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#2263543 - 04/18/14 01:51 PM Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Major
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 360
Loc: India
This is one of my all time favourite pieces of music and I wish to do it justice, so I'm starting this as a long term project.

Which are the most technically challenging measures? I would like to start with these first.
What sort of techniques would I need to develop in order to not butcher this piece?


Edited by noobpianist90 (04/18/14 09:53 PM)

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#2263562 - 04/18/14 02:28 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: noobpianist90]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Sorry, I've never heard of this piece.
_________________________
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Polyphonist

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#2263569 - 04/18/14 02:35 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: noobpianist90]
MarkH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 855
Loc: Seattle, WA
Poly is being snotty because the piece is in D-flat major.

The piece as a whole is difficult, but I imagine it should seem pretty obvious to you that the hardest measures are the ones that sound the hardest - 51 & 52.
_________________________
Currently Studying: Bach - English Suite No. 5; Beethoven - Op. 27 No. 1; Chopin - Op. 27 No. 1; Chopin - 3rd Scherzo

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#2263571 - 04/18/14 02:37 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: noobpianist90]
Batuhan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 875
Loc: Istanbul
learn etude op 25 no 6 first it would help


Edited by Batuhan (04/18/14 02:37 PM)
_________________________
Sorry for my English, I know it sucks, but I'm trying to improve.

Published:
Waltz Op. 36 No. 1 in G-flat major,
2 Preludes, Op. 12 in D-flat major.

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#2263574 - 04/18/14 02:45 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: Batuhan]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Batuhan
learn etude op 25 no 6 first it would help

That's not necessary.
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Polyphonist

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#2263577 - 04/18/14 02:46 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: MarkH]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: MarkH
Poly is being snotty because the piece is in D-flat major.

Don't you think someone should know that if they're trying to learn it?
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Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2263580 - 04/18/14 02:51 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: Polyphonist]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 982
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

Don't you think someone should know that if they're trying to learn it?

You could have made the OP aware of the fact instead of saying something so snide to an innocent poster. You really are a lonely loser with nothing better to do than troll honest persons in the internet. Pathetic.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2263786 - 04/18/14 08:47 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: noobpianist90]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 360
Loc: India
Ouch!
I was sleepy and didn't think while posting it. My bad.

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#2263792 - 04/18/14 08:50 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: Atrys]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 360
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: Atrys
You could have made the OP aware of the fact instead of saying something so snide to an innocent poster.
Ah, don't worry about it. At least he's made sure I won't forget now grin

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#2263868 - 04/18/14 11:20 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: noobpianist90]
TwoSnowflakes Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1139
It's a pretty hard nocturne, despite starting out so gently.

If I recall correctly, you're self-taught, yes? And also fairly new, yes?

You might want to start with another nocturne to give you a more manageable toe-dip into Chopin. There's just so much to get comfortable with. There's this deep, sonorous foundation, the tempo give and take, and then you also have to be ready to deploy lovely lightness on the top at any moment--little runs, ornaments, flourishes. And there's the, uh, melody that has to sing out perfectly all the time. Weren't you the one asking about what "cantabile" means a little while back? So lots to do at once--so many elements to keep working together. The harder ones layer all of this on quite thick, with more than one voice going at once, and you don't want to be trying to fighting so hard technically that you can't experiment with what it takes to make a Chopin melody sing. Certainly not worrying about making two Chopin melodies sing.

I might pick one where the major issues are melody over a fairly manageable bass accompaniment, and see how it shapes up for you in terms of really working on that cantabile and essential rubato. It's so, so important and so, so hard to learn and execute well when there's too much else going on. There are only three I've even permitted myself to work on: C minor Posthumous, C# minor Posthumous, and Op. 72, No 1. There's so much more for me to do with them, but what's nice about them is that they're the most accessible in terms of getting to a place of moderate competence. It's only then that you can dig into what makes Chopin Chopin. Something I really hope I can start doing myself soon!

Think of it as investment in Op. 27. You'll need every last skill you learn with the other ones to play Op. 27, so it won't be time wasted. Plus, if you like Op. 27 so much, you won't be disappointed with any of them. The only thing better than some Chopin, is more Chopin. Well, usually. smile

Good luck!


Edited by TwoSnowflakes (04/18/14 11:28 PM)
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suites, No. 3 BWV 814
Brahms, Op. 118 No. 2 Intermezzo A major
Chopin, Mazurka Op. 67 No.4
With the pedal I love to meddle; When Paderewski comes this way... -Irving Berlin

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#2263880 - 04/19/14 12:07 AM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: noobpianist90]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 360
Loc: India
Thank you TwoSnowflakes.

I have learned the Posthumous Nocturne in C sharp minor, The E flat major Nocturne op.9 No. 2 (still needs a bit of work) and the Prelude op. 20 No. 7 and I'm currently learning the Mazurka in A minor, Op. 67 No. 4.

I'm not actually new to the piano though, I've been playing for a while, but started taking it seriously fairly recently.

Yes, it is definitely an investment, and well worth the effort no doubt, but I guess you're right. If I'm not ready for the piece, it might do more damage than good. Hmmm...

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#2264266 - 04/19/14 07:20 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: noobpianist90]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2137
Loc: Canada
There are some bars which have some finger-y challenges (like that bar with 48 notes in the RH), or double notes and various amounts of trills. But I think keeping the left hand pattern even, soft, supportive, and atmospheric is a real challenge in this piece.

I'm trying to move away from playing so much Chopin (starting to get tired of his stuff), but I can imagine myself learning this piece one day.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

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#2264280 - 04/19/14 07:40 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: Kuanpiano]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 360
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
But I think keeping the left hand pattern even, soft, supportive, and atmospheric is a real challenge in this piece.
Yes I agree. I started working at measures 51 and 52 hands separately.

Quote:
starting to get tired of his stuff
Blasphemy! :P

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#2264282 - 04/19/14 07:44 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
I'm trying to move away from playing so much Chopin (starting to get tired of his stuff), but I can imagine myself learning this piece one day.

Do I what do. Write a yearly goal list with balanced repertoire from multiple composers. That way you can't overdo too much of one guy.

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#2264355 - 04/19/14 10:55 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: noobpianist90]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2137
Loc: Canada
I have to play a lot of concerts every year...so I think I get a good variety. I haven't done that much Chopin, but after doing Op. 39, 48, 52,53,54 and 58 I think I've played enough of him for now. I have long term projects, and other stuff which turns up. I think it works out alright in terms of balance. I'd like to play more modern composers (trying to find some time for Vine and Tuur).

Back to the OP, I think if you put a lot of work into your shading, this piece will help make you a very polished musician!
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

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#2264483 - 04/20/14 07:31 AM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: Polyphonist]
Frankni Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/13
Posts: 148
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: MarkH
Poly is being snotty because the piece is in D-flat major.

Don't you think someone should know that if they're trying to learn it?


Not at all, I have played and play hundreds of pieces. Do you think I care about learning all their tag-numbers by heart? I would know these pieces if I heard them, that is more important, and if I need to know their ipc I will look in the book, or google it. Learning all the Kochels, Hoboken, BWVs and what have you by heart is among the same type of useless brainfiller as knowing who shot what goal in the European cup quarter finals between South-Tyrol and Poland at June 23, 1964. I swear those people exist. They are not quite unlike us.
_________________________
Yamaha C3, Sauter Delta 185

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#2264485 - 04/20/14 07:38 AM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: Kuanpiano]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 360
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Back to the OP, I think if you put a lot of work into your shading, this piece will help make you a very polished musician!


Yes, I plan to work thoroughly on it. I'm not looking to get it done quickly. So, yeah...

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#2264486 - 04/20/14 07:39 AM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: JoelW]
Frankni Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/13
Posts: 148
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: JoelW
That way you can't overdo too much of one guy.


Maybe try a girl instead! As they say in Holland: "Verandering van spijs doet eten" (which loosely translates as : Changing the dish makes you eat). But you still need to know how to operate fork and knife. Or chop sticks for that matter (I am in China atm).


Edited by Frankni (04/20/14 07:39 AM)
_________________________
Yamaha C3, Sauter Delta 185

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#2264495 - 04/20/14 08:15 AM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: Frankni]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7784
Originally Posted By: Frankni
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: MarkH
Poly is being snotty because the piece is in D-flat major.

Don't you think someone should know that if they're trying to learn it?


Not at all, I have played and play hundreds of pieces. Do you think I care about learning all their tag-numbers by heart?


But the key signature isn't the equivalent of "tag-numbers", it's an intrinsic part of the piece.

Okay, now that that is out of my system, I'll say that I've made the same kind of major/minor key identification mistake here, and lived to tell the tale. And further, I'll say that consciously remembering the key of a piece isn't a priority for me - that information is often so far down in my subconscious that I just am not aware of it.

And too, in a good number of pieces, the key identification is somewhat arbitrary. It might make an interesting thread for the technically-minded folks here - how do you know what key a piece is really "in" when there a many shifts within it, and it doesn't end in the key in which it began?

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#2264519 - 04/20/14 10:25 AM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: wr]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 780
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Frankni
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: MarkH
Poly is being snotty because the piece is in D-flat major.

Don't you think someone should know that if they're trying to learn it?


Not at all, I have played and play hundreds of pieces. Do you think I care about learning all their tag-numbers by heart?


But the key signature isn't the equivalent of "tag-numbers", it's an intrinsic part of the piece.

Okay, now that that is out of my system, I'll say that I've made the same kind of major/minor key identification mistake here, and lived to tell the tale. And further, I'll say that consciously remembering the key of a piece isn't a priority for me - that information is often so far down in my subconscious that I just am not aware of it.

And too, in a good number of pieces, the key identification is somewhat arbitrary. It might make an interesting thread for the technically-minded folks here - how do you know what key a piece is really "in" when there a many shifts within it, and it doesn't end in the key in which it began?


Keys are signposts along the journey which pale in comparison to the journey itself.


Edited by prout (04/20/14 10:25 AM)

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#2264589 - 04/20/14 02:21 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: noobpianist90]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17923
Loc: Victoria, BC
All this about knowing Kochel numbers, Hoboken numbers, Opus numbers and so on may be secondary information that one need not have at one's finger tips. However, if the piece in question is one that one is currently working on, it seems to be good practice - pun intended - to know what key it's in.

It's akin to driving and not knowing - or just choosing to ignore - what traffic signs mean!
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#2264677 - 04/20/14 06:51 PM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: BruceD]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7784
Originally Posted By: BruceD
All this about knowing Kochel numbers, Hoboken numbers, Opus numbers and so on may be secondary information that one need not have at one's finger tips. However, if the piece in question is one that one is currently working on, it seems to be good practice - pun intended - to know what key it's in.

It's akin to driving and not knowing - or just choosing to ignore - what traffic signs mean!


I have to disagree with that analogy - one can observe the sharps or flats of the key signature without knowing the name of the key. My first teacher never taught me the keys or circle of fifths, so for my first eight years of playing classical piano, I didn't know what key a piece was in. But I could still play Beethoven sonatas and Bach toccatas.

Once I did learn how to identify the key of a piece, it didn't make any noticeable difference in my understanding of the music. It was only when I acquired enough theory to gain an intellectual understanding of the basics of musical structure did it really begin to matter.

I am, of course, not arguing that one shouldn't learn the keys and how to identify them right away, but just that it's certainly possible to play a piece, and play it well, without having that information in the forefront of your mind. YMMV

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#2264830 - 04/21/14 04:25 AM Re: Questions about Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No. 2 in D Flat Minor [Re: BruceD]
Frankni Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/13
Posts: 148
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: BruceD
All this about knowing Kochel numbers, Hoboken numbers, Opus numbers and so on may be secondary information that one need not have at one's finger tips. However, if the piece in question is one that one is currently working on, it seems to be good practice - pun intended - to know what key it's in.

It's akin to driving and not knowing - or just choosing to ignore - what traffic signs mean!


Yes, the key is important (mind you, some Bach preludes in WTK were written in two different keys), but the key you find at the beginning of the piece in the score itself. The number-this-and-that is just list number made up by a posthumous person, and these lists were sometimes organised on questionable grounds anyway. I am sure Mozart himself didn't know the KV numbers of his compositions. But I am sure he could play them well, and remember them in another way than through a numbering system. And I have no doubt he could turn them into any key if requested to do so.


Edited by Frankni (04/21/14 04:26 AM)
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