Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 5 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#2269489 - 05/01/14 08:21 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Yee-Haa - Mark is becoming another Pro-UT !!!


Marty, bite your tongue. "Turn away from the light. Don't follow the light."


....................
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
(ad PTG 568) Win a Year Journal Subscription
PTG 57th Annual Convention - Atlanta
#2269497 - 05/01/14 08:36 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Minnesota Marty]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 725
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Yee-Haa - Mark is becoming another Pro-UT !!!


Marty, bite your tongue. "Turn away from the light. Don't follow the light."


....................


Follow me, and I will make you tuners of notes.

Prout

Top
#2269588 - 05/01/14 11:39 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 725
Just to set the record straight. I have had my piano in Young, (as well as Vallotti, Werckmeister III, for fun) for the last year or so until my wife said she had had enough and wanted something less strong so she could transpose as necessary. Those were easy to tune, so I thought I would try ET, knowing it was the hardest of all. I figure once I can set it well (after a decade or so of practice) I would try Bill 's temperament or a late victorian style.

Top
#2270057 - 05/02/14 08:12 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: That Tooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: That Tooner


So many technicians have told me they have never encountered a piano that had been tuned in Reverse Well but nobody seems to recognize it when it is right there. Sure, it has bad unisons too and it is really bad over all but the foundation for this really bad tuning is none other than Reverse Well.

I didn't tune it and I didn't make the video. I have never even seen this piano but the young man who did wondered if what he was hearing was what I had been talking about, so he made the video.

Then again, I suppose the claim could be made that it was ET and it just morphed itself into the way it is now. It is ET because according to the TV documentary that was displayed on here, according to Stuart Isacoff's book and just about any other source that one may read, all pianos have been tuned in ET since the time of J.S. Bach.

Since there never has been any such thing as Well Temperament or if there was, so few people ever used it that it did not deserve any mention in any books or documentaries, this video must be an example of ET.

It is ET because the person who tuned it used a 4ths & 5ths sequence from a book that told him how to tune ET. He thought it was ET and he intended it to be ET, so therefore it must be ET. He had never heard of such a thing as Reverse Well, so it could not be that.

If what people have said on here is correct, this tuning is perfectly fine because there are no effects from Well Temperament that are significant, so there must not be any effects from the way the piano in this video was tuned that make any difference to the music played on it either.

The school where the piano is paid for the tuning that you hear in this video. The Band Director accepted it as a piano tuning and assumed that the temperament was ET, so all things considered, it must be ET. The gentleman from Tokyo says that it is a fact that virtually all pianos are tuned in ET with few exceptions. One frequent poster on this forum claims that 99.9% of pianos in the entire world over are tuned in ET. That is a statistic which is absolutely certain, so the piano in this video must be in ET.

If an untruth is told often enough and is repeated virtually everywhere, people in general accept it as the truth. So there it is, folks! The piano in this video is tuned in ET!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2270160 - 05/02/14 12:10 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21306
Loc: Oakland
It is no wonder that people cannot get their around temperament when there are people like Mr. Bremmer "explaining" it!

Maybe we need to go back to the basics:

"Tempering" means "softening." People get confused because "tempered steel" is steel which has been hardened, and then softened. There is soft steel that has not been hardened. There is hard steel that has not been tempered. Tempering is a method of obtaining a specific amount of softness in hardened steel.

In music, "tempering" refers to methods of dividing the octave into a specific number of fixed tones. In Western music, it is usually 12 notes.

Just intonation, dividing the octave into pure intervals from one specified tone, results in some harsh intervals which beat rapidly. Tempering softens those intervals.

Many instruments are capable of playing varying tones which are not fixed. They do not have a specific temperament.

Examples of instruments which have temperaments are keyboard instruments; xylophones, vibraphones, and marimbas; fretted stringed instruments like guitars, mandolins, and banjos; harps and ocarinas. Many of these instruments cannot be tuned particularly accurately. Somehow, people manage without worrying very much about their temperament.

The fact that these instruments can play together even though their temperaments may be different shows that temperament is not such a big deal.

Temperament is not the only explanation for a poorly tuned piano. It is not the only thing one needs to be able to cope with when tuning a piano.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2270168 - 05/02/14 12:24 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1072
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
+1. Succinct and clear, with appropriate perspective. A gem of knowledge for any beginning tuner.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2270171 - 05/02/14 12:26 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: BDB]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: BDB
"Tempering" means "softening."

Sorry, I don't agree with this definition.

"Tempering" means "Adjusting" or "Modifying."

In metallurgy, it specifically means "Hardening."
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2270172 - 05/02/14 12:30 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21306
Loc: Oakland
ORIGIN Old English temprian‘bring something into the required condition by mixing it with something else,’ from Latin temperare ‘mingle, restrain oneself.’ Sense development was probably influenced by Old French temprer ‘to temper, moderate.'
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2270177 - 05/02/14 12:33 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Etymology may be interesting, but, "tempering" doesn't mean "softening."
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2270183 - 05/02/14 12:48 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21306
Loc: Oakland
Well, I will just let others decide whether the definition is apt or not, particularly at the time that the usage was adopted, and more importantly, whether questioning it impedes understanding the subject.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2270322 - 05/02/14 06:16 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Tunewerk]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
Mr. Fujita, thanks for your comprehensive and logical approach.

It saddens me to see this vitriol and complete misunderstanding concerning temperament. The more misinformed opinions spout, the more confused young ones in the world, trying to learn, will become.

Temperament is not a difficult issue to understand, aside from the dire lack of scholarly input. This wash of incorrect explanation does make it nearly impossible to penetrate.

Fixed tone solutions which rely on one rate of curvature for tuning (all keyboard instruments) will never have all intervals in tune. But this is simply a resolution problem! Equal temperaments such as 53-TET allow almost all common intervals to be pure. Infinite resolution or fluid pitch can achieve purity everywhere!

Mathematicians understand this. Physicists know that exact whole number ratios have little to do with pure intervals because of a concept called bandwidth on real instruments.

Unequal temperament is beautiful testament to variable tone solutions on a fixed tone instrument. Equal temperament on our modern instruments became a beautiful solution only because of increased bandwidth, increased inharmonicity and the scientific understanding needed to apply it.

Over matters of art and taste, what is the point of argument?


I agree, misinformation doesn’t help.

...“Fixed tone solutions which rely on one rate of curvature for tuning (all keyboard instruments) will never have all intervals in tune. But this is simply a resolution problem! Equal temperaments such as 53-TET allow almost all common intervals to be pure. Infinite resolution or fluid pitch can achieve purity everywhere!”...

Let’s treat the resolution problem later; from the above, it might be understood that “in tune” can only be referred to “pure” intervals. Yes, in early days the idea of “consonance” was related with “non-beating” intervals, but – careful - “in tune” does not mean “beatless”. As an evidence, today we understand and appreciate dissonant intervals, and dissonance too can, in turn, sound “in tune” or not.

...”Mathematicians understand this.”...

True, but Mathematicians of the past were asked to keep the octave in a 2:1 ratio, and perhaps (I guess) not being familiar with actual beat-curves, they only worked onto the scale numerical values. In those terms, with those constraints, there was no solution.

...”Physicists know that exact whole number ratios have little to do with pure intervals because of a concept called bandwidth on real instruments.”...

True, “whole number ratios” work as a “representation”.

...”Unequal temperament is beautiful testament to variable tone solutions on a fixed tone instrument.”...

Yes, there is something “beautiful” about UTs testament, “how” they slowly shaped the tonal scale.

...”Equal temperament on our modern instruments became a beautiful solution only because of increased bandwidth, increased inharmonicity and the scientific understanding needed to apply it.”...

If possible, remember to put an 'IMO'. Tuning an 1802 Cabinet, to me, made no difference, albeit it wasn't 12th root of two. All in all, I would re-word that sentence.


...”Over matters of art and taste, what is the point of argument?”

Hmmm..., IMO talking about “art” doesn’t make the whole subject more comprehensible, and yes, “..taste..”, I look forward to listening to your favorite tuning, all intervals in a slow chromatic succession.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2270350 - 05/02/14 07:37 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/14
Posts: 431
Loc: Northern CA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

If an untruth is told often enough and is repeated virtually everywhere, people in general accept it as the truth.



A fantastic and very eccentric 80-something year old pianist, Russell Sherman, gave a master and delivered one of his many charmingly whimsical axioms:

"Tradition, after all, is nothing more than the memory of a bad performance."
_________________________
Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci

Top
#2270811 - 05/04/14 02:34 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1072
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I think any comment on that recording of a "temperament" being anything but out of tune, is reaching for meaning where none exists. That was just a bad tuning.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2270813 - 05/04/14 02:38 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1072
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
BTW Marty, when I read your post, I was BLINDED BY THE LIGHT.

That's not yelling, that's the title of a song, I was singing it. BTW, if CAPS mean yelling, what keyboard technique means "singing", hmmm? Gotchu there there, didn't I? Right back atcha!
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2270869 - 05/04/14 08:34 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
BTW Marty, when I read your post, I was BLINDED BY THE LIGHT.

That's not yelling, that's the title of a song, I was singing it. BTW, if CAPS mean yelling, what keyboard technique means "singing", hmmm? Gotchu there there, didn't I? Right back atcha!

Oh, this has me giggling with my morning coffee. Good one, Mark!

Just as the next line in the song is one of the most misunderstood in all of rock literature, so goes the reading of many a thread in this forum. Or, "many a poor lad" if we are at the "House of the Rising Sun."

BTW Mark, you don't happen to own a Farfisa, do you?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2271197 - 05/04/14 11:12 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I think any comment on that recording of a "temperament" being anything but out of tune, is reaching for meaning where none exists. That was just a bad tuning.


Mark, that is Reverse Well, plain and simple. I really have no idea why anyone would deny that. There is a reason why the temperament ended up being the way it is. If you think that it is just a random example, then you don't know what you don't know and that goes for anyone else who may think the same thing. I know what the reason is. I know what the entire foundation for it is. You had it posted on your website but I am happy to see that you took it down. That was a good move on your part.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2271211 - 05/05/14 12:27 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21306
Loc: Oakland
I am pretty sure this is classic reverse well temperament:

_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2271228 - 05/05/14 01:16 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1072
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Sorry, I haven't taken anything off the site. What are you referring to?

Although, maybe I did take it off but didn't know it, since I don't know what I don't know and if I didn't know it was taken off and it was, then I wouldn't know, know?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2271231 - 05/05/14 01:19 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1072
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
BTW Marty, when I read your post, I was BLINDED BY THE LIGHT.

That's not yelling, that's the title of a song, I was singing it. BTW, if CAPS mean yelling, what keyboard technique means "singing", hmmm? Gotchu there there, didn't I? Right back atcha!

Oh, this has me giggling with my morning coffee. Good one, Mark!

Just as the next line in the song is one of the most misunderstood in all of rock literature, so goes the reading of many a thread in this forum. Or, "many a poor lad" if we are at the "House of the Rising Sun."

BTW Mark, you don't happen to own a Farfisa, do you?


A who-what?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2271622 - 05/05/14 09:05 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
That Tooner Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 56
Loc: Janesville WI
It seems like the recording is Reverse Well.
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

Top
#2271635 - 05/05/14 09:56 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: BDB]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2041
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: BDB
I am pretty sure this is classic reverse well temperament:
... video available above..

You're good! After seeing this I remembered ... I've GOT to take some pepto tonight.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

Top
#2272124 - 05/07/14 12:04 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
After conversing for a while with the young student from near my area who asked me if the video he made was Reverse Well or not, I prompted him to display it here and ask if it was ET? It got the expected responses. It was bad, yes but it was not Reverse Well, in the opinion of any of the respondents because no such thing exists in the minds of people who believe in one temperament and one temperament only: ET!

So, here is the conclusion that I gather from all of the above discussion. I give my permission freely to anyone who wants to write a book or make a video on the subject. It is all conventional wisdom and so it should rightly be in the public domain and therefore, anyone is free to use this information and distribute it as being common knowledge and the absolute truth:

ET was invented by J. S. Bach (even though there had been some previous historical dabbling with the idea, it was good old J. S. Bach who really invented it as a practical matter), and ever since Bach wrote the wonderful music that was unfortunately named, "Well-Tempered" when it should have been called, "Equally Tempered", (the two terms are completely synonymous) to show how great it was, all music has ever since been in ET, created in ET and only made possible by ET.

Yes, there had been unfortunately something before the one and only glorious ET that was known as a Historical Temperament. Something called MEANtone! It was extremely restrictive and it allowed people to play in only a few keys. If anyone dared to try to play in any of the other keys, the only result would have been howling wolves and blood curdling dissonances that would make your skin crawl! People lived in fear during those times of ever venturing beyond just a few keys! If they had tried, they would have been bitten by a howling wolf that lurked outside of their very narrow realm!

For centuries on end, all music was confined to these narrow parameters. It kept mostly any music confined to sacred music of which only the Catholic Church approved. Any sour sounding accidental thrown in there would have sent you to the inquisition!

Nevertheless, there were people who had some courage to explore and found that with voices, singers could actually sing in ways that defied the very rigid restraints that the Catholic Church had imposed upon all music.

Yes, it took a Lutheran like good old J.S. Bach to set us free! One day, J.S. Bach just came up with this one particular idea, independently of any previous mere theories about it and invented ET! Pythagoras, the ancient Chinese, none of whom had a piano like Bach did (that he tuned by himself) could have ever realized the wonder that Bach actually did, all by himself!

That is what everyone wants to believe and everyone in any music school has been taught, so let's just let it prevail!

But here is the consequence of that which I encounter so often an did again today:

http://youtu.be/R-A2iHbikgQ

Is that ET? I bet BDB thinks it is! He would send out another pink elephant video if you said you didn't think it is ET! I bet nobody who thinks in terms of ET only thinks it matters if they don't think it is ET. If it isn't ET, then it it isn't anything at all. It doesn't matter! There would be no reason or any kind of foundation behind exactly why C major would ever be the very worst sounding key. It would all have occurred at random!

Yet, in the extreme pursuit of ET, even 1/1000 of a half step off of ET would be significant and would ruin any music played in it!

It is only anecdotal evidence anyway and proves nothing! No amount of such anecdotal evidence that Reverse Well exists and is actually more common than ET would ever prove that it exists at all! You can't tell anything at all from any piano any more than a few hours after it has been tuned! Pianos naturally have certain notes that go sharp and others that go flat! So, any displays of what seem to be Reverse Well have only morphed themselves that way by humidity! (or by not "setting the pins" correctly!)

After all, just as all the books and videos say, Bach invented ET and wrote the ET Clavinova music to prove how great it was and ALL music, ever since has been composed in it and would not have been possible without ET and ALL pianos have always been tuned in ET ever since Bach invented it! (No exceptions).

Therefore, it was a blessing to the world what Bach did! He created the foundation for all music that we know today! Now, very unfortunately, there seem to be a few nutcase, kook, off beat, genuinely crazy piano technicians, maybe about a dozen of them in the entire world at the most, who seem to think that Historical Temperaments would be a good idea! But believe me, folks, it is a complete folly if there ever was one! It is something that wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried!

After all, any book that you may read never says anything about such obscure findings as, Well Temperament, Modified Meantone or any such ridiculous notions as 1/5, 1/6, 1/7, 1/8, 1/9 or 1/10 Comma Meantones! Man, once that ET had been discovered, it was ET all the way, Baby and Kirnberger, Werkmeister, Neidhardt, Rameau, Vallotti, Young, Prinze and all of that crowd were all choking in the dust! All of their unequal attempts at ET were just that, attempts! They were all trying to tune ET!

ET was the Final Solution, Baby, and I mean the really final one where every pitch became unequivocally equidistant from the other! It is a fact! You can look it up for yourself in the novel called, Temperament by Isaac Isacoff (available for purchase on Amazon!). You'll find that citation there and you can use it as a reference when you write your own essay on the subject!

Then, when Dr. William Braide White published the scientific tables for ET that were calculated by none other than Hermann Helmholtz, the most esteemed scientist there ever was in the 19th Century and said, there you are, that is how to tune a piano and here you go, this is how to do it, by gosh, every single piano ever tuned for 100 years and more since then has been tuned in perfect ET! All of the instructions were there and so were all of the checks for every interval! And everybody who ever tried to tune a piano, read that book, from the time that it was first published over 100 years ago until now (and they are all still ordering that book on Amazon!) and was able to follow and incorporate all of the instructions that were in it perfectly!

If there had ever been any doubt that ET and only ET was firmly in place and practiced by everyone who ever tuned a piano, it certainly was the book, "Piano Tuning and Allied Arts" by Dr. William Briade-White that sealed the idea, "every pitch, unequivocally equidistant from the other" into a concrete that our wonderful music history depended upon for its very existence and from which it could never escape!

If there was anybody who had a problem with those instructions, Dr, William Braide White had a solution (as long as you may be in an area that actually had electricity as stated in his book) and that was the magnificent Strobe Tuner! It would provide you, as the tuner, the exact pitch information for every note whether you, as a tuner could ever discern anything by ear or not! After all, the famed Lawrence Welk Orchestra was known to have tuned its piano, "straight to the strobe"! If that is not good enough for you, then you must be some kind of kook, nutcase!

Of all of those beautiful melodies that were composed by well known composers of classic American musicals, their key signatures were chosen completely at random or for any reason except what kind of "color" or character a particular key signature may have provided! It was because of the key a certain person liked to sing in! Yes! That would be the reason!

It was because a certain pianist could only play in a certain key! Yes, that was another reason! It was because some pianist's hands fit better over five sharps than they did over the white keys. Yes, that was certainly the reason why so many compositions were composed in 4,5 or 6 flats or sharps and could have absolutely NEVER have been because of what a particular key signature would have been expected to sound like!

What? Are you kidding? You think THAT may have been a reason? You must be completely NUTS and I suggest you seek help for your mental condition if you do, sorry to say.

Truly, never once, was a key signature for any song or any composition at any time, ever chosen because the expectation was that a particular key signature might better suit that composition's or song's melody line or character. Nope, that could have never been the reason since Bach had invented ET, there never had been any distinction whatsoever between one key signature or another! It just could have never happened that way!

Beethoven, for example, NEVER chose ANY key for ANY reason other than a completely random one. He chose E-flat for the Emperor Concerto, for example but completely at random, chose B Major for the slow movement. He chose G Major for the 4th piano concerto by just rolling the dice and it came up to be G Major, of all keys. Imagine that! I think it may have been better in F Major or even better in F# major but such is luck! In any case, it would not have mattered at all since all keys sound the same in ET and ALL music since Bach invented ET has been in ET!

Oh, and then when we get to Brahms, certainly by that time, everything had long been in ET! Referring to the recent article in the PTG Journal which says so and to which there can be no contest because it has been written there by a university technician! He must certainly know what he is talking about! After all, he wrote other articles about Historical Temperaments recently and said how they were all a bunch of hooey and he got an award for it! He MUST be right!

None of what Brahms ever wrote had anything at all to do with what anything may have sounded like in any particular key, according to that author! You better not ever try to tune a piano in any Historical Temperament because somebody might come along and want to transpose the Brahms: Träumrei into F# Major and then it would sound terrible and then what could you do about it? Huh? I gotcha! Brahms meant for that piece to be in ET only and for it to be freely transposable into any other key!

There is only one solution and one solution only and that is ET! In ET, everything is in tune! There is complete freedom of modulation! Complete freedom of transposition! Nothing sounds "sour" and nothing sounds "dead"! It is, for all intents and purposes, the Final Solution! There can be nor will there be any dispute about that!

It is the Standard! It has been the standard for over 100 years! Why even try to buck the trend? Shouldn't there be a World Wide Standard where ALL instruments and voices could sing and play in tune? Huh? Shouldn't there be? Isn't there already? Hasn't there already been since Bach or at least since 100 years ago? Isn't a note a note? Isn't a scale, "Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do and all the half steps equally in between? Huh? Isn't it???!!

But then we find people like a 17 year old student who already has bought his own tuning tools and has been trying to learn on his own because none of the above ever seemed to really be the truth at all! HMMM!

There has been a local tuner who was paid good money by the school district to tune pianos in Reverse Well and to otherwise neglect any any all other service requirements that a piano may have. A 17 year old boy seemed to recognize that something was not right about any of it. All on his own and all from his own sense of what music should sound like!

If you ask me, he has the makings of a true and worthy piano technician and he does not need to follow any phony teachings of anyone who is only out to make money off of him. He needs to learn how to distinguish between what is real and not real and to learn techniques that actually work in this trade.

I won't be able to teach him everything he should know but I think I certainly can teach him how to distinguish between what he should know and what is complete baloney!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2272269 - 05/07/14 08:34 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Bill,

After reading this thread over and over, I have only one question. Were accordions, during the Mediaeval Period, tuned to the Holy Roman Wolfbane Temperament? Was this done to keep the monks on pitch and free from sin?

My next door neighbor told me that Bach had an extreme fear of werewolves and that's why he spent so much time in church so that all evil could be equal. Is that true?

wink
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2272279 - 05/07/14 09:02 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1072
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Man. Did you take typing lessons in high school Bill. Or do you have a secretary?
(Just this post took me five minutes, with all the correcting of the auto correcting I had to do on my stupid
I phone home.)


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (05/07/14 09:04 AM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2272302 - 05/07/14 10:12 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
It doesn't take me very long to type out what everybody else knows to be the truth, Mark. In fact, I copied and pasted large portions of it from your website!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2272337 - 05/07/14 11:43 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3523
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
It doesn't take me very long to type out what everybody else knows to be the truth, Mark. In fact, I copied and pasted large portions of it from your website!



Geez Bill, you're going to give yourself a heart attack at this rate. I suggest you relax and allow people to believe what they want to believe. Yes, there are plenty of fallacies out there, but you aren't going to change the world with 6000 words of pure sarcasm. It's not persuasive simply because it's so angst ridden and aggressive. You won't engage anybody unless you can temper (pun intended) your frustration. Your message is getting lost in the rage. Ultimately, the people with whom you can discuss this subject meaningfully are not those who swallow the fallacies like J.S. Bach invented ET, etc. A meaningful discourse will happen with people who are fairly well apprised of the history of temperaments. It doesn't mean they are going to agree with you, but you will be discussing the merits of different temperaments themselves rather than being sidetracked by historical fallacies.

Top
#2272405 - 05/07/14 02:41 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks for your opinion, Ando but anytime anyone does try to talk about the merits and benefits of Cycle 5ths based temperaments, it gets stomped into the ground by the heavy boot of sheer, single minded ignorance. I just had a little fun illustrating some of it.

I love the way George Orwell thought when he wrote, "War is Peace. Ignorance is Strength. Freedom is Slavery." It could all be applied to any discussion about temperament.

There can only be peace when there is a constant and continuing war against those who actually know something about and actually use Cycle of 5ths based temperaments. If that war is not maintained, the use of them may break out and gain a foothold and that must be prevented at any cost and by any means necessary. ET is the Final Solution, as Stuart Isacoff says. Since complete eradication of any other idea can never happen, it is only through a constant war that a relative peace can prevail.

The strength that ET only advocates have, the purported 99.9% of all tuning done in the world is the complete ignorance of any other possibility. As RXD so aptly said, "You don't know what you don't know" and that is exactly the way they like it. They don't want to know anything about any other tuning system and they don't want anyone else to know anything about them either. The greatest fear of all is that someone may actually ask to have a particular kind of temperament performed and that would put one in the position of admitting to have no knowledge or experience in that domain.

So, it is far easier to write books such as Mr. Isacoff has done which appear to be informative but which actually conceal a vast amount of knowledge. It is easy to make a documentary that seems to recount the entire history of tuning but actually leaves most of that history concealed completely. If nothing is ever said about that segment of tuning history, then it must never have happened and nobody will know anything about it. Just as in Orwell's novel, the facts are eradicated in order to promote a much more easily believed, simplified solution such as "each pitch unequivocally equidistant from the other" as being the very foundation for all music that we know.

It is such a convenient and easily swallowed explanation that most people actually believe it. When someone challenges very strongly held beliefs, the natural reaction is to become very defensive about those beliefs. No amount of proof to the contrary matters. As Vladimir Horowitz was known to shout at his piano technician, Franz Mohr, "I don't WANT to know!"

Therefore, the vision of the future of piano tuning education will also be as was described in Orwell's novel, "...a boot stomping on a face forever." The maintenance of ignorance must be sustained by force and by the strength of the ignorance itself.

BDB is a master of that technique. He doesn't know what he doesn't know about the subject of Cycle of 5ths based temperaments but he enjoys making other people in this forum feel like idiots for knowing something he has never heard of. If he doesn't know it, it is not worth knowing and will find a way to ridicule whatever idea it may be in an attempt to make his ignorance appear to be wisdom. I have never seen a better illustration of the boot stomping on a face forever than what BDB does on a daily basis through nearly 21,000 posts of which 99.9% are nothing but condescending quips that inform no one of anything and are intended solely to embarrass ridicule and belittle the recipient of them.

Freedom is Slavery. In ET, there is complete freedom of modulation, so they say. One may hear all of the nuances that were intended in the music. All who practice only ET hear them. There is no reason to explore anything else and if one does, all that one hears are "sour" sounds which surely, the composer had not intended. Forget about what a pianist may discover that is new and wondrous about the music. That piano is going to get ET and nothing but ET because the technician knows better what the pianist should have.

There never is and can be no discussion about it. The freedom that the ET only technician provides is the shackle to a single solution, the final solution. The world wide standard. When you accept the one and only product there is and know that there is and can only be that one choice, then your mind is freed from the necessity of making any kind of decision. If you never know of any other possibility to begin with, you are born free. You fit in with everyone else, all people knowing of just one possibility: ET. That is true musical freedom!

So, Ando, I don't really care whether anything I say influences any particular person or not. I presume that quite often, it only makes certain people dig in more deeply in defense of what they don't know that they don't know. I have a clientele who is enlightened and I am glad that they are. I have managed to enlighten a few other technicians too and I am content that I have.

Normally, I would not have time to write this much during a week day but I accidentally sprained my left thumb yesterday, so it makes it difficult to play octaves right now. I decided to take the day off and give it a rest. It does give me the opportunity to make it very clear, however that I am just as deeply dug in about the subject of temperament as anyone who writes about what I do from a position of not knowing what they don't know about the subject.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2272622 - 05/08/14 03:06 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Freedom is Slavery.


How stupid and absurd. What is slavery then? Freedom?

Your attack on BDB in your last two posts is unacceptable. I prefer to read BDB's posts to yours anyday. I consider you to be raving and obsessed with yourself. Any good that you may bring to the table is lost in all your rantings and attacks.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
So, Ando, I don't really care whether anything I say influences any particular person or not.


Well, if you really believed this, and applied it, then you would not write half of what you do and you would refrain from personal attacks. Your above post reveals something which is called self deceit.

The problem with you Bill Bremmer is that you are intolerant of what others believe, and you couch this in the guise of, "I am the champion of the "Cause". But in all your writings, you leave a trail of hate.

If you really cared about people you would not carry on the way you do. You have pet peeves and hobby horses which you need to reign in.

With regards to your attack on BDB and his tuning technique, my thoughts are that he would out tune you any day.

If tuning ET is as difficult as you say it is, and I agree with you that it is, and many professional piano tuners, some who have attained to great heights, tune something other than ET, though are striving for ET, are pleasing their employers and clients, why do you think you can go around attacking, belittling and defaming them.

You have publicly, and on numerous occasions defamed many well known and respected professional piano tuners, as you are doing now with BDB. This is unacceptable and shameful. I am sure that you are breaking the PTG code of ethics and they, the PTG, allow you to merrily continue.

One finds in most cases that people who like to make accusations, such as you do, are guilty of there very things that are accusing of. I think that if one had opportunity to check your tunings out, on a piano to piano basis, and you were left without your SAT, you would tune a reverse well, even with using your ET via Marpurg.

You are well aware that there are well known and respected tuners here on PW, who use a 4ths and 5ths temperament, who have stated that they achieve ET, but you still write what you write, in absolute disdain to and for them. What you are doing is, at least for me becoming reprehensible.

I wonder how well you can really tune without your SAT? I think that BDB's tunings would outshine yours any day.

Regards,
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2272654 - 05/08/14 06:48 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3190
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Mark,

I stand by every word that I said. I wouldn't care to go through the tens of thousands of insulting posts that BDB has written to back up what I said in my previous post. You seem to believe what you want to believe and you also infer things that I have never said.

You have the right to your opinion and so do I. My opinion is that information about Cycle of 5ths based temperaments is almost never mentioned in books about tuning and in books or documentaries about tuning history.

While it may be possible for someone to tune an acceptable ET by using a 4ths & 5ths sequence and I know that some technicians do and I have written many times that I know they do, I also believe that kind of sequence is responsible for Reverse Well. I know what I am saying is true based upon knowledge and experience that you do not have.

You made your own accusations in your post which could easily be considered a personal attack. You made statements for which you have no foundation and for which there is none at all. I have often seen that when someone tries to express their opinion about the benefits and merits of non-equal temperaments, you have made it a point to disagree with those opinions. You have that right, of course but the way in which you have disagreed has always told me that you don't really know what you are talking about. You simply wish to express your dislike of the subject altogether. It seems to me that your opinion is what matters, not what you may really know. If the opinion of someone else is contrary to yours, it is a problem for you which you cannot argue with facts or experience, only with contempt.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2272676 - 05/08/14 07:55 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
It seems to me that your opinion is what matters, not what you may really know. If the opinion of someone else is contrary to yours, it is a problem for you which you cannot argue with facts or experience, only with contempt.


My opinion does not matter, as such. It is just that, my opinion, but it is an opinion nevertheless and if anhyone is interested can look into what I have said and work out for themselves if it has any value in it or not.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion as are all, but the manner in which you go about expressing it is wrong.

I stand by what I say, you do defame and attack all those who do not hold to what you believe. It is clearly seen in your writing.

I have never made the claim to know it all, and what I do know, is from 10 years in a piano restoration workshop and a continuing education by applying what people have written, here, other piano tech forums and books, DVD's, now being in the trade for just over 20 years.

If I lived in the States, I would certainly avail myself of the piano technology conferences, but I do not have that luxury here.

Some things I can do well, other things not so well (due to not having the opportunity to do them).

There are things that I do not like (context of piano technology), and have been reticent to hearing them, but over time have come to accepting and taking those things on board. It is called growth.

I don't know Bill, I think that i could tune just as well as you do. I don't doubt this, and this i gather from all your writings, videos and excuse making.

You may have a great knowledge about some things but you seem to lack something very important, which you are exhibiting in your posts, good character. Some folks know how to please their clients and employers but behind the skin deep is another story altogether.

I may not arrive at the level of some folks, but what I can say is, that I can tune a piano well, I can regulate a piano well and in God's grace, I am honest, and I am continually learning about piano technology.

Regards,


Edited by Mark Davis (05/09/14 01:26 AM)
Edit Reason: correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
Page 5 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
131 registered (A Guy, aesop, 36251, 40 invisible), 1639 Guests and 28 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75609 Members
42 Forums
156340 Topics
2296186 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Do someone have a Sciortino Insta-COILER
by Olek
08/01/14 06:55 PM
Buying used piano for school district - need advice/cautions
by ChoralScholar
08/01/14 05:34 PM
Help with a leg!
by igirl
08/01/14 04:53 PM
Have you had to fire your piano teacher? Why?
by alans
08/01/14 04:02 PM
Is an old Fischer piano valuable
by BenC5
08/01/14 03:58 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission