sideways, or circularly, at the wrist or elbows."(p43)

Maria Levinskaya was able to see the benefits of using both the fingers and the arms (Breithaupt stubbornly denied any possibility of benefit from using solely the fingers, Matthay was more understanding. Incidentally, the fallacy of referring to a single 'school of weight' becomes apparent when you read the huge arguments between the two foremost proponents, Breithaupt and Matthay).

She tried to teach each, and emphasized one or the other depending on what her students needed (from The Levinskaya System of Pianoforte Technique and Tone-Colour through Mental and Muscular Control (p72):

This method is probably still useful

I haven't been able to figure out whether Levinskaya thought the movement was produced solely by weight, but she mentions 'controlled' weight, so probably not. Possibly she didn't care about the actual mechanisms involved.

That's the history, abridged.

I think Atry's problem is that he sees every conversation as a competition, rather than a learning experience. Maybe it would help him to pray for humility.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2269983 - 05/02/14 02:42 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: Atrys]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Atrys
@Derelux
Yeah, I didn't expect you to "buy" the truths I offer you. I've already addressed this point in a previous point to another member.

This still does nothing to help your case; the arm-weight teachings are the stuff of fiction and you failed to prove otherwise.

protip: so has literally everyone else that has tried to prove the concepts.

protip:
"This, again, is an argument from authority and is actually not following the same line of logic. Making assertions that have no supporting evidence, yet have all the evidence to the contrary are not factual assertions; they are falsities. I, again, repeat the tautology: if you're wrong, you're wrong." --Atrys
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2269984 - 05/02/14 02:42 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 854
Loc: UK, Brighton
Don't worry, CinnyB, I'm sure we're well into the retro era by now; there's the possibility of prescribing yourself as some form of pioneering eraclast, but I think it's best to join the fold of the current era; positively medieval if the world's political scene is anything by which to gauge. Um...shouldn't be long before a renaissance. Who knows, maybe the rack will be back in vogue? Or perhaps we're in a transient era; there are probably more people larping on village greens than ever lived there at the time, whilst stealthy bluetooth (and not ye dredded blutouth) keeps telecommunicative witchcraft at hand...who knows? laugh Really, um, the only thing I can be sure of is that actions speak louder than words and words are but shouted thoughts; so long as our actions become more modern, who's going to notice the insipid shout? Pre-renaissance era; give it 50 years or so before the neo-raphaelites get to work. Um...Atrys; I was always told that talents are not given but earnt, that to squander a gift and not realise its potential would be a sin for which your peers and loved ones will pay...I was told this by myself and, whilst I'm not always sure I'm right, I convinced myself of this truth; brilliance is not something to admit but to hide, lest when your world comes crumbling down the whimpers of blame should fall on you, rather than allowing you to huddle with them. Well...um...unless you can stop the world crumbling, in which case one mustn't risk flying on the edge, or it won't do so anyway, in which case what good is that talent in the first place? That aside... laugh immersing yourself in your hobbies in the same fashion as your professional life sounds very unenviable to me; how do you know where work ends and life begins?
Xxx
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

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#2269985 - 05/02/14 02:46 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
@phantomFive
Perfect example of a history-based and cited post. Something left for me to say is I already addressed a critical problem with the "school" by way of label caused by the sensation of this form of play. My point holds, the core ideas taught by the school hold, and the falsification of their base assertions hold.

(also, seeing "The 'Science' of Tone-Colour Technique" makes me cringe)

Originally Posted By: phantomFive

I think Atry's problem is that he sees every conversation as a competition

This is false.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2269986 - 05/02/14 02:47 AM Re: Tired Fingers [Re: adanepst]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
@Derulux
You've clearly run out of tools...again...and resort to petty tactics. Also, you obviously have no idea what an argument from authority actually is LOL.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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