Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

Trying Something New with Search
(ad)
Calculator Looks Like Piano Keyboard
Calculator that looks like a piano keyboard
Piano Keyboard Calculator

New in the Piano World online store (PianoSupplies.com) now.
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyers Guide
Who's Online
47 registered (Baroque Style, alwatson, A2mom, augustm, AndrewJCW, 14 invisible), 1153 Guests and 7 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2264714 - 04/20/14 08:18 PM Understanding Sharps
imustlearn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/14
Posts: 39
Hi Guys and Girls,

Since I'm currently teaching myself how to play and don't have access to ask someone face to face .

I have 2 question ;

Q1 : Can someone tell me if I have colored the notes in red correctly that needs to be played as a sharp ? - Sheet attached

http://tinypic.com/r/2d1p6ja/8

Q2 : Same rule applies to flats correct ?


Any help much appreciated.
_________________________
Casio PX850

Top
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2264728 - 04/20/14 08:35 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
No, it's not right. Please notice the accidentals for each measure.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2264733 - 04/20/14 08:44 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
dmd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 2548
Loc: Pennsylvania
Well, in measure 11 you missed some F notes which are on the first space of the treble clef.

You also missed some C notes between the clefs in measure 11.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES8, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur

Top
#2264798 - 04/21/14 12:42 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: A454.7]
imustlearn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/14
Posts: 39
Originally Posted By: A443
No, it's not right. Please notice the accidentals for each measure.


I thought the purpose of accidentals are just for that 1 note ?

E.g if there is a sharp on E , all E's will be played with a sharp , if the following note has an accidental sign that 1 note is played without a sharp ?
_________________________
Casio PX850

Top
#2264801 - 04/21/14 12:51 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
An accidental is for the duration of the measure, or unless further instructed.
...kind of like the federal government/BLM vs. Bundy.

Top
#2264805 - 04/21/14 01:04 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: A454.7]
RUSS SHETTLE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 316
Loc: Brandywine, Maryland
Originally Posted By: A443
An accidental is for the duration of the measure, or unless further instructed.

..kind of like the federal government/BLM vs. Bundy.


Oh man the Bundy news has hit PW.

Yes, accidentals go for the entire measure (just the one) then it resets. However, if the next note (in the same measure) in this case it was (natural) "C", and it shows a #-symbol, that means you go back to it being was it is by key: C#
_________________________
Russ
Yamaha CP5
Casio PX130
Yamaha AP Upright

Top
#2264806 - 04/21/14 01:11 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
peterws Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 5444
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By: imustlearn
Hi Guys and Girls,

Since I'm currently teaching myself how to play and don't have access to ask someone face to face .

I have 2 question ;

Q1 : Can someone tell me if I have colored the notes in red correctly that needs to be played as a sharp ? - Sheet attached

http://tinypic.com/r/2d1p6ja/8

Q2 : Same rule applies to flats correct ?


Any help much appreciated.



You got most right. The rule on sharps and flats is this.

Any sharp or flat added to a note in a bar is played on all affected notes following IN THAT BAR ONLY unless it is reintroduced further down the line. In following bars where the sharp or flat is no longer applicable, the "natural" sign will indicate this also.

Now I know someone`s gonna tell me, sfter all these years, that I just got it wrong . . . (Joe King)

Now then. We all have fun when double sharps and flats appear . . .


Edited by peterws (04/21/14 01:13 AM)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2264862 - 04/21/14 08:08 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
EM Deeka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/13
Posts: 384
Originally Posted By: imustlearn
Originally Posted By: A443
No, it's not right. Please notice the accidentals for each measure.


I thought the purpose of accidentals are just for that 1 note ?

E.g if there is a sharp on E , all E's will be played with a sharp , if the following note has an accidental sign that 1 note is played without a sharp ?



The first rule to follow is that when explicit accidentals are used "an accidental affects every note of the same name and in the same octave within a measure." And "we would need to add a natural sign if we wanted it natural" in the same measure after the note has been sharped or flatted in the measure.

But what you are seeing is the use of Key Signatures. As explained at teoria.com
"When a piece is not in the key of C Major or A Minor, it requires the use of regular accidentals. In order to avoid having to keep writing those accidentals, we can place them at the beginning of the piece using what is known as a key signature.

For instance, a piece in the key of D Major makes regular use of the notes of F-sharp and C-sharp. The key signature of D Major will then utilize those two accidentals; meaning that when this key signature is present, all F and C notes are automatically raised and become sharp notes, unless they are preceded by the symbol of the natural accidental. "

Top
#2264957 - 04/21/14 01:05 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 1219
Loc: USA
It may be easier if you begin by learning the D major scale with 2 black keys at F and C (that's all the F and C's). When you are feeling comfortable with playing the D major scale up and down the keyboard for at least two octaves, then you know the notes for the music requires the same pattern as your scale in terms of where notes fall. You should learn the scales for both hands separately and practice it each time before you practice the actual music. You will no longer need to pick out which notes are white or black for that key signature ahead of time.

Once you've learned the scale of D major, you should pretend the white key at F and C no longer exist anywhere on the keyboard for this piece of music except when there are accidentals for them. A neutral accidental on F means you now play the white F. A sharp accidental on F means you now play the G.
_________________________
Working on RCM 6 | https://soundcloud.com/8octaves

“Most people overestimate what they can do in one year
and underestimate what they can do in ten years.” - Bill Gates


Top
#2264963 - 04/21/14 01:39 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2496
Loc: Virginia, USA
In the theory books we use for teaching the young choristers basic music theory for church choir, this is how accidentals are taught. I like it because it's simple but hits the points very well:

The kids are given a measure with a key signature (doesn't really matter which but let's say it's a single F# - G major). There are four repeated F quarter notes and they are asked things like:

Make one of them an F natural with a single accidental (answer, you put the natural sign before the last one).
Make three of them an F natural with a single accidental (place before the second F)
Make two of them F naturals and two F# using *two* accidentals (answer place a natural before the first and a # before the third)
_________________________
  • Debussy - Le Petit Nègre, L. 114
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

Kawai K3

Top
#2265470 - 04/22/14 07:21 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
imustlearn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/14
Posts: 39
Thanks everyone who gave me advice very much appreciated I think I understand now .
_________________________
Casio PX850

Top
#2265501 - 04/22/14 07:59 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: 8 Octaves]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3620
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Eight Octaves
Once you've learned the scale of D major, you should pretend the white key at F and C no longer exist anywhere on the keyboard for this piece of music except when there are accidentals for them. A neutral accidental on F means you now play the white F. A sharp accidental on F means you now play the G.

The last sentence is incorrect. A sharp accidental on F, in any key, means you play the black key F#. To turn the F into a G you would need a double sharp accidental.
_________________________
Elie Wiesel, 1928-2016.

Top
#2265573 - 04/22/14 09:52 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: PianoStudent88]
dmd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 2548
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Originally Posted By: Eight Octaves
Once you've learned the scale of D major, you should pretend the white key at F and C no longer exist anywhere on the keyboard for this piece of music except when there are accidentals for them. A neutral accidental on F means you now play the white F. A sharp accidental on F means you now play the G.

The last sentence is incorrect. A sharp accidental on F, in any key, means you play the black key F#. To turn the F into a G you would need a double sharp accidental.


Yes, that would be my interpretation of that. An accidental does not ADD to the key signature value of that note, it REPLACES it. If the key signature indicates that the F is to be sharped and you see an accidental(#) next to an F note, it is there for emphasis or a reminder but the F note is still played with a single sharp.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES8, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur

Top
#2265576 - 04/22/14 09:55 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8847
Loc: New York City
Correct. This is in contrast to accidentals in a figured bass.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2265655 - 04/23/14 01:03 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: dmd]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 1219
Loc: USA
Thanks for the corrections! thumb
_________________________
Working on RCM 6 | https://soundcloud.com/8octaves

“Most people overestimate what they can do in one year
and underestimate what they can do in ten years.” - Bill Gates


Top
#2265694 - 04/23/14 04:13 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: dmd]
JohnSprung Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 3075
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: dmd
. An accidental does not ADD to the key signature value of that note, it REPLACES it. If the key signature indicates that the F is to be sharped and you see an accidental(#) next to an F note, it is there for emphasis or a reminder but the F note is still played with a single sharp.


I've heard that called a "courtesy" sharp (or flat as the case may be). Editors put them where people commonly make mistakes. Pencil them in if you find yourself making the same mistake over again.
_________________________
-- J.S.

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body.
Then I realized who was telling me this.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

Top
#2265719 - 04/23/14 07:07 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1300
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Also, in measures 5 and 6. the bass clef A's would not be sharp.
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

Top
#2265727 - 04/23/14 07:46 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
wimpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 2081
Loc: The Netherlands
Why hasn't anybody proposed for OP to first learn to identify each key on the keyboard (C-C for all octaves) and then learn the circle of fifths?
That way she never has to guess again, your fingers just find the keys because they know where they are...
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S
ABF Recitals: XXXIV - XXXVIII & Schumann Recital .....

Top
#2265865 - 04/23/14 02:08 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: EM Deeka]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3672
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: EM Deeka
Originally Posted By: imustlearn
Originally Posted By: A443
No, it's not right. Please notice the accidentals for each measure.


I thought the purpose of accidentals are just for that 1 note ?

E.g if there is a sharp on E , all E's will be played with a sharp , if the following note has an accidental sign that 1 note is played without a sharp ?



The first rule to follow is that when explicit accidentals are used "an accidental affects every note of the same name and in the same octave within a measure."


This is correct but can be misleading and editors sometimes ignore it.

I would use a courtesy accidental whenever an octave note is encountered just to make it clear what I wanted played.

Does anybody know why octaves aren't normally affected?
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2266036 - 04/23/14 08:08 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3462
Loc: Western Canada
I would color;

F#'s yellow
C#'s pink
G#'s green
D#'s purple
A#'s red
E#'s orange
B#'s blue

They should be a different color, and not one color for al #'s

(Same colors for flats, and it would start}

Bb's blue
Eb's orange
Ab's red
Db's purple
Gb's green
Cb's pink
Fb's yellow

Just makes it stand out when colored different colors!
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


Top
#2266383 - 04/24/14 11:48 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3672
Loc: Virginia, USA
My daughter is left handed, and constantly runs into solutions that are useless and aggravating.

For example, ever tried to use a can-opener lefthanded? It makes using a scissors seem easy.

And the relevance?

Well, I'm color blind.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2266388 - 04/24/14 11:55 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
wimpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 2081
Loc: The Netherlands
Not useless at all, just a slight modification: make blue grey, red grey, green grey, and so on. ROFL
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S
ABF Recitals: XXXIV - XXXVIII & Schumann Recital .....

Top
#2266592 - 04/24/14 07:39 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3462
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: imustlearn
Hi Guys and Girls,

Since I'm currently teaching myself how to play and don't have access to ask someone face to face .

I have 2 question ;

Q1 : Can someone tell me if I have colored the notes in red correctly that needs to be played as a sharp ? - Sheet attached

http://tinypic.com/r/2d1p6ja/8

Q2 : Same rule applies to flats correct ?
Any help much appreciated.


Measure 5 & 6 you colored with F#'s and they are A's (because the left hand "was" playing in the treble clef position, but has changed "back" to the bass clef sign! (This is easy to point out than to type out for you). So anyways, measure 5 & 6 you have colored red, and that is wrong. So to notice that I would color the bass clef blue, and if it changes to the treble clef, which they did, I would color it pink.

For those students who are trying to see everything. Little color changes can help beginner so much. You will eventually see it all.

For those who are colorblind, well, ... I'm at a lose for words! grin
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


Top
#2266597 - 04/24/14 07:49 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3462
Loc: Western Canada
And in measure 11, you didn't color the C# in the bass clef red. But I would have colored that "pink"! and not red.

