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#2264903 - 04/21/14 10:43 AM It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule.
Brad Hoehne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 375
Loc: Ohio
The gist of this article is that there seems to be a lot of evidence to suggest that total amount of time spent practicing a given skill is not the optimum way of determining progress. >How< one groups learning tasks is critically important.

It turns out that a single, say, four hour practice session of one subject followed by another of a second subject is not nearly as efficient at instilling long term retention as a group of small, interleaved, practices of both subjects despite the fact that the former >seems< more efficient to the practicer.

Also, "generalized" practicing seems to pay more long term dividends than specific practice at a target skill. The article gives an example of students learning to throw a bean bag into a hole three feet away. Those that practiced learning to hit a hole four feet and two feet away did far better, in the long term, than those who specifically practiced only with a target at three feet.

How would folks apply this to piano practice? Do we "jump around" in a given piece, or do we learn a bunch of pieces at the same time? Is it enough to focus on different elements of a given piece, or do we need to choose other, very different, works to make progress. Are scales a kind of "generalized practice" or does a variety of repertoire fit the bill?

http://www.salon.com/2014/04/20/ditch_th...ce_falls_short/


Edited by Brad Hoehne (04/21/14 10:49 AM)
_________________________
1999 Petrof 125-111 (upright)
Casio Privia PX-330

Currently working on:
Chopin Etudes op 10 #12 "Revolutionary" and op 25 #2
Chopin Nocturne op 37 #2
Playing by ear and "filling out" pop tunes

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#2264921 - 04/21/14 11:15 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5549
Originally Posted By: Brad Hoehne

...... "generalized" practicing seems to pay more long term dividends than specific practice at a target skill. The article gives an example of students learning to throw a bean bag into a hole three feet away. Those that practiced learning to hit a hole four feet and two feet away did far better, in the long term, than those who specifically practiced only with a target at three feet.

How would folks apply this to piano practice? Do we "jump around" in a given piece, or do we learn a bunch of pieces at the same time? Is it enough to focus on different elements of a given piece, or do we need to choose other, very different, works to make progress. Are scales a kind of "generalized practice" or does a variety of repertoire fit the bill?

I've not practised scales and arpeggios in isolation since I no longer had any teacher, i.e. since my early twenties. Yet I've continued to learn and master progressively more difficult music over the years, and I now play the favourites from my 'teacher years' much better than I did back then.

I think the key is to keep challenging oneself by learning more difficult repertoire. Composers will always find ways of challenging the hapless pianist who think that they're ready to conquer the world once they've mastered Czerny's School of Velocity etc. grin. (Before Ravel's Scarbo, whoever thought of scales in seconds?) By learning works - preferably a few at the same time - that makes extra demands on one's technique, you'll keep improving and find that your new skills transfer well to other music.

However, with beginners, I don't think there's any way around acquiring scale and arpeggio technique with a systemic approach, if you want to develop the all-round technique that classical music requires. You can see many self-taught jazzers who can't play stuff that any intermediate classical pianist would easily toss off. The former can do very well what they keep playing and practising - their favorite licks and LH jumps and so forth, but because they haven't had a systemic approach to acquiring piano technique, they falter in anything else.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2264962 - 04/21/14 01:29 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
jdw Online   content
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Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 1038
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
I like this. I've always felt that my short attention span must be good for something smile!

I'll take it to confirm my practice of switching to something else as soon as I feel at all tired of what I'm doing.

I think what's best to switch to depends on what you're trying to learn. For instance, if working on learning notes in one piece, I would "interleave" that with a different piece where there were issues of technique or interpretation. My guess is that the style of the piece matters less than the type of task.

But I think at a micro level, this also reinforces the usual advice I've seen about practicing and memorizing: to work in small bites, then move on to the next place.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2264985 - 04/21/14 03:15 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
The idea of "varied practice" is not new. It's extremely valuable in piano practice, and anyone that tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varied_practice
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v13/n8/full/nn.2596.html
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2265002 - 04/21/14 04:15 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
TwoSnowflakes Online   blank
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Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1423
There's also the concept of quality of practice. I was reading an interesting book a couple of years ago about how we learn, and it wasn't specifically about music, but touched on what characteristics you see in those who have achieved virtuosity.

The extensive practice, sure, but the WAY these folks practiced was different. We are all extremely rigorous and creative about the initial learning of anything. In other words, there seems to be a beginner's mind--we're incredibly receptive to correction, think rigorously about detail, and pay an incredible amount of undivided attention to the task at hand. But after a while we hit a "competence" threshhold, and after that, we tend not to approach the task in the same way. We might get better over time, but we do so much more slowly. Those who achieve virtuosity seem to have figured out how to keep their brains geared as a beginner almost the whole way through.

The example was: after people learn to type at a sufficiently useful speed, they stop getting faster. Now, of course, nobody really NEEDS to become a virtuoso typist, but in most jobs, like it or not, folks get plenty of practice typing. Every day, usually. For decades. Even if you don't consciously try to get faster, one might assume, simply because of the sheer exposure to the task, you'd get at least moderately faster over the years. But we don't. We stay at whatever level of competence we felt was good enough and that is that.

And this, for better or for worse, is a good thing. It takes a lot of mental resources to learn at the same rate at all times. We are designed to start tapering off the extremely comprehensive effort into any given task as soon as we see enough progress to be useful.

But this, of course, means that for piano, just regular practice isn't going to yield that much in the way of results after a while. Without CONSTANTLY trying to reinhabit the beginner's learning mindset, we see very little if any improvement once we pass the competence threshhold.

In other words, 10,000 hours of practice means nothing without evaluating what kind of practicing is going on.
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suite BWV 814 No. 3
Chopin, Fantaisie-Impromptu Op. post. 66
Tchaikovsky, Mars: Chante de l'alouette Op. 37a No. 3

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#2265120 - 04/21/14 10:22 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
Francisco Scalco Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 381
Originally Posted By: TwoSnowflakes
There's also the concept of quality of practice. I was reading an interesting book a couple of years ago about how we learn, and it wasn't specifically about music, but touched on what characteristics you see in those who have achieved virtuosity.

The extensive practice, sure, but the WAY these folks practiced was different. We are all extremely rigorous and creative about the initial learning of anything. In other words, there seems to be a beginner's mind--we're incredibly receptive to correction, think rigorously about detail, and pay an incredible amount of undivided attention to the task at hand. But after a while we hit a "competence" threshhold, and after that, we tend not to approach the task in the same way. We might get better over time, but we do so much more slowly. Those who achieve virtuosity seem to have figured out how to keep their brains geared as a beginner almost the whole way through.

The example was: after people learn to type at a sufficiently useful speed, they stop getting faster. Now, of course, nobody really NEEDS to become a virtuoso typist, but in most jobs, like it or not, folks get plenty of practice typing. Every day, usually. For decades. Even if you don't consciously try to get faster, one might assume, simply because of the sheer exposure to the task, you'd get at least moderately faster over the years. But we don't. We stay at whatever level of competence we felt was good enough and that is that.

And this, for better or for worse, is a good thing. It takes a lot of mental resources to learn at the same rate at all times. We are designed to start tapering off the extremely comprehensive effort into any given task as soon as we see enough progress to be useful.

But this, of course, means that for piano, just regular practice isn't going to yield that much in the way of results after a while. Without CONSTANTLY trying to reinhabit the beginner's learning mindset, we see very little if any improvement once we pass the competence threshhold.

In other words, 10,000 hours of practice means nothing without evaluating what kind of practicing is going on.


This was a very interesting analogy. It does make perfect sense.

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#2265146 - 04/21/14 11:52 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1780
Loc: California
Sometimes chess players get worse at chess when they play more games....one guy played 60,000 games and his rating went down over that period.

Which further emphasizes that how you practice matters more than how much. Playing alone won't make you better.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2265578 - 04/22/14 09:57 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
Roland The Beagle Offline
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Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 256
Loc: California
I've always noticed that if I work on one particular thing for too long I get fatigued with it, and it always made intuitive sense to me to switch to something else where I can maintain a better learning state rather than grinding away at that particular thing. I thought I was being lazy and undisciplined or whatever but I've been improving pretty fast for an adult learner...
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Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2265675 - 04/23/14 02:21 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
AtomicBond Offline
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Registered: 03/29/13
Posts: 64
Just to put this in there, I got to 7th grade on an average of half an hour a day.
I'm now doing 8th grade (on half an hour a day) and making considerable progress.
Around 5th grade I was doing an hour a day and going worse than I do now. It's not so much about the time spent practicing, but the quality spent practicing

Most of my practice has been in a large room with people shouting over me, talking, walking around and generally being annoying. It never stopped me smile

It's very important to say though, that I definitely do not recommend you do the same! It works for me, find what works for you


Edited by AtomicBond (04/23/14 05:34 AM)

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#2265690 - 04/23/14 03:44 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: AtomicBond]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1651
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: AtomicBond
ost of my practice has been in a large room with people shouting over me, talking, walking around and generally being annoying. I never stopped me smile


That's the best possible practice if you're going to play cocktail bar piano.
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-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2265700 - 04/23/14 04:46 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: AtomicBond]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: AtomicBond
Just to put this in there, I got to 7th grade on an average of half an hour a day.
I'm now doing 8th grade (on half an hour a day) and making considerable progress.
Around 5th grade I was doing an hour a day and going worse than I do now. It's not so much about the time spent practicing, but the quality spent practicing

Yep, its also to do with reaching the point of diminishing returns. The longer you can practice without reaching this point, the better control you have over your mind. This comes with experience and focus.

I play for at least 3 or 4 hours in a day but each session for not more than 15 or 20 minutes. My concentration starts slipping beyond 20 minutes.

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#2265804 - 04/23/14 11:35 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: noobpianist90]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1780
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: noobpianist90
Originally Posted By: AtomicBond
Just to put this in there, I got to 7th grade on an average of half an hour a day.
I'm now doing 8th grade (on half an hour a day) and making considerable progress.
Around 5th grade I was doing an hour a day and going worse than I do now. It's not so much about the time spent practicing, but the quality spent practicing

Yep, its also to do with reaching the point of diminishing returns. The longer you can practice without reaching this point, the better control you have over your mind. This comes with experience and focus.

I play for at least 3 or 4 hours in a day but each session for not more than 15 or 20 minutes. My concentration starts slipping beyond 20 minutes.

Wow, go do some exercise or something so you can improve your concentration. You should be able to do better than that.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2265818 - 04/23/14 12:06 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5659
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Last week I found a couple of blogs addressing the "not too long on one thing" aspect of learning (and, as an aside, I believe the original research on 10k hours did specifiy "focused hours" - maybe not those exact words, but certainly intentional practice - ah, I believe it was "deliberate practice"):

Bork - Interleaved practice

Bulletproof musician - importance of run throughs

The Bork article says that performance, in the short term, is not an indicator of long-term learning.

In the run throughs article it seems that practicing *recalling* the music is important, so that with shorter practices one not only practices the skill itself, one practices bringing it from long-term to current memory, and that reinforces long-term learning.

Cathy


Edited by jotur (04/23/14 12:10 PM)
Edit Reason: deliberate practice

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#2265845 - 04/23/14 01:15 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: phantomFive]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Wow, go do some exercise or something so you can improve your concentration. You should be able to do better than that.
I get home pretty late at night and I'm super tired after work, so that's all I can manage right now.

I do manage to get some mental practice done while travelling, so its fine laugh


Edited by noobpianist90 (04/23/14 01:21 PM)

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#2265853 - 04/23/14 01:47 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 854
Loc: UK, Brighton
I consider myself lucky if I get to the end of a piece without getting *too* distracted grin I'll repeat what a lot of people here have said; deviation from a limited routine likely breeds general competence, but, um, I'll say from my own experience that if there is no structure to practice or performance whatsoever then there won't be any skill that is anything more than competent and many will be much less than such. Still...to each...their own...? laugh
Xxx
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#2265866 - 04/23/14 02:09 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
RonDrotos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 82
Loc: New York City
I've found that different approaches have helped me at different times. In general, mixing it up is a very good idea. And remember to also mix up difficulty levels. For instance, if you want to become a fluent sightreader, read through challenging music slowly, but also easy music at a faster tempo. Also spend time reading contrapuntal ("horizontal") music as well as chorales and other "vertical" pieces. And be sure to include music from different eras and genres.

The above approach could be applied to whatever you want to learn at the piano. As another example, if you want to become a Chopin expert, be sure to also practice Bach. Not only did Chopin himself play Bach, but Chopin uses voiceleading in a wonderful way, that might not be obvious at first. By experiencing so much voiceleading in Bach, you'll be more sensitive to it wherever it occurs, like in Chopin.

Good luck!
_________________________
Ron Drotos
rondrotos@keyboardimprov.com

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#2265951 - 04/23/14 05:34 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: FSO]
hreichgott Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1277
Loc: western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: FSO
to each...their own...? laugh

Pretty much. I know some people who swear by the interleaved practice thing. It would never work for me. I hate interruptions.

It's definitely true that there is a magic point at about 15-20 minutes where content makes the transition from short term memory to long term memory -- so if you want to keep what you're working on, either interleave multiple tasks for a period longer than 15-20 minutes, or stick with a single task for longer than that.

I like spending an hour on each piece then playing it through at the end of the hour, then moving on to next piece, but I have an obsessive degree of focus with regard to the piano.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Working on: Schumann/Kinderszenen
Daily 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2, Pischna
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2265964 - 04/23/14 05:50 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: hreichgott]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: hreichgott

It's definitely true that there is a magic point at about 15-20 minutes where content makes the transition from short term memory to long term memory.

Is it? Short term memory does not have the capacity to store information for longer than seconds. The reader should be aware that the above statement is indeed untrue.

Perhaps you're misinterpreting what is known as synaptic consolidation, which I encourage any curious mind to learn about.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2266083 - 04/23/14 09:10 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
hreichgott Offline
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Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1277
Loc: western MA, USA
The above information came from graduate level coursework in pedagogy.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Working on: Schumann/Kinderszenen
Daily 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2, Pischna
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2266085 - 04/23/14 09:12 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: hreichgott]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
The above information came from graduate level coursework in pedagogy.

Well that's unfortunate that you were taught that, because it's not backed by modern science. Courses (even web searches) in neuroscience and psychology are great starting points for learning about how the brain works.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2266148 - 04/23/14 10:39 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
http://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.6.5

Perhaps hreichgott is referring to working memory and not short term memory?


Edited by noobpianist90 (04/23/14 10:45 PM)

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#2266149 - 04/23/14 10:40 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Atrys]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1780
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
The above information came from graduate level coursework in pedagogy.

Well that's unfortunate that you were taught that, because it's not backed by modern science. Courses (even web searches) in neuroscience and psychology are great starting points for learning about how the brain works.

It's very possible that what hriechgott learned in a graduate level course on pedagogy is more accurate than what you learned in a neuroscience web search (or undergraduate class, for that matter).
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2266155 - 04/23/14 10:48 PM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: phantomFive]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: phantomFive

It's very possible that what hriechgott learned in a graduate level course on pedagogy is more accurate than what you learned in a neuroscience web search (or undergraduate class, for that matter).

It's possible but not very possible. Pedagogy courses are filled with all sorts of this nonsense that directly contradict known facts. It's unfortunate, really, but there's progress in getting all of the crap out.


Edited by Atrys (04/23/14 10:48 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2266184 - 04/24/14 12:03 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Atrys]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1780
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: phantomFive

It's very possible that what hriechgott learned in a graduate level course on pedagogy is more accurate than what you learned in a neuroscience web search (or undergraduate class, for that matter).

It's possible but not very possible. Pedagogy courses are filled with all sorts of this nonsense that directly contradict known facts. It's unfortunate, really, but there's progress in getting all of the crap out.

You aren't nitpicking for not distinguishing between 'short term memory' and 'working memory' are you?
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2266187 - 04/24/14 12:10 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: phantomFive]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: phantomFive

You aren't nitpicking for not distinguishing between 'short term memory' and 'working memory' are you?

Of course not, but that doesn't change anything. Feel free to cite research that suggests such a 15-20 minute "magical point of transition" exists; I'd be interested.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2266199 - 04/24/14 12:59 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Atrys]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1780
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: phantomFive

You aren't nitpicking for not distinguishing between 'short term memory' and 'working memory' are you?

Of course not, but that doesn't change anything. Feel free to cite research that suggests such a 15-20 minute "magical point of transition" exists; I'd be interested.

I'm going to go with "her graduate class is better than your random musings" lol
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2266211 - 04/24/14 01:30 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: phantomFive]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: phantomFive

I'm going to go with "her graduate class is better than your random musings" lol

Also known as "I like to believe in things without evidence" ha
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2266213 - 04/24/14 01:39 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Atrys]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Also known as "I like to believe in things without evidence" ha

I'd like to see evidence to support the following generalization:
"Pedagogy courses are filled with all sorts of this nonsense that directly contradict known facts"

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#2266214 - 04/24/14 01:44 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: noobpianist90]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: noobpianist90

I'd like to see evidence to support the following generalization:
"Pedagogy courses are filled with all sorts of this nonsense that directly contradict known facts"

Take pedagogy courses, watch technique seminars, read technique books; there are direct contradictions to modern science everywhere.

It's not a deliberate act against knowledge, it's just leftover material from when before we had the knowledge to know better. Already we're seeing, for example, the idea of "strong fingers" rapidly decreasing in proliferation. That's "progress of a kind".
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"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2266216 - 04/24/14 01:52 AM Re: It's not so simple as the 10,000 hour rule. [Re: Brad Hoehne]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
hem... Atrys?

"Evidence" as in not your opinion. grin
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