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Topic Options
#2272680 - 05/08/14 08:08 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 679
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
While it may be possible for someone to tune an acceptable ET by using a 4ths & 5ths sequence and I know that some technicians do and I have written many times that I know they do, I also believe that kind of sequence is responsible for Reverse Well. I know what I am saying is true based upon knowledge and experience that you do not have.


Let us break it down,

1. So, we agree that there are tuners who achieve ET via a 4ths and 5ths sequence.

2. Though there are some tuners who tune a reverse well temperament by not fully understanding how to achieve ET via that sequence, may I ask what a tuner would come up with, if they tuned a CM3 system, but do not know how to achieve an ET via that system? Maybe a reverse EBVT III? Something which you are not telling us about!?

3. I am not to sure about your knowledge and experience, though you tout it so well.


Edited by Mark Davis (05/08/14 12:53 PM)
Edit Reason: make a necessary correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner Technician

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#2272701 - 05/08/14 08:45 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Lucas Brookins Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 93
Loc: Janesville WI
I think it's either you know it, or you don't.
_________________________
Lucas Brookins
PTG Associate Member

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#2272705 - 05/08/14 08:57 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Davis]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis (in reference to Bill Bremmer)
I think that BDB's tunings would outshine yours any day.

Upon what basis could you possibly make this statement?

Are you directly familiar with the tunings of either?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2272706 - 05/08/14 09:00 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Davis]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis (in reference to Bill Bremmer)
I am not to sure about your knowledge and experience, though you tout it so well.

You might do some easy research to come to an accurate conclusion.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2272709 - 05/08/14 09:08 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 679
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis (in reference to Bill Bremmer)
I am not to sure about your knowledge and experience, though you tout it so well.

You might do some easy research to come to an accurate conclusion.


Yes, fortunately it is easy research, and I have come to an accurate conclusion.

I certainly do not want to go through all the stuff that Bill has posted, to show where Bill is wrong, and has been inaccurate and also has been blatantly dishonest, but the evidence is all there if one really wanted to find it.


Edited by Mark Davis (05/08/14 12:58 PM)
Edit Reason: correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner Technician

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#2272710 - 05/08/14 09:10 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 679
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis (in reference to Bill Bremmer)
I think that BDB's tunings would outshine yours any day.

Upon what basis could you possibly make this statement?

Are you directly familiar with the tunings of either?


It is in my opinion that this is the case. I have given sufficient reason in my earlier posts as to how i have come to this conclusion.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner Technician

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#2272714 - 05/08/14 09:15 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Minnesota Marty]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1063
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
If you want to have some fun, feel the temperature rise as the tuners become ill-tempered whenever temperament is mentioned.

whistle

tiki

grin


Just a reminder folks: The above is the second response to LarryShone on this six page and counting thread.

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#2272717 - 05/08/14 09:24 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Lucas Brookins Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 93
Loc: Janesville WI
Haha! I saw that earlier when trying to figure out what this thread was about. Got a kick out of it!
_________________________
Lucas Brookins
PTG Associate Member

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#2272727 - 05/08/14 09:35 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1923
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Music. Temperamental is thy name.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2272728 - 05/08/14 09:36 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Lucas Brookins]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1063
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted By: That Tooner
Haha! I saw that earlier when trying to figure out what this thread was about. Got a kick out of it!


To me, as an amateur, this thread, like so many others, shows that there is still much mystery about tuning a piano well, due mostly, I think, to inharmonicity. If piano tuning, to a concert level, was reducible to a simple mathematical construct, predicted and presented by an ETD - or, tuning was an easily heard, easily trained, easily reproducible aural exercise, there wouldn't be such animosity amongst the various contributers.

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#2272868 - 05/08/14 02:57 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1789
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
It doesn't take me very long to type out what everybody else knows to be the truth, Mark. In fact, I copied and pasted large portions of it from your website!


Folks, I hope you realize he was kidding.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2272871 - 05/08/14 03:03 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1789
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Bill,

Your claim of the weakness of a fourths/fifths temperament is short sighted. Don't all technicians clean up a temperament after they've finished the first pass with their preferred temperament sequence? They should. All temperament sequences can be improved after the first pass.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2272873 - 05/08/14 03:13 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: prout]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1789
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: prout
[quote=That Tooner]
To me, as an amateur, this thread, like so many others, shows that there is still much mystery about tuning a piano well, due mostly, I think, to inharmonicity. If piano tuning, to a concert level, was reducible to a simple mathematical construct, predicted and presented by an ETD - or, tuning was an easily heard, easily trained, easily reproducible aural exercise, there wouldn't be such animosity amongst the various contributers.


There is no mystery. It is a conspiracy created by technicians who want to prevent people from learning how to do it themselves and eat into their revenue.

I have taught accomplished musicians how to tune a piano to a reasonable level in one week. But I have studied and worked both as a professional engineer and an educator, two skills that are not pre-requisites for being a piano tuner, or instructor.

Consider music. Of course not everyone will learn to be a concert pianist, but many, many people enjoy performing amateur music at a very high level.

Why is there this belief that piano tuning is so much different? I am also a professional musician, and I can tell you, for me, piano tuning is a whole lot easier than performing.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2272880 - 05/08/14 03:28 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
adamp88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 196
Loc: Omaha, NE
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
It is a conspiracy created by technicians who want to prevent people from learning how to do it themselves and eat into their revenue.


Thank you for speaking for the entire community of piano technicians. I'm sure you do no disservice to your fellow technicians with such a broadly simplistic and hyperbolic statement impugning their motivations.

Quote:
I have taught accomplished musicians how to tune a piano to a reasonable level in one week.


Define "reasonable level" please.
_________________________
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
ASB Piano Service
Omaha, NE

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#2272888 - 05/08/14 03:44 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1789
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Able to pass the RPT exam, in my opinion. They aren't tested. Granted, it's on one piano that they get used to the whole week, but it can be done. Also, note that these were accomplished musicians.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2272890 - 05/08/14 03:48 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: adamp88]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1789
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
It is a conspiracy created by technicians who want to prevent people from learning how to do it themselves and eat into their revenue.


Originally Posted By: adamp88

Thank you for speaking for the entire community of piano technicians. I'm sure you do no disservice to your fellow technicians with such a broadly simplistic and hyperbolic statement impugning their motivations.


I do not speak for the entire community of technicians. Who said that?

Of course, you know I'm not generalizing when I say this. I'm only referring to those technicians who "want to prevent people from learning how to do it themselves and eat into their revenue".

You know who you are.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2272898 - 05/08/14 04:05 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: prout]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1861
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: prout
If piano tuning, to a concert level, was reducible to a simple mathematical construct, ....


The problem is that it's reducible to two different incompatible mathematical constructs: Whole number ratios that derive from harmonics, and the twelfth root of two - equal steps thing. Conflict ensues....
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-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2272913 - 05/08/14 04:30 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: JohnSprung]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1063
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
Originally Posted By: prout
If piano tuning, to a concert level, was reducible to a simple mathematical construct, ....


The problem is that it's reducible to two different incompatible mathematical constructs: Whole number ratios that derive from harmonics, and the twelfth root of two - equal steps thing. Conflict ensues....



I must respectfully disagree. With very accurately measured inharmonic partials for each note (the first 32 partials for A0 decreasing to 3 partials for C8) it is possible to construct an ET with progressively increasing beat rates for the intervals of interest that also sounds musical using a minimum entropy based mathematical approach that looks at the piano as a whole.

On a piano, harmonics don't exist.

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#2272931 - 05/08/14 05:13 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 234
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT

I have taught accomplished musicians how to tune a piano to a reasonable level in one week.


How many hours??
15? 30? 21? 35?


Thank you,
Herr Weiss



Edited by Herr Weiss (05/08/14 10:04 PM)
_________________________
HW

"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu

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#2272934 - 05/08/14 05:16 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1789
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
That is not the whole picture. We do not just match higher partials. We also tune notes to be in tune with notes below.

The most common reason for tuning 2:1 octaves in the treble, is that the higher partials are not heard, so there is no point in tuning 4:2 or 6:3.

However, we sometimes miss the point of tuning the note to be in tune with even lower notes, a pure 12th, a pure 22nd, or a pure 19th. When this is done, the treble octaves end up wider than a 2:1.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2272939 - 05/08/14 05:32 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1063
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
That is not the whole picture. We do not just match higher partials. We also tune notes to be in tune with notes below.

The most common reason for tuning 2:1 octaves in the treble, is that the higher partials are not heard, so there is no point in tuning 4:2 or 6:3.

However, we sometimes miss the point of tuning the note to be in tune with even lower notes, a pure 12th, a pure 22nd, or a pure 19th. When this is done, the treble octaves end up wider than a 2:1.

To whom are you responding?

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#2273012 - 05/08/14 10:00 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: prout]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1344
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: prout

To me, as an amateur, this thread, like so many others, shows that there is still much mystery about tuning a piano well, due mostly, I think, to inharmonicity. If piano tuning, to a concert level, was reducible to a simple mathematical construct, predicted and presented by an ETD - or, tuning was an easily heard, easily trained, easily reproducible aural exercise, there wouldn't be such animosity amongst the various contributers.


Greetings,
There is little mystery: the division of the octave is well understood, easily measured, and put into practice daily. Straight out of the machine tunings from a modern ETD can meet the highest demands of the musical community with their computer generated spreads, ( I have seen it and done it), and whole rooms of piano tuners, listening critically, are usually evenly split between preferring the best aural against a an unmodified machine's program. I have a hard time accepting that a musician would notice a difference when using either.

What the constant rancor around the subject shows me that there is still considerable fear, both profound and unacknowledged, in the tuning community. We are all square pegs, spend too much time by ourselves, and are prone to be sensitive when our work is questioned. We fear the critique, we fear the rejection. We fear not being the authority, and this fear is corrosive. It arrives from its mediocre shadows, cloaked in neon vehemence, armed with righteousness and virtual venom. There are clues, such as the spontaneous fumaroles of animosity. Even the tuning test of the PTG is excoriated by many that have yet to demonstrate the ability to pass it. I question the world-view of anyone spouting a dogmatic, fundamentalist, exaltation of this or that approach, this or that result, inevitably digressing into a questioning of other's intelligence, hearing, musicality, or morals. Sometimes it gets all the way to Adolph, but usually sputters out like a forgotten fire.

Some people have enshrined what their manner of tuning happens to be. It is their identity. In their allegiance, they find nobility and go about hanging all sorts of freight, from spiritual to commercial, on a well-glorified technique. It is these techs that regard any suggestion to change the sacred as an attack, or at least, solid heresy. The eruptions and rantings, lunges of logic, the inevitable calumniation, all provide endless amusement, enjoy.

Regards,

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#2273013 - 05/08/14 10:03 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Herr Weiss]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 234
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss

How many hours??
15? 30? 21? 35?


Serious Question!!



HW
_________________________
HW

"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu

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#2273112 - 05/09/14 04:51 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Davis]
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 2010
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Freedom is Slavery.


How stupid and absurd. What is slavery then? ...
.
.
.

With regards to your attack on BDB and his tuning technique, my thoughts are that he would out tune you any day.
.
.
.
I think that if one had opportunity to check your tunings out, on a piano to piano basis, and you were left without your SAT, you would tune a reverse well, even with using your ET via Marpurg.
.
.
.
I wonder how well you can really tune without your SAT? I think that BDB's tunings would outshine yours any day.

Regards,



To Mark Davis:

Have you ever tuned a piano in a Well Temperament?

Can you explain in your own words what a Well temperament is?

Have you asked BDB to explain you the difference between a 6:3 and a 4:2 octave?

If your answer is no, as I presume it will be, how the heck do you dare to speak to Mr. Bremmer the way you do?

For me, only your ignorance and lack of experience can explain your arrogance and misrespect to someone who has contributed so much to the field of piano tuning, as Mr. Bremmer has.

How someone like you, who is not able to install a string without twisting it and causing false beats in it and then comes here to ask for help, can speak like this to an authority in piano tuning like Mr. Bremmer?

IMO, you have a long way to walk before you can question Mr. Bemmer's tunings and ideas.

IMHO, you better shut your mouth up and put your hands to practice and open your ears and your mind to learn what Mr. Bremmer has to teach you (and many other technicians here in this forum).





Edited by Gadzar (05/09/14 04:58 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2273119 - 05/09/14 05:43 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
LarryShone Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 1081
Loc: England
I posted a genuine query on the PTG facebook group as to whether it's possible to tune a piano ones self, and got told flatly no. Yet a well known piano restorer and collector said to me that it was possible to tune your own piano.
_________________________
If the piano is the King of instruments then I am its loyal servant.

My Soundcloud
Casio Celviano AP-450

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#2273122 - 05/09/14 05:56 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: LarryShone
I posted a genuine query on the PTG facebook group as to whether it's possible to tune a piano ones self, and got told flatly no. Yet a well known piano restorer and collector said to me that it was possible to tune your own piano.


The customer is always right wink

There is much differences between what consider a "tuning" is.

As if Someone ask a piano "to make concerts" , that will not be the same piano depending who ask.

Terms are unclear, often.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2273127 - 05/09/14 06:24 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Gadzar]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 679
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Freedom is Slavery.


How stupid and absurd. What is slavery then? ...
.
.
.

With regards to your attack on BDB and his tuning technique, my thoughts are that he would out tune you any day.
.
.
.
I think that if one had opportunity to check your tunings out, on a piano to piano basis, and you were left without your SAT, you would tune a reverse well, even with using your ET via Marpurg.
.
.
.
I wonder how well you can really tune without your SAT? I think that BDB's tunings would outshine yours any day.

Regards,



To Mark Davis:

Have you ever tuned a piano in a Well Temperament?

Can you explain in your own words what a Well temperament is?

Have you asked BDB to explain you the difference between a 6:3 and a 4:2 octave?

If your answer is no, as I presume it will be, how the heck do you dare to speak to Mr. Bremmer the way you do?

For me, only your ignorance and lack of experience can explain your arrogance and misrespect to someone who has contributed so much to the field of piano tuning, as Mr. Bremmer has.

How someone like you, who is not able to install a string without twisting it and causing false beats in it and then comes here to ask for help, can speak like this to an authority in piano tuning like Mr. Bremmer?

IMO, you have a long way to walk before you can question Mr. Bemmer's tunings and ideas.

IMHO, you better shut your mouth up and put your hands to practice and open your ears and your mind to learn what Mr. Bremmer has to teach you (and many other technicians here in this forum).


Rafael

I am not answerable to you.

Until you prove yourself worthy to enter into dialogue with, please understand my silence toward you as one of disdain.


Edited by Mark Davis (05/09/14 05:14 PM)
Edit Reason: make a necessary correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner Technician

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#2273130 - 05/09/14 06:29 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 679
.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner Technician

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#2273137 - 05/09/14 07:00 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Herr Weiss]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1789
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT

I have taught accomplished musicians how to tune a piano to a reasonable level in one week.


How many hours??
15? 30? 21? 35?


Thank you,
Herr Weiss




20
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2273164 - 05/09/14 08:57 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2211
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: LarryShone
... a well known piano restorer and collector said to me that it was possible to tune your own piano.

The piano restorer is right.

With an ETD you don't even need to get your head round temperament.

Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
There is little mystery: the division of the octave is well understood, easily measured, and put into practice daily. Straight out of the machine tunings from a modern ETD can meet the highest demands of the musical community with their computer generated spreads, ( I have seen it and done it), and whole rooms of piano tuners, listening critically, are usually evenly split between preferring the best aural against a an unmodified machine's program. I have a hard time accepting that a musician would notice a difference when using either.

When you can tune as well as Ed we'll recommend you to the neighbours!
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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