I think students miss so much in more ways than one without a good piano teacher! grin


Edited by Diane... (04/24/14 07:52 PM)
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


Top
#2266646 - 04/24/14 09:50 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: Diane...]
EM Deeka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/13
Posts: 384
Originally Posted By: Diane...

I think students miss so much in more ways than one without a good piano teacher! grin


Especially one with the colors !! I have started coloring the keys directly with dry erase markers based on this tip smile

Top
#2266719 - 04/25/14 03:44 AM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
wimpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 2081
Loc: The Netherlands
The colors might give a bit of sixties looks too your sheet music.. You might want to put flowers and other ornamentations in as well..


Edited by wimpiano (04/25/14 03:44 AM)
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S
ABF Recitals: XXXIV - XXXVIII & Schumann Recital .....

Top
#2266880 - 04/25/14 12:09 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3462
Loc: Western Canada
hahahahahaha well, laugh now but when you hit the Cx (double sharps) and the
Cbb (C double flats... you'll thank me! wink



_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


Top
#2266930 - 04/25/14 01:29 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: Diane...]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3672
Loc: Virginia, USA
Colored notes actually interfere with my reading.

I have mild synthesia and when I hear notes I see shapes. They aren't colored shapes. My colorblindness is mild, I can see colors is they are bright enough.

So they interrupt the process: see the note, hear the note mentally, see the shape mentally, start to reach for the note and BAM see the color.

My handbell ringers sometimes put a circle around the left hand note and a triangle around the right. (the ones who don't read music.)
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2267014 - 04/25/14 04:18 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: imustlearn]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 13315
Loc: Canada
How about if students (and musicians) devise the symbols and cues that they find works for them, if and when they need them.

The first time I took lessons it was on another instrument, and this is where I cut my teeth on what does and doesn`t work for me. My first bid for independence is when I started photocopying my pieces so I could have a clean copy at home. The reason was that when my teacher put in reminders like fingerings for certain notes, intervals (^ for half step) or shifts, these became crutches and I was not reading the music. What worked for me was having the marked up music AND the clean music because then I could check myself.

In the next phase I actually went the opposite direction. I made multiple copies of the music, and then marked up each page in a different way, for seeing different things in the music. But these were MY symbols that worked for me. (And for anyone with synthesia, colours absolutely would not work.)

When I was first trying to get at key signatures and the specific note being affected, I did use colour, but I coloured the line or space. smile The way it felt to me, was that this line had a "magical current" running through it which made each note climb or descend a semitone. An accidental interrupted the "magical current" with even greater magic, or perhaps it acted as a circuit breaker. laugh

Top
#2267050 - 04/25/14 05:21 PM Re: Understanding Sharps [Re: keystring]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3462
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: keystring
How about if students (and musicians) devise the symbols and cues that they find works for them, if and when they need them.


Yes, it is a crutch! Just a learning tool to be used temporarily. Whether it's to learn notes, or sharps & flats!
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
Piano Summit 2017 - Join Us!
along with Chick Corea, Jonathan Cain, David Rosenthal, Set Rudetsky, Ray Chew, Onree Gill ...
-------------------
Why Do YOU Play the Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pianist Magazine
Pianist Magazine - Helping you become a better player
(ad)
Defining National Piano Schools
Defining National Piano Schools
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ads)
PD - WNG - MH
PianoDisc
New Topics - Multiple Forums
NH vs GHS vs casio Scaled hammer action (casio)
by Bolster
07/30/16 03:47 AM
"Sugar coating" needling?
by tirta
07/30/16 03:35 AM
EBVT for Concerts, Revisited
by Cinnamonbear
07/30/16 12:28 AM
Dgx 630 vs px130
by Bolster
07/29/16 11:57 PM
DD wants to pursue a career in piano
by Momz
07/29/16 11:50 PM
Forum Stats
84,461 Registered Members
44 Forums
174,222 Topics
2,544,057 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2016 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission