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#2259431 - 04/10/14 12:03 AM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Is the Faerie's Aire the record for most notes on a page?
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#2259453 - 04/10/14 01:10 AM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
I would think a symphony since it usually has 2 pages in 1 when you look at the PDF would have the most notes per page, especially when there are a lot of instruments like in Mozart's Symphony no. 40. Now Symphony no. 1 in Eb would definitely not have the most notes per page. It has even less notes than that K 545 per page on average mostly because there are a lot of halves and wholes in it whereas with his 40th symphony it is mostly quarters, eights, sixteenths, and 32nds even though the woodwinds start off with whole notes, and a similar thing for the K 545. In fact I could count the number of each type of note from 32nd and possibly 64th per measure of all 3 of those and give you the average per measure and a similar thing for average per page and average per movement. Now if I were to do that I would have to take triplets into concern because some of Mozart's works have triplets and I bet that at least 1 of his symphonies has triplets.

I could also probably look at all of Mozart's works not transcribed and figure out how many total of each type of note from 256th(he did use this in at least 1 of his works) to double whole(I think he might have used this) including dotted, double dotted, and triplets and other tuplets but mainly triplets because triplets are most commonly used out of all the tuplets there are, and divide that sum of each type of note(by this I mean I count them separately and take their sums separately) by 626 + x(626 from largest kochel number, x because he made more music than just 626) and give you the average(arithmetic mean), median, mode, variance, MAD(mean absolute deviation), and SD(standard deviation) of each type of note in Mozart's works.


Edited by caters (04/10/14 01:26 AM)

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#2259463 - 04/10/14 01:44 AM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
phantomFive Offline
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Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1381
Loc: California
Weird thing is, if I'm going to spend effort playing a song, I'd rather spend the effort playing Fairie's Aire instead of the Ligeti etude
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#2259468 - 04/10/14 02:01 AM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: Polyphonist]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Is the Faerie's Aire the record for most notes on a page?


Well, who would want to turn pages with the Faerie's Aire?
But yes, it looks very "crowded".
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#2259475 - 04/10/14 02:29 AM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
I don't think it is the record for most notes per page for the reason that my previous post says.

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#2259511 - 04/10/14 04:41 AM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: caters]
Verbum mirabilis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 208
Originally Posted By: caters
I would think a symphony since it usually has 2 pages in 1 when you look at the PDF would have the most notes per page, especially when there are a lot of instruments like in Mozart's Symphony no. 40. Now Symphony no. 1 in Eb would definitely not have the most notes per page. It has even less notes than that K 545 per page on average mostly because there are a lot of halves and wholes in it whereas with his 40th symphony it is mostly quarters, eights, sixteenths, and 32nds even though the woodwinds start off with whole notes, and a similar thing for the K 545. In fact I could count the number of each type of note from 32nd and possibly 64th per measure of all 3 of those and give you the average per measure and a similar thing for average per page and average per movement. Now if I were to do that I would have to take triplets into concern because some of Mozart's works have triplets and I bet that at least 1 of his symphonies has triplets.

I could also probably look at all of Mozart's works not transcribed and figure out how many total of each type of note from 256th(he did use this in at least 1 of his works) to double whole(I think he might have used this) including dotted, double dotted, and triplets and other tuplets but mainly triplets because triplets are most commonly used out of all the tuplets there are, and divide that sum of each type of note(by this I mean I count them separately and take their sums separately) by 626 + x(626 from largest kochel number, x because he made more music than just 626) and give you the average(arithmetic mean), median, mode, variance, MAD(mean absolute deviation), and SD(standard deviation) of each type of note in Mozart's works.


A symphony will definitely have lots of notes per page, but a Mozart symphony? A lot of instruments? Yes, a late Mozart symphony definitely as more instruments and notes/page than an early Mozart symphony but the orchestras of Mozart's time were relatively small.

BTW, this thread is going in interesting directions.
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#2259536 - 04/10/14 06:59 AM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
jdw Offline
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Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 971
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
For all its fiendish difficulty, the Faerie's Aire is worth it for that sublime moment when the penguins enter. However, there's been controversy about whether this should happen in measure 5 or measure 7.9.
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#2259538 - 04/10/14 07:04 AM Re: The hardest song ever written [Re: ando]
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7840
Originally Posted By: ando
The 14A etude does nothing for me, musically speaking. The only reason I think somebody would attempt it is because it's known to be Ligeti's "unplayable etude".


It is published "for player piano (ad lib. living pianist)", so there's some question about whether it's even hard at all, since it should pose no difficulty for a player piano. I notice that Idil Biret has recorded it in "living pianist" format, but I haven't heard her performance.

But about your comment - isn't it at least possible that someone else might find it musically interesting enough to attempt it, rather than just because it's "unplayable"? I rather like it in this very playable player piano performance, which was made by the person Ligeti entrusted it to (the sound quality of the video is not so great, unfortunately). I'll admit that the Nancarrow pieces I've listened to over the years may have acclimatized my ear to this kind of stuff...


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#2259559 - 04/10/14 08:06 AM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 557
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Weird thing is, if I'm going to spend effort playing a song, I'd rather spend the effort playing Fairie's Aire instead of the Ligeti etude


laugh
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#2259690 - 04/10/14 12:34 PM Re: The hardest song ever written [Re: phantomFive]
caters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: wr
I know that you know "song" is incorrect usage, so using it deliberately looks a lot like you are trying to troll the forum. We'll see how that goes....with luck, the thread will die a quick and relatively painless death.

And anyway, topics about "the most" whatever are inane by definition, since there is no way to determine "hardest", "greatest", "saddest", "best", etc. Yeah, I know, some threads of that sort get a lot of responses (including mine), but that doesn't mean they aren't stupid - they are.



I don't think there is any piano piece ever written that is harder to play. The etudes are famous for their extreme difficulty, so it's not just me here


Piano quartet(2 pianos 8 hands) of Symphony no. 40 by Mozart is hard just like the orchestral version is, in fact it is harder than the orchestral version. Same thing for piano duet of same piece compared to piano quartet and piano solo compared to piano duet. What makes them harder is the fact that with each one you have less and less players to make the symphony sound like the original symphony but on the given instruments. To get a true symphony no. 40 on the piano you would need 14 people on at least 7 pianos with these assignments:
Primo Piano 1: flute part
Secendo Piano 1: Oboe 1
Primo Piano 2: oboe 2
Secendo Piano 2: Bb clarinet 1(meaning you have to transpose everything down a half step since Bb is C on the Bb clarinet)
Primo piano 3: Bb clarinet 2:
Secendo piano 3: Bassoon 1
Primo piano 4: Bassoon 2
Secendo piano 4: Horn 1(Bb, Eb, or G horn meaning you have to transpose everything down by the difference between the note that is C on the original instrument and that same place of the staff on the piano)
Primo piano 5: Horn 2(Eb or G)
Secendo piano 5: 1st violins
Primo piano 6: 2nd violins
Secondo piano 6: Violas
Primo piano 7: Cellos
Secendo Piano 7: Contrabasses

And as you can see you would need pianos that are extended down to C in the subcontra if there is anything in the contra octave in the contrabass part. Also 2 people both playing treble and 2 people both playing bass is simply not possible because of too much overlap so you would need more than 7 pianos but the assignment would be very similar. Because of that while symphony no. 40 piano xtet might be harder in practice than a piano duet version, it is much easier once mastered than the piano duet version and sounds just like the symphony transcribed for the piano in a way that piano players are able to play every single note of the symphony.

Extended pianos and quarter tone pianos thankfully do exist and so it is actually possible to make symphony no. 40 sound exactly like the original but all on the piano. I could even do this with the equivalent of 7 piano duets on musescore(thats because unlike true pianists musescore does not mind overlap).


Edited by caters (04/10/14 12:40 PM)

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#2259698 - 04/10/14 12:41 PM Re: The hardest song ever written [Re: phantomFive]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
ha
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Polyphonist

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#2259704 - 04/10/14 12:45 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: wr]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1381
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: wr
But about your comment - isn't it at least possible that someone else might find it musically interesting enough to attempt it, rather than just because it's "unplayable"? I rather like it in this very playable player piano performance,

Mainly I suspect you're trolling
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2259706 - 04/10/14 12:46 PM Re: The hardest song ever written [Re: phantomFive]
caters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8nuy1t329g shows the whole symphony no. 40 sheet music as the pictures so that you get the idea of where in the symphony the players are but this is the kind of 7 or more pianos playing the whole symphony no. 40 thing I am talking about. That link is only the 1st movement but in the playlist it says next in playlist 2nd movement of the same symphony transcribed to piano and than after that 3rd in the playlist and than 4th in the playlist. This is part of a playlist that has piano transcriptions of some of Mozart's pieces.

You might think at first that this is some kind of quartet or duet but actually it is neither one nor is it solo(that's a little abvious). I think that it isn't a quartet and I know it isn't a duet because I have listened to duets of this exact same symphony and those duets don't sound the way this sounds. This actually sounds like every single note of the symphony played on 7 or more pianos.


Edited by caters (04/10/14 12:51 PM)

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#2259708 - 04/10/14 12:50 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4777
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: wr
But about your comment - isn't it at least possible that someone else might find it musically interesting enough to attempt it, rather than just because it's "unplayable"? I rather like it in this very playable player piano performance,

Mainly I suspect you're trolling

wr doesn't troll.

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#2259709 - 04/10/14 12:53 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: caters]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1381
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: caters
I would think a symphony since it usually has 2 pages in 1 when you look at the PDF would have the most notes per page, especially when there are a lot of instruments like in Mozart's Symphony no. 40. Now Symphony no. 1 in Eb would definitely not have the most notes per page. It has even less notes than that K 545 per page on average mostly because there are a lot of halves and wholes in it whereas with his 40th symphony it is mostly quarters, eights, sixteenths, and 32nds even though the woodwinds start off with whole notes, and a similar thing for the K 545. In fact I could count the number of each type of note from 32nd and possibly 64th per measure of all 3 of those and give you the average per measure and a similar thing for average per page and average per movement. Now if I were to do that I would have to take triplets into concern because some of Mozart's works have triplets and I bet that at least 1 of his symphonies has triplets.

Orchestral scores tend to have a lot of empty space since most of the time the instruments aren't all playing together.

See the interesting perspective of this famous piece for example:




Here is the score of Mozart symphony 40 for comparison:
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usim...minor__K550.pdf
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Poetry is rhythm.

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#2259728 - 04/10/14 01:22 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
caters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
I know but to play the whole symphony no. 40 by Mozart on the piano like I gave the link to the first movement of you would need more than 7 pianos because what happens if 2 people are playing the same note? You would need more pianos otherwise there will be a few notes missing.

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#2259740 - 04/10/14 01:31 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Better make it about 60 pianos, one for every instrument in the orchestra.
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Polyphonist

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#2259741 - 04/10/14 01:32 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
caters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
but some instruments play the same notes so thats why I am going on the lesser end to simplify things.

By this I mean all the flutes play the same notes as other flutes, all the 1st violins play the same notes as other 1st violins etc.


Edited by caters (04/10/14 01:34 PM)

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#2259753 - 04/10/14 01:45 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: caters]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: caters
Iyou would need more than 7 pianos because what happens if 2 people are playing the same note? You would need more pianos otherwise there will be a few notes missing.
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Polyphonist

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#2259800 - 04/10/14 02:45 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4777
Loc: USA
Troll.

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#2259899 - 04/10/14 05:48 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
AtomicBond Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/13
Posts: 62
This



(ok, not really, but it's still amazing smile and you have to admit but some of Animenz's arrangements are some of the hardest ever, especially as he writes many of them in a week of less)


edit: or this one


Edited by AtomicBond (04/10/14 06:00 PM)

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#2259929 - 04/10/14 07:02 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: caters]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5110
Originally Posted By: caters
I know but to play the whole symphony no. 40 by Mozart on the piano like I gave the link to the first movement of you would need more than 7 pianos because what happens if 2 people are playing the same note? You would need more pianos otherwise there will be a few notes missing.

You don't need all that.

Hummel shows how to do it: http://youtu.be/DyB1dUouCq8
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"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2259933 - 04/10/14 07:21 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
caters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
With all the notes and all the instruments in symphony no. 40, to not miss a single note of the symphony you do need 7 or more pianos. Those ones with less pianos always miss some of the notes of the Symphony no. 40.

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#2259937 - 04/10/14 07:27 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4777
Loc: USA
You also need two pianos when both treble and bass clef press the same note at once. How else are you supposed to do that?

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#2259939 - 04/10/14 07:31 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
You also need two pianos when both treble and bass clef press the same note at once. How else are you supposed to do that?

thumb
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Polyphonist

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#2259956 - 04/10/14 08:13 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
caters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
Okay but what if you have 2 treble clefs overlapping or 2 bass clefs overlapping? You would also need two pianos in those scenarios.

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#2259959 - 04/10/14 08:20 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4777
Loc: USA
Why not just get 88 pianos? One for each key. That should solve the problem.

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#2259961 - 04/10/14 08:21 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
No, that'll never do. What if there are 89 instruments playing the same note?
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Polyphonist

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#2259962 - 04/10/14 08:26 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: phantomFive]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4777
Loc: USA
You're right.

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#2259965 - 04/10/14 08:32 PM Re: The hardest piano piece ever written [Re: JoelW]
caters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Why not just get 88 pianos? One for each key. That should solve the problem.


Polyphonist is right and what if there is contra octave written in contrabass which sounds an octave lower than written? You would need in that case pianos extended down to C in the subcontra and those do exist but are more expensive than the regular ones.

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