Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2263512 - 04/18/14 12:32 PM Piano Learning Myths...
evamar Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 541
Loc: Spanish living in UK
Not sure this has already been mentioned here, but I quite enjoyed reading it... it actually put some of my worries at rest.

http://www.davidnevue.com/pianomyths.htm



Edited by evamar (04/18/14 12:33 PM)
_________________________
Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted



Top
(ads P/S)

Petrof Pianos

#2263513 - 04/18/14 12:38 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
EM Deeka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/13
Posts: 148
Thanks!! Isn't Richman, the author of Super Sightreading Secrets ?

Top
#2263519 - 04/18/14 12:48 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: EM Deeka]
evamar Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 541
Loc: Spanish living in UK
Yep, but as I found it in David Nevue's website, and he supports it, I put the link.

In his words, "I ran across the article below about piano lesson myths by piano teacher Howard Richman. It's used here with permission. I agree with most everything here and so thought you'd enjoy it! If you like this article, don't miss my other, tips for beginning pianists and piano composition!"

Also very good his piano tips
http://www.davidnevue.com/pianoadvice.htm
_________________________
Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted



Top
#2263710 - 04/18/14 06:24 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
dynamobt Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 646
Loc: NH
Good advice!! Well worth reading. Thanks for posting.
_________________________
1918 Mason & Hamlin BB





Top
#2263784 - 04/18/14 08:44 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1986
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Interesting read. Especially the other two links he gives to beginners.
Is comforting to hear the limits these famous people have. Is nice to know you don't have to know it all....so to speak.

On this article. I must disagree partly on practicing everyday. I agree you don't have to do a full blown practice everyday. You really should do something.
I refer to my learning on physiology. When a person is trying to do something new. A new movement. Something their nervous system doesn't know. It's important to do it everyday.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

Top
#2263825 - 04/18/14 09:19 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
B.Petrovic Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/18/14
Posts: 3
Interesting stuff, thanks for the post. I think there's a lot of rules that can be paralysing for beginners at any instrument. I remember people telling me that I would struggle to ever improve at guitar because I didn't start off learning jazz or classical - I actually believed it and felt pretty bad at the time.


Edited by B.Petrovic (04/18/14 09:19 PM)

Top
#2264457 - 04/20/14 03:23 AM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: rnaple]
evamar Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 541
Loc: Spanish living in UK
Originally Posted By: rnaple
Interesting read. Especially the other two links he gives to beginners.
Is comforting to hear the limits these famous people have. Is nice to know you don't have to know it all....so to speak.

On this article. I must disagree partly on practicing everyday. I agree you don't have to do a full blown practice everyday. You really should do something.
I refer to my learning on physiology. When a person is trying to do something new. A new movement. Something their nervous system doesn't know. It's important to do it everyday.


I also think that it's good to play everyday, but I do find that I do better when I leave a piece untouched for one or two days rather than playing it everyday. It seems that my poor neurones need some time to get something fixed in them.

So I go for the middle solution... I try to play everyday, but I don't play the same pieces everyday. And some days with little time I just play something I already know rather than learning or practicing something I still don't really know. Even if only for 5 minutes.
_________________________
Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted



Top
#2264468 - 04/20/14 06:08 AM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4849
Originally Posted By: evamar
Not sure this has already been mentioned here, but I quite enjoyed reading it... it actually put some of my worries at rest.

http://www.davidnevue.com/pianomyths.htm


Frankly, I think he's thrown in some myths of his own, which don't bear scrutiny.

1) The best way into music theory is through pop music - really? Almost all pop music is based on just four chords - which takes all of a few minutes to learn (you get the same in hymns too), and how far does that get you? The Coursera composition course gets through that in one session.

2) Pianists need rest days, just like body builders need them - really? That's a totally spurious association - body builders tear muscle fibers in order to rebuild them stronger by repair; pianists don't. Pianists don't need 'time to recover' (unless you've just played a two-hour program of Prokofiev's War Sonatas flowed by Stravinsky's Petrushka, with Liszt's Mephisto Waltz No.1 as encore...).
Pianists develop neural and neuromuscular connections which are what develop coordination and technique. It's developing a skill, just like learning a new language - and it's something you should work on everyday. Just like if you want to learn, say, Korean, living with a Korean family for a few weeks where you're exposed to the language at almost all waking hours will improve your grasp by leaps and bounds, compared to going to a class once a week, and spending half an hour a few days a week studying it.

Top
#2264545 - 04/20/14 12:38 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: bennevis]
EM Deeka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/13
Posts: 148
Originally Posted By: bennevis

...
1) The best way into music theory is through pop music - really? Almost all pop music is based on just four chords - which takes all of a few minutes to learn (you get the same in hymns too), and how far does that get you? The Coursera composition course gets through that in one session.
....

He is just suggesting it as the best way into music theory but never advocates restricting the scope of your study to just the 4 chords which in expert opinion covers the entire Elton John catalog !!

The full discussion of the particular myth from the article quoted below:
Quote:
“I have to study classical music before I can play pop or jazz.”

Reality: If a student’s ultimate goal is to play popular music, or even to do it with classical on an equal footing, this idea that you must study classical music first is incorrect. In fact, even if one’s goal is to focus strictly on classical literature, there is great value in studying popular chord technique and improvisation. The best way to study music theory is through POPULAR music! This is because chords are presented in a straightforward manner, as chord symbols, without even having to read music! (These are sometimes called “guitar chords” and are printed above the music staff.) Theory knowledge can make you a better performer, a better sight-reader, a better memorizer, a better interpreter and a better overall musician! And, of course, these attributes are applicable to playing classical music. The easiest way to start a path towards music theory is to study popular music, with a teacher who knows how to explain chord-reading (not notation). So, one could study classical first and then popular, but considering that these are different skills that take time to master, why not do them concurrently? To avoid popular music till classical music is mastered will make it much harder to learn music theory and in turn to derive the benefits of this knowledge.

Top
#2264553 - 04/20/14 01:00 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 892
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
I don't think this is good article; there are a lot of problems with it.

Here is just one: “If I want to play other instruments, the piano is a good foundation and will make those other instruments easier to learn.”

This is true, not a myth. The actual 'playing' of the piano does little/nothing. However, musical understanding, and thus musicianship, is greatly improved since more patterns are noticeable (i.e., vertical harmony and voice leading). It is actually SO important, that ever music university that I know of requires music majors to take keyboard skills--even onto the graduate level. Why?!? Because theory is understood, not in terms of violin performance, but how it functions on the piano. This is why violinist begrudgingly need to take keyboard classes.

The practicing everyday has already been address. Playing the piano is a skill that is mastered mentally, not physically. You don't need a break from thinking; everyone needs to THINK more.

Top
#2264559 - 04/20/14 01:14 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: bennevis]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1986
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: bennevis

2) Pianists need rest days, just like body builders need them - really? That's a totally spurious association - body builders tear muscle fibers in order to rebuild them stronger by repair; pianists don't. Pianists don't need 'time to recover' (unless you've just played a two-hour program of Prokofiev's War Sonatas flowed by Stravinsky's Petrushka, with Liszt's Mephisto Waltz No.1 as encore...).
Pianists develop neural and neuromuscular connections which are what develop coordination and technique. It's developing a skill, just like learning a new language - and it's something you should work on everyday. ...


A good example.... I had trained my right hand (actually both) to take a proper golf grip. Probably 99.999% of golfers don't do this. It was quite a bit of training. I never had any problem doing anything else until....you guessed it... piano. Have gone through much change in my hands. Physical change. Now, my right hand, if I try to take a proper golf grip. I experience pain.
Bear in mind also. The fingers in golf are the opposite of piano. In golf, you eliminate any control from the fingers. In piano, the control in fingers is everything.
There is quite a lot of physical adaptation in the hands in piano. Getting them to reach spreads and play in widths they never experienced before. Getting all ten fingers to play separately and together at the same time. This is quite a bit of physiological adaptation.

I also have heard of too many people on here who complain of injuries. They all should take into account rest. As well as how to train adaptation of new movement.

I agree that this ain't at all like body builders. The guy is just trying to relate to people in an obvious way. Body builders are an easy to understand example of using rest. I'm not going to knit pick on him. Please refer to my first post in this thread on what type of exercise it is. The view to approach it.

I can't agree with you that it is simply neuro and neuromuscular connections.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

Top
#2264562 - 04/20/14 01:28 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 892
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
@rnaple, actually, if any pianist/instrumentalist is experiencing any pain whatsoever, then they are doing it wrong.

The goal is not 'to [get] all ten fingers to play separately and together at the same time,' the goal is to 1) relax any muscles that you don't need given a particular motion, and 2) not to force any muscles in directions that they weren't intended to go--this is where you get into major problems.

Creating independent fingers is not about building up strength, but eliminating wasted tension elsewhere.

Top
#2264564 - 04/20/14 01:36 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: A443]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4849
Originally Posted By: A443
I don't think this is good article; there are a lot of problems with it.

The practicing everyday has already been address. Playing the piano is a skill that is mastered mentally, not physically. You don't need a break from thinking; everyone needs to THINK more.

"If I don't practice for a day, I know it. If I don't practice for two days, my wife knows it. If I don't practice for three days, the world knows it." - so Horowitz apparently said.

Though it might have been the great violinist Jascha Heifetz who first said, "If I don't practice one day, I know it; two days, the critics know it; three days, the public knows it."

Whoever said it first doesn't matter - what matters is that all musicians should be practising everyday. Even if it is only for a few minutes, if that's all the time you have to spare: it will reinforce some of what you practised the day before, and ingrain it into your neuromuscular 'memory' before it starts to fade.

If you start to feel 'stale', it's a sign that you might be getting bored with what you're playing. Every pianist (or musician) should have several pieces 'on the go' - it's never a good idea to be obsessively practising just one piece, however great that piece is. And there's nothing wrong with taking a short break from whatever you're currently learning, maybe to have a go at improvising, or just playing through again an old favorite from before. What matters is that you practise or play something at least most days, to keep your brain connected to your fingers musically and pianistically.

Top
#2264568 - 04/20/14 01:42 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: A443]
EM Deeka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/13
Posts: 148
Originally Posted By: A443
...
This is true, not a myth. The actual 'playing' of the piano does little/nothing. However, musical understanding, and thus musicianship, is greatly improved since more patterns are noticeable (i.e., vertical harmony and voice leading). It is actually SO important, that ever music university that I know of requires music majors to take keyboard skills--even onto the graduate level. Why?!? Because theory is understood, not in terms of violin performance, but how it functions on the piano. This is why violinist begrudgingly need to take keyboard classes.
..


While theory can be easily understood at the keyboard, what is an efficient method for mass producing music majors need not be the method for someone with significantly different goals.

Theory can be equally well understood on other instruments independently of the piano.

Top
#2264570 - 04/20/14 01:44 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: rnaple]
Rerun Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 583
Loc: Louisiana
Quote:
A good example.... I had trained my right hand (actually both) to take a proper golf grip. Probably 99.999% of golfers don't do this. It was quite a bit of training. I never had any problem doing anything else until....you guessed it... piano.


Give this guy a shout:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/ar...t-Sandwich.html
_________________________
Rerun

"Seat of the pants piano player" DMD







Top
#2264577 - 04/20/14 01:54 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 892
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
@EM Deeka, music theory is understood in terms of the keyboard. That is the origin of the current analytical system of organising and understanding compositional structure and relationships. Theory IS piano/keyboard. You could also develop a violin-based theory for violinist, but then there would be issues with communicating with other musicians (i.e., using different terminology). For now, we talk in terms of piano.

Do you need theory? No.
Does it help to understand how the composition was put together, especially in terms of memorisation? Yes.

BTW, I think guitarist think in a different system of relationships (i.e., they have their own theory).

Top
#2264580 - 04/20/14 02:04 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: rnaple]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4849
Originally Posted By: rnaple


Bear in mind also. The fingers in golf are the opposite of piano. In golf, you eliminate any control from the fingers. In piano, the control in fingers is everything.
There is quite a lot of physical adaptation in the hands in piano. Getting them to reach spreads and play in widths they never experienced before. Getting all ten fingers to play separately and together at the same time. This is quite a bit of physiological adaptation.

I also have heard of too many people on here who complain of injuries. They all should take into account rest. As well as how to train adaptation of new movement.

As has already been pointed out, if you experience pain playing the piano, something is wrong. (There is absolutely no similarity between playing golf and playing piano. Pro golfers get injuries frequently, and sometimes have to change the way they play. I used to get all sorts of injuries, including tennis elbow, when I was playing tennis.) Whether it's over-practising on a particular aspect, or faulty technique, or over-stretching in an attempt to play particular chords.

I've been playing since childhood (and had four teachers over the course of twelve years, until I gained my performance diploma), and have only ever experienced pain once - in the proximal finger joint of my left pinky, when I was obsessively practising the alternating octaves in Mendelssohn's Rondo capriccioso. Once I backed off from that, then went back into it a week later - without the obsessive repetitive practising of those octaves - I never had that problem again,

That is also why all serious piano students should have a teacher and learn proper technique right from the start. No teacher will advocate over-stretching to play chords etc that aren't physically possible for smaller hands, though I've heard of stride pianists who appear to believe that 'stretching exercises' is the way to enable them to play otherwise impossible 12ths. Every hand is different, and you have to work within the physical limitations of what you've got. (BTW, I can barely stretch to a 10th in my RH, and can play 10ths in LH only with 'preparation', yet have no problem with Rachmaninoff et al - what I cannot reach, I roll).

Top
#2264586 - 04/20/14 02:13 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
Ritzycat Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 150
As someone who is starting to re-learn the piano again, I am very good at memorization but not so good at learning new technical fingerings / scales, etc.

I play a variety of pieces of different style that focus on chords, scales, fingerings etc. I've been playing a lot of that Mozart Sonata in C k545, Clementi Sonatina, Chorale theme from Jupiter, Fur Elise, etc. They are fairly simple technical-wise and a lot of repetition and I get a full practice of arpeggios, scales, and chords in all of these pieces. I play through them a few times every day since I can't stand playing scales.

I think there is a hormetic effect to overplaying warmups and scales and whatnot. It's better to play songs that actually apply these concepts then you can move onto more difficult pieces. When I first got this book full of classical non-reduced piano songs, I only had the courage to approach the clementi sonatina but now I've been able to at least attempt certain pieces now. Take what I say with a grain of salt though since I'm still in the learning process.

Top
#2264587 - 04/20/14 02:14 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: A443]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1986
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: A443
@rnaple, actually, if any pianist/instrumentalist is experiencing any pain whatsoever, then they are doing it wrong....


Not necessarily. I repeat....necessarily. Yes you can be right, with some. We're talking in a beginners forum. Many are doing movements in their hands they have never done before. Many will try to keep doing the same movement too much. That leads to a very quick overuse injury.
I am only a little over a year into serious practice, with a teacher. I went through pain a bunch. Had a bunch of change to take place, physically in my hands. I was doing things right. I just couldn't do very much of something until I had pain. Why? The change taking place. The solution my teacher used was to keep switching what I was practicing. I was playing all kinds of stuff. Didn't matter what. Just as long as it changed what my fingers were doing. It worked. I also included compensatory movements. As well as joint mobility. Warming up. Also smart use of rest...changing the amount I practiced each day. Otherwise known in athletics as "cycles". Yes I still agree in everyday practice. It all had to come together to work. The result? Now I get pain with a proper golf grip....doh! Don't matter. I haven't played golf in 15 years and don't want to anymore either.
If you want to find the muscles for your fingers. Take your opposite hand and grab the forearm of the other hand. Move that hand's fingers. You can feel with the opposite hand the movement of the muscles in the forearm for the fingers. smile

You ever wonder about carpal tunnel syndrome in people typing? It is overuse injury. They aren't typing wrong. It's overuse. They need compensatory movements to overcome that. They just keep doing the same thing all the time. It leads to injury.

One of the best examples of overuse injury I know of is in runners. Many of them will go out and do the same run everyday. Same distance. Same speed. Everything the same. They aren't running wrong. They just keep doing the same everyday. They end up with an injury and wonder why? Why is they don't ever change anything!
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

Top
#2264593 - 04/20/14 02:32 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: rnaple]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4849
Originally Posted By: rnaple

You ever wonder about carpal tunnel syndrome in people typing? It is overuse injury. They aren't typing wrong. It's overuse. They need compensatory movements to overcome that. They just keep doing the same thing all the time. It leads to injury.

One of the best examples of overuse injury I know of is in runners. Many of them will go out and do the same run everyday. Same distance. Same speed. Everything the same. They aren't running wrong. They just keep doing the same everyday. They end up with an injury and wonder why? Why is they don't ever change anything!


I think you're confusing CTS with tenosynovitis. The latter is usually resolved by avoidance of the repetitive movements that caused the problem, but CTS almost always requires decompression surgery eventually.

As for runners, being one myself (with five marathons and hundreds of shorter races under my belt), I know that there are many people who aren't biomechanically suited to such a repetitive and high-impact activity, and have to compromise. (I'm excluding the overweight, who will have higher risk of injuries with any weight-bearing, high-impact activity, but have the means to do something about it). There are many who run obsessively - the same route, the same distance, the same pace - every day and never get injured. And others who get injured just as soon as they push their pace or run beyond a certain mileage.

As I said before, you have to work with what you've got, and there're certain things you cannot change.....

Top
#2264606 - 04/20/14 03:00 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: A443]
EM Deeka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/13
Posts: 148
Originally Posted By: A443
@EM Deeka, music theory is understood in terms of the keyboard. That is the origin of the current analytical system of organising and understanding compositional structure and relationships. Theory IS piano/keyboard. You could also develop a violin-based theory for violinist, but then there would be issues with communicating with other musicians (i.e., using different terminology). For now, we talk in terms of piano.

BTW, I think guitarist think in a different system of relationships (i.e., they have their own theory).


While music theory can easily be visualised on a piano, Music Theory is not different for guitar or violin !! And certainly "Theory IS NOT piano/keyboard"

Top
#2264612 - 04/20/14 03:08 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: rnaple]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11579
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: rnaple

Bear in mind also. The fingers in golf are the opposite of piano. In golf, you eliminate any control from the fingers. In piano, the control in fingers is everything.

Actually .... that view might actually explain your pain in piano playing, because in piano, trying to put control into the fingers is precisely the thing that can create problems. I have spent over a year retraining from "fingery" playing to allowing the entire body to work together. There is a type of "eliminating control from the fingers" (in a sense) in piano too. smile

Top
#2264617 - 04/20/14 03:17 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 892
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
@EM Deeka, I'm not sure what your level of understanding is, but let me break this down for you.

1. Composers compose whatever they want.
2. Theorists then come along--after the fact--and try to figure out ways to explain and organize different musical ideas, from different composers, throughout time.

Theory is not a set of rules used by composers; music theory is NOT this grand unifying concept that then allows you to understand music. In fact, if you study western music and theory in France, Germany, Japan, and the US, there will be slight differences in the thought process--which is somewhat based on their own composers and their contributions. Nonetheless, this is all based on keyboard so that musicians have a common vocabulary.

From an ethnomusicological standpoint, western theory--which is keyboard based--doesn't apply...so other approaches for understanding are developed.

I didn't say that violin theory is different than piano theory: I said that violinist are taught to understand music in terms of piano theory--there is a substantial difference.

Top
#2264622 - 04/20/14 03:31 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: rnaple]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 892
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: rnaple
You ever wonder about carpal tunnel syndrome in people typing? It is overuse injury. They aren't typing wrong. It's overuse. They need compensatory movements to overcome that. They just keep doing the same thing all the time. It leads to injury.


Your statement is incorrect. People get injured by expecting the wrong parts of their body to do the wrong kinds of movement, and THAT is exactly what leads to injury. Our bodies are, in fact, designed to do the same movement repetitively all the time--as long as it is in the direction of how they are intended to function/move. This is how the bodybuilder analogy can/could apply to a new pianist that has perhaps never made those movements before. In typing, people get injured by turning/twisting their wrist to the right/left and stretch-out in the wrong direction with, for example, their pinky. Don't do that, and you can type all day without any pain. Just as pianists--who really know what they are doing--can practice all day without any tension or pain.

In terms of running, perhaps we should all take more time to just watch people do it: MOST people have no idea how to walk, let alone run! So, yeah, they are going to inure themselves easily: stupidity runneth over.

Top
#2264630 - 04/20/14 03:58 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
Pathbreaker Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1036
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: evamar
Not sure this has already been mentioned here, but I quite enjoyed reading it... it actually put some of my worries at rest.

http://www.davidnevue.com/pianomyths.htm



This is definitely a great read. I'm sure there are parts that could be debated but I think the general point is quite helpful in conveying that piano playing is a marathon and it's about the journey, not the destination. The last time I tried to make myself awesome in 24 hours I just got myself hurt.

The article also seems aimed at the typically neurotic adult learner and the misconception that there are hard rules on age and practice time that must be followed.

Top
#2264634 - 04/20/14 04:19 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 892
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
@EM Deeka, I'd like to share another aspect of music theory.

If we were to develop a music theory for violinists--for example--there would be significant emphasis/analysis of how/when notes are raise/lowered to fit their implied harmonic or melodic function. This is something that string players need to be aware of all the time and make adjustment for (i.e., string players have a different sense of just and dissonant intervals that differs from piano). This is not analysed in typical theory classes or analyses--because music theory is keyboard based and doesn't have that ability.

I think I've gone way beyond the scope of the topic, so I'll digress...

Top
#2264654 - 04/20/14 05:33 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: A443]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11579
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: A443
@\
From an ethnomusicological standpoint, western theory--which is keyboard based--doesn't apply...so other approaches for understanding are developed.

I do not believe that western theory is "keyboard-based". Keyboards got their configuration because of how western music had already developed - which btw was done mostly along voice. A keyboard is very handy for exploring theory or sounding things out, though these days programs such as Finale can allow us to do the same thing, but it is possible to study theory without a keyboard. The keyboard reflects theory - it did not create it.

Quote:
I didn't say that violin theory is different than piano theory: I said that violinist are taught to understand music in terms of piano theory--there is a substantial difference.

There is no such thing as "piano theory" or "violin theory". When violin students study theory, they learn such things as rudiments and harmony theory. Each instrument gives us a unique angle to music, however. Wind instruments will create a keen awareness of the harmonic series, and if you play a transposing instrument you have that to work with. Violin involves fifths everywhere.

I think that what is taught as "piano theory" is actually ordinary theory which is geared toward piano students.

Top
#2264661 - 04/20/14 06:00 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 892
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
LOL...having studied and researched this (i.e., violin performance, musicology, ethnomusicology, theory, piano etc.) for over a decade at the university level, I was attempting to explain how and why the currently used western system of theory is--in fact--keyboard based.

Prior to keyboard theory, as keystring alludes to, there was a different system that was--in fact--based more on voice! It's called now called counterpoint or species theory. It's primarily a voice leading theory to understand horizontal note movement and direction. Just as there are many ways of thinking about music, there are also many kinds of theoretical analyses. Schenkerian analysis--another music theory people study in school--is more paper-based (i.e., not exactly keyboard based).

You have to understand: "music theory" is simply a method of recognizing and organizing musical patterns.

Music theory for traditional Chinese instruments is not understood in terms of western theory, because western theory is keyboard based, their evolution is not; their origin and musical history is completely different. Trying to use western theory--or a keyboard understanding--makes no sense at all.

Top
#2264665 - 04/20/14 06:21 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: evamar]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11579
Loc: Canada
The keyboard reflects the structure of Western music. But that music is not based on the keyboard. The "LOL" makes no sense. Additionally, quite a few people on this board have extensive studies in music.
Quote:
It's called counterpoint or species theory. It's primarily a voice leading theory to understand note movement and direction.

At best, calling counterpoint "voice leading theory" would be confusing to anyone who is unfamiliar with it.

Anyway, Western music is not based on a single musical instrument.

Top
#2264681 - 04/20/14 07:11 PM Re: Piano Learning Myths... [Re: keystring]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 892
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: keystring
Anyway, Western music is not based on a single musical instrument.


That statement is why there is confusion on this discussion. No one said that western music is based on the piano/keyboard. If that is what you heard in your head when reading these posts, then that is why there was a misunderstanding on this point.

Let me say it another way: we use the keyboard as a tool in which to understand the harmonic motion of western music.

If you want to better understand an orchestra piece, you can use harmonic analysis (i.e., to think of it in terms of the keyboard)--which is common practice when taking conducting courses. But, that is only one piece of the puzzle. Again, this is another reason why "music theory" [or more correctly: harmonic analysis] is a keyboard based understanding...or, a way of thinking about music.

The LOL was literal: I laughed-out-loud. If you don't think harmonic analysis (aka music theory) is keyboard based, then explain why, and we can discuss.

Besides, when is it, exactly, that you think "music theory/harmonic analysis" came into existence? I'll give you a hint: it was LONG after most of the music was written! Harmonic analysis is essentially a mid-19th century study. This approach to the study of music uses the keyboard as a tool to explain what is going on in music.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
146 registered (Art_Vandelay, Atrys, accordeur, ajames, AndreiN, 39 invisible), 1856 Guests and 14 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75584 Members
42 Forums
156284 Topics
2295261 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Music competitions are rife with corruption says JLWebbr
by pianoloverus
07/30/14 02:51 PM
Midi support removed from OS X?
by fizikisto
07/30/14 02:41 PM
Some interesting finds in a museum visit today!
by LarryShone
07/30/14 01:06 PM
Help with a Bluthner
by Classicalist
07/30/14 12:54 PM
Yamaha DGX650 - looking for an alternative! Need advice
by Karinioza
07/30/14 11:51 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission