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#2273216 - 05/09/14 11:17 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2405
Originally Posted By: LarryShone
Try as I might I cannot get to grips with "just" and "wolf" tuning. Help!

"The piano is an untunable instrument. With only 12 notes in an octave, their combinations (intervals) cannot all be perfectly "in tune" at once. Tuning a note to perfect one interval will spoil others which use that same note ,thus, compromises (tempering) are used to create the maximum number of usable intervals"

Untuneable? Ugh?
From
http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html


You seem to have an electronic piano. If it is capable of setting various temperaments other than ET -as some digital pianos can do-, then you can try the temperaments and decide which one you like the most.

And, if you have an acoustic piano, which you should, since you are asking this at tuner's section, then you can have your piano tuned to that temperament as well.

edit: Oops, your tagline says you need a piano. I hope you can get one soon. Really there is no comparison between a digital and a real piano. A real piano is much more satisfying in every way.


Edited by Hakki (05/09/14 11:22 AM)
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#2273258 - 05/09/14 01:24 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1595
Loc: Mexico City
Dear Mark,

You understand what you want not what I write.

I told you to ask BDB about the difference between a 6:3 and a 4:2 octave because when I did ask him he had no idea what I was talking about! I wonder how could he tune a piano.

But apparently you are not understanding what I said.

My point is that you have not enough experience to question Mr. Bremmer's tunings. I've read in another thread that occasionaly you have tuned UT using an ETD. Then, as I said before, you have no experience in tuning it by ear, you just tune what the ETD tells you is right, but are you aware of what you are doing? That is why I asked you to say in your own words what a Well Temperament is and you have not answered.

I ask you to show a little respect to the trade and to people like Mr. Bremmer who has devoted his entire life to tune pianos in a intelligent way, questioning what was writen 100 years ago and proposing and teaching new ways of tuning a piano,:from designing a new temperament to developping new techniques and sequences to tune other temperaments.

A beginer like you, IMO, should close his mouth and open his ears and his mind, to to listen carefully and learn from the more experienced craftmen who post in this forum.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2273321 - 05/09/14 03:54 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Rafael

No, it is you who understand what you want.

Remember, that I said I am not answerable to you. What did you not understand about that?

I tune aurally in general, though I sometimes use a device. I am able to tune ET aurally too.

You are an utter hypocrite Rafael. You want to speak to me about respect when you speak to me in the manner that you do?

No, until you prove yourself worthy to enter into dialogue with, please understand my silence toward you as one of disdain.


Edited by Mark Davis (05/09/14 05:07 PM)
Edit Reason: make a necessary correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273323 - 05/09/14 04:04 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
That Tooner Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 56
Loc: Janesville WI
Can we get back to the temperament please?
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2273329 - 05/09/14 04:23 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 118
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT

20


Thank you for answering.


HW

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#2273351 - 05/09/14 05:31 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Ed Foote]
Tim Sullivan Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 78
Loc: Muskoka, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: prout

To me, as an amateur, this thread, like so many others, shows that there is still much mystery about tuning a piano well, due mostly, I think, to inharmonicity. If piano tuning, to a concert level, was reducible to a simple mathematical construct, predicted and presented by an ETD - or, tuning was an easily heard, easily trained, easily reproducible aural exercise, there wouldn't be such animosity amongst the various contributers.


Greetings,
There is little mystery: the division of the octave is well understood, easily measured, and put into practice daily. Straight out of the machine tunings from a modern ETD can meet the highest demands of the musical community with their computer generated spreads, ( I have seen it and done it), and whole rooms of piano tuners, listening critically, are usually evenly split between preferring the best aural against a an unmodified machine's program. I have a hard time accepting that a musician would notice a difference when using either.

What the constant rancor around the subject shows me that there is still considerable fear, both profound and unacknowledged, in the tuning community. We are all square pegs, spend too much time by ourselves, and are prone to be sensitive when our work is questioned. We fear the critique, we fear the rejection. We fear not being the authority, and this fear is corrosive. It arrives from its mediocre shadows, cloaked in neon vehemence, armed with righteousness and virtual venom. There are clues, such as the spontaneous fumaroles of animosity. Even the tuning test of the PTG is excoriated by many that have yet to demonstrate the ability to pass it. I question the world-view of anyone spouting a dogmatic, fundamentalist, exaltation of this or that approach, this or that result, inevitably digressing into a questioning of other's intelligence, hearing, musicality, or morals. Sometimes it gets all the way to Adolph, but usually sputters out like a forgotten fire.

Some people have enshrined what their manner of tuning happens to be. It is their identity. In their allegiance, they find nobility and go about hanging all sorts of freight, from spiritual to commercial, on a well-glorified technique. It is these techs that regard any suggestion to change the sacred as an attack, or at least, solid heresy. The eruptions and rantings, lunges of logic, the inevitable calumniation, all provide endless amusement, enjoy.

Regards,


Thank you Ed. You've summed it up quite brilliantly.

Tim
_________________________
I'm a piano tech and dealer in Central Ontario.
www.huntsvillepiano.ca

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#2273356 - 05/09/14 05:41 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1595
Loc: Mexico City
Mark,

I have nothing to prove here, but it seems you do have something to prove, so go ahead and prove whatever it may be.

The more you talk the more your ignorance shows its ugly face.

A well temperamnt is (I'll use my own words) a circular, irregular temperament, in which the tonalities with less alterations (sharps and flats) in their key keys signatures are more harmonious than the tonalities with more alterations.

That is why the videos posted here are examples of reverse well. In the first one one FA and GB M3s were more tempered than F#A#. In the second video B major and C# major sounded more harmonious than C major.

That is the result of tuning a sequence based on the circle of 5ths starting at C and tuning up and down, 5ths and 4ths that are too pure. When we finaly get to F#/Gb the circle does not close. Then we are tempted to retune the 5ths and 4ths, going backwards from F# both ways to C, tempering the intervals a little more than we did before.

The final result is purer fifths/fourths near C, which lead to M3s too tempered and more tempered 5ths/4ths near F#, which lead to purer M3s. That is Reverse Well.

Mark Davis says that he has tuned Well Temperaments with his ETD! Is it a joke?

Does that means that he knows what a Well Temperament is? Or what a Well Temperament sounds like? And how to tune a Well Temperament? Or how to recognize a Reverse Well tuned in place of a suposed ET?

Of course NO! That only means he is able to tune a string making the patern of his ETD stop. He can for sure tune whatever temperament you can imagine, as long as it is included in it's ETD library. LOL!

But does he understand what he is doing? I don't know. He refused to answer!
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2273360 - 05/09/14 05:48 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Gadzar]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Mark Davis says that he has tuned Well Temperaments with his ETD! Is it a joke?


This is a lie. When did I say this? Proove it!

Most people tune well temperaments by ETD. What is the problem? In fact, who does not? I am sure that the number of piano tuners who tune well temperaments by ETD far out number those who tune them aurally.

I have tuned EBVT aurally and Valotti aurally. Are you calling me a liar?


Edited by Mark Davis (05/09/14 06:00 PM)
Edit Reason: correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273363 - 05/09/14 05:51 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Rafael, please edit your posts and remove your pernicious and malevolent attacks and lies.

Immediately!
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273367 - 05/09/14 06:03 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Gadzar]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Of course NO! That only means he is able to tune a string making the patern of his ETD stop.


You are a pernicious liar. Pure Vitriol!
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273370 - 05/09/14 06:09 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21275
Loc: Oakland
Who said we got off the topic of temperament?!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2273371 - 05/09/14 06:09 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1595
Loc: Mexico City
I thought you weren't going to answer me, but I see that your need to prove your point is stronger! Jeje!

So be it. Here we are talking about temperament, about Equal Temperament and about Reverse Well Temperament.

So,the problem is that you don't know what you are talking about!

And you are so arrogant that you dare to criticize someone who has done it for more than 30 years with a professional quality. Some one that has tuned nearly all temperaments historically used, from just intonation, meantone (I wonder if you know what it is...), Well, Victorian, Quasi Equal and of course ET. Someone who has designed its own Victorian Temperament, someone who has researched and came out with a bullet proof sequence, designed for beginers like you, to tune a decent ET instead of an ugly Reverse Well.

How do you dare!?


Edited by Gadzar (05/09/14 06:10 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2273372 - 05/09/14 06:09 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1168
Loc: Québec, Canada
Like Ed said, pure entertainment!
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2273377 - 05/09/14 06:21 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Ok, let me give Bill the recognition you want him to have.

He is one smart guy, but there are certainly others that far out shine him. I am sorry for touching your idol!

If you are as good at tuning as you are at telling lies and sowing discord and being pernicious and malevolent, then you must be excellent indeed.

Forget the reverse well thing, you're being hood winked. Franz Mohr tuned it, so some have said on PW, and he received great recognition and praise, except from the those who love to defame, and assassinate the characters of others here on PW.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273378 - 05/09/14 06:22 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
I'll make popcorn.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2273388 - 05/09/14 06:44 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
That Tooner Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 56
Loc: Janesville WI
Haha
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2273390 - 05/09/14 06:48 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1168
Loc: Québec, Canada
If you are going to have popcorn, get me some liquorice please.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2273392 - 05/09/14 06:49 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: accordeur]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 118
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted By: accordeur
Like Ed said, pure entertainment!



Very, very sad I'll say.



HW

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#2273394 - 05/09/14 06:54 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Mark Davis says that he has tuned Well Temperaments with his ETD! Is it a joke?

Does that means that he knows what a Well Temperament is? Or what a Well Temperament sounds like? And how to tune a Well Temperament? Or how to recognize a Reverse Well tuned in place of a suposed ET?

Of course NO! That only means he is able to tune a string making the patern of his ETD stop. He can for sure tune whatever temperament you can imagine, as long as it is included in it's ETD library. LOL!

But does he understand what he is doing?


Yes, i know how to recognise reverse well. By insinuating that I don't, as you have insinuated about a whole lot of things, all you have basically done is lie, to portray something as to be true when it is not. This is pernicious and malevolent. Period!

I have also told you that I tune aurally in general, and that I do and can tune ET. Yes, pakka ET.

So, by you saying what you have, denying what I have told you and said on PW, you are calling me a liar, but the problem is you have no evidence.

On the contrary, I have evidence that you are a liar, and it is right here on PW.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273395 - 05/09/14 06:55 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
.


Edited by Mark Davis (05/09/14 08:22 PM)
Edit Reason: removed the unecessary
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273396 - 05/09/14 06:57 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1595
Loc: Mexico City
Yes, Franz Mohr did it, Isaac Oleg does it, Mr. Capurso does it and many others.

And the other kind of sequence is also used by well reputed tuners: George Defebaugh, Jim Coleman, Mr. Bremmer and many others.

That means it is possible. But that doesn't mean you can do it, that doesn't mean anyone does it well. In fact, there are lot of tuners out there that do not do it well. And the proof of that fact is the existence out there of pianos tuned in Reverse Well. That is what we are talking about. And you, being an ETD tuner, are not at the best place to talk about that. Your ETD knows for sure what ET is and it will not conduct you to Reverse Well. It will give you decent tunings, provided that you know how to calibrate its pitch and how to set the right amount of stretch at the right places, adequate for each piano you tune.

Not to speak about the stability of your tunings and the quality of your unisons.

Your ETD does not make you a piano tuner.
You need to be a piano tuner to make good use of an ETD.

That is why it is important for any piano tuner to know about UTs, aurally tuned of course not just only ET.




Edited by Gadzar (05/09/14 07:15 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2273398 - 05/09/14 07:08 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
My tunings in general are very stable. How would you know anything about my tuning stability? You are in Mexico, remember! Lier!

You can spew your vitriol, but it does not make you right. It just further proves what I have been saying all along.

You are a lier and you are pernicious, having a harmful effect, especially in a gradual or subtle way.

synonyms: harmful, damaging, destructive, injurious, hurtful, detrimental, deleterious, dangerous, adverse, inimical, unhealthy, unfavourable, bad, evil, baleful, wicked, malign, malevolent, malignant, noxious, poisonous, cancerous, corrupting,


_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273399 - 05/09/14 07:16 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
OMG - Now we move into naked bigotry!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2273400 - 05/09/14 07:19 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1595
Loc: Mexico City
It's unbelievable! Now you are going racist and discriminator!

Fortunately I have principles, education and lots of intelligence. And I challenge you to speak about piano tuning. Nothing else. BTW I am reporting you to the moderators of this forum!
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2273401 - 05/09/14 07:21 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
.


Edited by Mark Davis (05/09/14 08:26 PM)
Edit Reason: removed the unecessary
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273404 - 05/09/14 07:23 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
.


Edited by Mark Davis (05/09/14 08:43 PM)
Edit Reason: removed the unecessary
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273412 - 05/09/14 07:31 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
.


Edited by Mark Davis (05/09/14 08:26 PM)
Edit Reason: removed the unecessary
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2273414 - 05/09/14 07:33 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
That Tooner Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 56
Loc: Janesville WI
Maybe we could start a new thread where you guys can yell at each other all you want, because that's all you are really doing right now. We can have the popcorn over there Marty! wink
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2273422 - 05/09/14 07:44 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1168
Loc: Québec, Canada
I predict a moderator's intervention in about an hour. Anybody wanna bet?
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2273439 - 05/09/14 08:04 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
I'm surprised the thread hasn't been locked, already.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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