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#2264714 - 04/20/14 08:18 PM Understanding Sharps
imustlearn Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/07/14
Posts: 13
Hi Guys and Girls,

Since I'm currently teaching myself how to play and don't have access to ask someone face to face .

I have 2 question ;

Q1 : Can someone tell me if I have colored the notes in red correctly that needs to be played as a sharp ? - Sheet attached

http://tinypic.com/r/2d1p6ja/8

Q2 : Same rule applies to flats correct ?


Any help much appreciated.
_________________________
Casio PX850

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#2264728 - 04/20/14 08:35 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 810
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
No, it's not right. Please notice the accidentals for each measure.
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#2264733 - 04/20/14 08:44 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1775
Loc: Pennsylvania
Well, in measure 11 you missed some F notes which are on the first space of the treble clef.

You also missed some C notes between the clefs in measure 11.
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My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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#2264798 - 04/21/14 12:42 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: A443]
imustlearn Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/07/14
Posts: 13
Originally Posted By: A443
No, it's not right. Please notice the accidentals for each measure.


I thought the purpose of accidentals are just for that 1 note ?

E.g if there is a sharp on E , all E's will be played with a sharp , if the following note has an accidental sign that 1 note is played without a sharp ?
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#2264801 - 04/21/14 12:51 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 810
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
An accidental is for the duration of the measure, or unless further instructed.
...kind of like the federal government/BLM vs. Bundy.

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#2264805 - 04/21/14 01:04 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: A443]
RUSS SHETTLE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 291
Loc: Brandywine, Maryland
Originally Posted By: A443
An accidental is for the duration of the measure, or unless further instructed.

..kind of like the federal government/BLM vs. Bundy.


Oh man the Bundy news has hit PW.

Yes, accidentals go for the entire measure (just the one) then it resets. However, if the next note (in the same measure) in this case it was (natural) "C", and it shows a #-symbol, that means you go back to it being was it is by key: C#
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Yamaha CP5
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#2264806 - 04/21/14 01:11 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3438
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By: imustlearn
Hi Guys and Girls,

Since I'm currently teaching myself how to play and don't have access to ask someone face to face .

I have 2 question ;

Q1 : Can someone tell me if I have colored the notes in red correctly that needs to be played as a sharp ? - Sheet attached

http://tinypic.com/r/2d1p6ja/8

Q2 : Same rule applies to flats correct ?


Any help much appreciated.



You got most right. The rule on sharps and flats is this.

Any sharp or flat added to a note in a bar is played on all affected notes following IN THAT BAR ONLY unless it is reintroduced further down the line. In following bars where the sharp or flat is no longer applicable, the "natural" sign will indicate this also.

Now I know someone`s gonna tell me, sfter all these years, that I just got it wrong . . . (Joe King)

Now then. We all have fun when double sharps and flats appear . . .


Edited by peterws (04/21/14 01:13 AM)
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#2264862 - 04/21/14 08:08 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
EM Deeka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/13
Posts: 148
Originally Posted By: imustlearn
Originally Posted By: A443
No, it's not right. Please notice the accidentals for each measure.


I thought the purpose of accidentals are just for that 1 note ?

E.g if there is a sharp on E , all E's will be played with a sharp , if the following note has an accidental sign that 1 note is played without a sharp ?



The first rule to follow is that when explicit accidentals are used "an accidental affects every note of the same name and in the same octave within a measure." And "we would need to add a natural sign if we wanted it natural" in the same measure after the note has been sharped or flatted in the measure.

But what you are seeing is the use of Key Signatures. As explained at teoria.com
"When a piece is not in the key of C Major or A Minor, it requires the use of regular accidentals. In order to avoid having to keep writing those accidentals, we can place them at the beginning of the piece using what is known as a key signature.

For instance, a piece in the key of D Major makes regular use of the notes of F-sharp and C-sharp. The key signature of D Major will then utilize those two accidentals; meaning that when this key signature is present, all F and C notes are automatically raised and become sharp notes, unless they are preceded by the symbol of the natural accidental. "

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#2264957 - 04/21/14 01:05 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 239
Loc: USA
It may be easier if you begin by learning the D major scale with 2 black keys at F and C (that's all the F and C's). When you are feeling comfortable with playing the D major scale up and down the keyboard for at least two octaves, then you know the notes for the music requires the same pattern as your scale in terms of where notes fall. You should learn the scales for both hands separately and practice it each time before you practice the actual music. You will no longer need to pick out which notes are white or black for that key signature ahead of time.

Once you've learned the scale of D major, you should pretend the white key at F and C no longer exist anywhere on the keyboard for this piece of music except when there are accidentals for them. A neutral accidental on F means you now play the white F. A sharp accidental on F means you now play the G.
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#2264963 - 04/21/14 01:39 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia, USA
In the theory books we use for teaching the young choristers basic music theory for church choir, this is how accidentals are taught. I like it because it's simple but hits the points very well:

The kids are given a measure with a key signature (doesn't really matter which but let's say it's a single F# - G major). There are four repeated F quarter notes and they are asked things like:

Make one of them an F natural with a single accidental (answer, you put the natural sign before the last one).
Make three of them an F natural with a single accidental (place before the second F)
Make two of them F naturals and two F# using *two* accidentals (answer place a natural before the first and a # before the third)
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#2265470 - 04/22/14 07:21 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
imustlearn Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/07/14
Posts: 13
Thanks everyone who gave me advice very much appreciated I think I understand now .
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#2265501 - 04/22/14 07:59 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: 8 Octaves]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Eight Octaves
Once you've learned the scale of D major, you should pretend the white key at F and C no longer exist anywhere on the keyboard for this piece of music except when there are accidentals for them. A neutral accidental on F means you now play the white F. A sharp accidental on F means you now play the G.

The last sentence is incorrect. A sharp accidental on F, in any key, means you play the black key F#. To turn the F into a G you would need a double sharp accidental.
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#2265573 - 04/22/14 09:52 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: PianoStudent88]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1775
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Originally Posted By: Eight Octaves
Once you've learned the scale of D major, you should pretend the white key at F and C no longer exist anywhere on the keyboard for this piece of music except when there are accidentals for them. A neutral accidental on F means you now play the white F. A sharp accidental on F means you now play the G.

The last sentence is incorrect. A sharp accidental on F, in any key, means you play the black key F#. To turn the F into a G you would need a double sharp accidental.


Yes, that would be my interpretation of that. An accidental does not ADD to the key signature value of that note, it REPLACES it. If the key signature indicates that the F is to be sharped and you see an accidental(#) next to an F note, it is there for emphasis or a reminder but the F note is still played with a single sharp.
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#2265576 - 04/22/14 09:55 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7475
Loc: New York City
Correct. This is in contrast to accidentals in a figured bass.
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Polyphonist

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#2265655 - 04/23/14 01:03 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: dmd]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 239
Loc: USA
Thanks for the corrections! thumb
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#2265694 - 04/23/14 04:13 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: dmd]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1240
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: dmd
. An accidental does not ADD to the key signature value of that note, it REPLACES it. If the key signature indicates that the F is to be sharped and you see an accidental(#) next to an F note, it is there for emphasis or a reminder but the F note is still played with a single sharp.


I've heard that called a "courtesy" sharp (or flat as the case may be). Editors put them where people commonly make mistakes. Pencil them in if you find yourself making the same mistake over again.
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#2265719 - 04/23/14 07:07 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Roger Ransom Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1239
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Also, in measures 5 and 6. the bass clef A's would not be sharp.
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#2265727 - 04/23/14 07:46 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
wimpiano Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 967
Loc: The Netherlands
Why hasn't anybody proposed for OP to first learn to identify each key on the keyboard (C-C for all octaves) and then learn the circle of fifths?
That way she never has to guess again, your fingers just find the keys because they know where they are...
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Schimmel 116 S .

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#2265865 - 04/23/14 02:08 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: EM Deeka]
TimR Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3151
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: EM Deeka
Originally Posted By: imustlearn
Originally Posted By: A443
No, it's not right. Please notice the accidentals for each measure.


I thought the purpose of accidentals are just for that 1 note ?

E.g if there is a sharp on E , all E's will be played with a sharp , if the following note has an accidental sign that 1 note is played without a sharp ?



The first rule to follow is that when explicit accidentals are used "an accidental affects every note of the same name and in the same octave within a measure."


This is correct but can be misleading and editors sometimes ignore it.

I would use a courtesy accidental whenever an octave note is encountered just to make it clear what I wanted played.

Does anybody know why octaves aren't normally affected?
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#2266036 - 04/23/14 08:08 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Canada
I would color;

F#'s yellow
C#'s pink
G#'s green
D#'s purple
A#'s red
E#'s orange
B#'s blue

They should be a different color, and not one color for al #'s

(Same colors for flats, and it would start}

Bb's blue
Eb's orange
Ab's red
Db's purple
Gb's green
Cb's pink
Fb's yellow

Just makes it stand out when colored different colors!
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#2266383 - 04/24/14 11:48 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
TimR Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3151
Loc: Virginia, USA
My daughter is left handed, and constantly runs into solutions that are useless and aggravating.

For example, ever tried to use a can-opener lefthanded? It makes using a scissors seem easy.

And the relevance?

Well, I'm color blind.
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#2266388 - 04/24/14 11:55 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
wimpiano Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 967
Loc: The Netherlands
Not useless at all, just a slight modification: make blue grey, red grey, green grey, and so on. ROFL
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#2266592 - 04/24/14 07:39 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: imustlearn
Hi Guys and Girls,

Since I'm currently teaching myself how to play and don't have access to ask someone face to face .

I have 2 question ;

Q1 : Can someone tell me if I have colored the notes in red correctly that needs to be played as a sharp ? - Sheet attached

http://tinypic.com/r/2d1p6ja/8

Q2 : Same rule applies to flats correct ?
Any help much appreciated.


Measure 5 & 6 you colored with F#'s and they are A's (because the left hand "was" playing in the treble clef position, but has changed "back" to the bass clef sign! (This is easy to point out than to type out for you). So anyways, measure 5 & 6 you have colored red, and that is wrong. So to notice that I would color the bass clef blue, and if it changes to the treble clef, which they did, I would color it pink.

For those students who are trying to see everything. Little color changes can help beginner so much. You will eventually see it all.

For those who are colorblind, well, ... I'm at a lose for words! grin
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Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#2266597 - 04/24/14 07:49 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Canada
And in measure 11, you didn't color the C# in the bass clef red. But I would have colored that "pink"! and not red.

I think students miss so much in more ways than one without a good piano teacher! grin


Edited by Diane... (04/24/14 07:52 PM)
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#2266646 - 04/24/14 09:50 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: Diane...]
EM Deeka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/13
Posts: 148
Originally Posted By: Diane...

I think students miss so much in more ways than one without a good piano teacher! grin


Especially one with the colors !! I have started coloring the keys directly with dry erase markers based on this tip smile

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#2266719 - 04/25/14 03:44 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
wimpiano Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 967
Loc: The Netherlands
The colors might give a bit of sixties looks too your sheet music.. You might want to put flowers and other ornamentations in as well..


Edited by wimpiano (04/25/14 03:44 AM)
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#2266880 - 04/25/14 12:09 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Canada
hahahahahaha well, laugh now but when you hit the Cx (double sharps) and the
Cbb (C double flats... you'll thank me! wink



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#2266930 - 04/25/14 01:29 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: Diane...]
TimR Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3151
Loc: Virginia, USA
Colored notes actually interfere with my reading.

I have mild synthesia and when I hear notes I see shapes. They aren't colored shapes. My colorblindness is mild, I can see colors is they are bright enough.

So they interrupt the process: see the note, hear the note mentally, see the shape mentally, start to reach for the note and BAM see the color.

My handbell ringers sometimes put a circle around the left hand note and a triangle around the right. (the ones who don't read music.)
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#2267014 - 04/25/14 04:18 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11555
Loc: Canada
How about if students (and musicians) devise the symbols and cues that they find works for them, if and when they need them.

The first time I took lessons it was on another instrument, and this is where I cut my teeth on what does and doesn`t work for me. My first bid for independence is when I started photocopying my pieces so I could have a clean copy at home. The reason was that when my teacher put in reminders like fingerings for certain notes, intervals (^ for half step) or shifts, these became crutches and I was not reading the music. What worked for me was having the marked up music AND the clean music because then I could check myself.

In the next phase I actually went the opposite direction. I made multiple copies of the music, and then marked up each page in a different way, for seeing different things in the music. But these were MY symbols that worked for me. (And for anyone with synthesia, colours absolutely would not work.)

When I was first trying to get at key signatures and the specific note being affected, I did use colour, but I coloured the line or space. smile The way it felt to me, was that this line had a "magical current" running through it which made each note climb or descend a semitone. An accidental interrupted the "magical current" with even greater magic, or perhaps it acted as a circuit breaker. laugh

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#2267050 - 04/25/14 05:21 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: keystring]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: keystring
How about if students (and musicians) devise the symbols and cues that they find works for them, if and when they need them.


Yes, it is a crutch! Just a learning tool to be used temporarily. Whether it's to learn notes, or sharps & flats!
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