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Reading the thread from the beginning, I would like to offer a few observations and comments.

I find it interesting that Mr. Burgett, from WN&G, chose to post this thread in the Piano Forum, rather than in the Tuner/Tech Forum. It is also absent in both of the Pianist Forums. It is not being directed at the professional technicians, but rather at pianists and piano lovers. Yet, the disputes which have arisen are primarily from those who work in the piano industry. After reading the informational part of the original post, you come to the heading; "Are Wessell, Nickel & Gross parts right for your piano?" (The text in the original is emphasized in Bold, as I have quoted it here.) It basically continues with a sales pitch to the readers of this forum.

We are also aware of the following pages of differing opinions, some of them expressed in a rather aggressive manner.

There is a recent addition to the thread from Mr. Schulte-Bukowski who is a pianists and technician, but he addressed the merits of the WN&G actions from the keyboard, rather than from the inside. His comment was "different." Earlier in the thread, I added my assessment and used the term "brittle."

There seems to be little doubt that the WN&G actions are a very fine product, and some would say 'superior,' from the viewpoint of the re-builder or piano technician. However, the ultimate decision remains with the pianist, the purchaser and user of the instrument. That is what matters most. If the concert level pianist remains unconvinced, does it really matter what materials are contained within the action?

With wood actions, there is a diversity of response (touch) of the many different specifications, even though they are produced by a single manufacturer, by design. Even if a piano has an action built by, say, Renner, A Hamburg Steinway has a different "feel" than a Ravenscroft, yet both have Renner actions and Kluge keysets. They are designed to respond differently.

The question I have about WN&G replacement actions is the ability to customize the product to the specifications of the OEM designers. Could one install a WN&G action in a Steinway and have it feel like a Steinway, or would it feel like a Mason & Hamlin?

The problem may not lie with the choice of materials, but rather with the problems in accommodating the needs and design of the full spectrum of piano builders.

The question always surfaces as to why the great builders wouldn't immediately switch to composite actions. Maybe because, at the present time, they don't want their pianos to feel like everyone else's pianos.

"Trust me, I say it is so," from "Trust me, I have no experience working on pianos, no background to talk about the materials in question, and no liability if they fail."

Why does Wessell, Nickel, & Gross not provide any information about the material that they use? What sort of guarantee do they offer? Is all the liability on the shoulders of the hapless technician?

Are you advocating making every "practice" piano to the lowest common performance standards found on stage pianos? If we stay with that no one could "improve" the piano in any way over what would be found on stages.

A sort of tyranny of mediocrity.

The artist in me recoils with horror!

Absolutely, and this is why many technicians love these parts. They are highly customizable. On the WNG tech website, I can order parts for many different brands, or, I can order custom.

So, there is a selection of differing geometries available?

Yes. There are 14 locations for the wippen heel and nine for the knuckle. Three different knuckle diameters are available. You can also select the appropriate flange and jack angle. You can also order "standard" parts for a variety of different manufacturers, which should work in most situations. And of course, hammer choice will have touch implications as well, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.

This is great for rebuilders.

Manufacturers may have different concerns or considerations.

Norbert

That may be right. And yet, speaking as a pianist, it is not automatically a disadvantage if a piano feels like someone else's piano. I'm piano shopping right now, and a Steinway advantage is the familiarity of touch. In fact I wish more Steinways felt more the same so that I'm not caught off-guard by an occasional molasses-laden action.

So far in my shopping I've played only one piano with a composite action; an M&H A that I tried solely to try out the action. No complaints in terms of the feel (too bad Dennis didn't have a BB in stock).

Here's a curious story; early in my search I tried out a very old NY Steinway C that had been privately rebuilt. Although the piano was unacceptable in other ways, the action was excellent! Knowing what I've learned in this thread, I may go back and take another look under the hood.

Larry.

From the pianist standpoint (not that of a tech or rebuilder), I've never played a composite action I've liked as much as a well set up traditional action. Most have been Kawais, a couple Masons-- and for some reason they have lacked that buttery feel, as if there is a slight disconnect. Is it just not being used to it? the knowledge that it was "different" maybe affected my perception? Not a convert yet.

I tried both WN&G wood and WN&G composite M&H BBs very close in serial number and in time of playing. Both actions were excellent, but I bought the wood, not because it was better, but because the piano sound was more rich and resonant. It is so difficult to make a useful comparison. For me the ideal way would be to have both actions made up for the same serial numbered piano, regulated and voiced precisely the same as judged by the tech and the pianist, then play them one after another back and forth with only the time required to change the action between the tests and not knowing which action you were playing.

Prout -- That would be an excellent test and comparison.

Are the wood M&H actions WN&G or are they simply Mason actions? Might they possibly be built by Renner or another company? Anyone know?

The more I think about this, the more I'm surprised that Steingraeber hasn't yet offered a composite action option for Phoenix instruments.

How about Stuart & Sons? All the Stuart & Sons website says is that the actions are "Manufactured to specification by leading action manufactures" I assume that both Renner and WNG could qualify as leading action manufacturers.

Larry.

Larry,

The Phoenix pianos are now provided with the WN&G composite actions when purchasing through Hurstwood Farms. I don't know if they are available through other Steingraeber dealerships.

My piano is one of the last few built by M&H with wood actions by WN&G. WN&G has their name imprinted into and stencilled on just about every piece of the action but the Renner hammers. That said, they still may have been outsourced.

Interesting. Everyone who has played my composite action so far has loved it. It is well regulated and voiced. I wonder what their reactions would have been had they known its true design. My friend has a newer (2009) Steinway D with a lovely action. However, now that I'm used to my piano, when I play hers, it seems not quite as refined. It is likely not as well regulated though.

I believe Stuart uses Tokiwa. They're nice. I've played two. The only Steingraeber-Phoenix pianos with WNG I've seen were at Hurstwood Farm. Everyone else seems to have the Renner.

Hahahaha

It sure was.

Thought musicality didn't matter...

Norbert

Norbert,
Glad you found some humor. I don't get it.

You do know what they say in show business don't you-"comedy is difficult--dying is easy!"

And Jurgen is bored and peeved with us!

Who's us?
Are you in the biz of this value chain?
This is confusing!

If this is the case:
In the instructions of this site, it says the pros must self-identity as such in their sig.


All the best,